Japan hit by 9.0 earthquake.

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

IAEA says the Fukushima plant operators are considering removing panels from these last two reactor buildings to prevent a build-up of hydrogen.

That does seem like the obvious solution. Why didn't they do it sooner?

I would guess that it's part of the Japanese psyche to follow the manual to the letter even more than usual in the nuclear industry. Unfortunately, I doubt the manual didn't envisage this particular combination of circumstances with multiple reactors operating outside safety limits after an earthquake 5 times stronger than they were designed to withstand, plus the tsunami on top of that. I can understand the attitude -- things screwed up at Chernobyl and 3-Mile Island because procedures weren't followed properly. Hydrogen detonation is a well known risk of LOCAs so I don't understand why there wasn't a mechanism to deal with it effectively. Perhaps it's related to the loss of power to the plant or damage due to the quake or tsunami.

 

[Niorah]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

How long do these things take to cool down? It seems more problems are developing on reactors that haven't been functioning for several days.

If the cooling system is gone and they can't get water in there, they don't.

Chernobyl hasn't cooled down yet, to give you an idea. And it won't for a looooong time to come, either.

Reactor No. 4 was eventually covered with a cement sarcophagus that will have to remain around it for thousands of years. Already it has cracks and gaps in it and will need to be replaced sooner rather than later. Unbelievably, the last of the remaining three reactors was shut down in Chernobyl in December 2000.

Linky

This is a terrible disaster, if they don't find a way to fix the cooling systems it will be an apocalypse, as Mr. Oettinger put it.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

How long do these things take to cool down? It seems more problems are developing on reactors that haven't been functioning for several days.

The news reports are confusing. Some suggest that it's the fuel rods in the cooling ponds that are the problem with the reactors that weren't in service. I believe the fuel rods are extracted and stored in this way to allow maintenance to be performed on the reactor vessel. However, apparently the rods can still contain enough residual heat energy to cause a problem if they aren't continuous cooled. The fission products (radioactive Caesium and Iodine) can be released if the Zirconium alloy jackets are compromised.

Might have got some details wrong here. I last learned some reactor physics around the time of 3-Mile Island, and decided that area might not present a career path other than cleanup and decommissioning.

ETA: Apparently another fire has broken out at reactor #4. If it is due to exposed fuel rods in the cooling pond, I can only imagine it must feel like one of the circles of hell trying to put those fires out.

 

[Mooch]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

However, apparently the rods can still contain enough residual heat energy to cause a problem if they aren't continuous cooled. The fission products (radioactive Caesium and Iodine) can be released if the Zirconium alloy jackets are compromised.

Sort of. The rods aren't what need to be cooled, the water is. The rods are in the water because it absorbs the radiation (heat) they emit. The radiation makes the water hot. Therefore the water needs to be kept cool or it will boil away (which it is). The rods will cool down as the radioactivity decays away, which takes a few years.

 

[Asbo Zaprudder]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

However, apparently the rods can still contain enough residual heat energy to cause a problem if they aren't continuous cooled. The fission products (radioactive Caesium and Iodine) can be released if the Zirconium alloy jackets are compromised.

Sort of. The rods aren't what need to be cooled, the water is. The rods are in the water because it absorbs the radiation (heat) they emit. The radiation makes the water hot. Therefore the water needs to be kept cool or it will boil away (which it is). The rods will cool down as the radioactivity decays away, which takes a few years.

Well duh.

 

[Jadzia]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

I was talking to some people today about this whole tragedy, and we all felt that Japan is holding back information somehow. They doesn't seem to be enough talking, giving clear enough information about what's going on, or a sense of what the official plans are for getting themselves back on their feet, or generally how things are progressing. Do others here feel this way as well? If so, why do you suppose this is?

 

[John O.]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

Myself and a friend, neither of whom are nuclear engineers (he's a mechanical engineer and I'm an aero) were debating whether Japan's handling this as well as it could and I was just wondering after 22 pages of discussion what the consensus is.

It seems to me that their early refusal of help was at best foolish and at worst recklessly irresponsible. It almost doesn't matter whether it would have made a practical difference, when something as serious as a nuclear disaster that could release lethal doses of radiation into the atmosphere is the "end game" of a worst-case-scenario, it doesn't seem to me like the world can condone an egotistical, isolationist attitude about post-disaster cleanup. I mean it's not like they'd be admitting weakness to accept help. The heavy lift capacity of that country cannot possibly be up to the task of effectively managing 3 simultaneous nationwide disasters on a "once in a millennium" scale.

I don't think anybody can argue that their preparation was insufficient - that's not really the issue in my mind. The first thing out of anyone's mouth regarding defending Japan's handling of the disaster has been "Japan is 20 years ahead of any other country in nuclear disaster safety", but that's just a measure of their pre-disaster preparedness. Maybe that was excellent - but the question remains, how well are they handling the fallout (no pun intended) of a disaster that exceeded the engineering tolerances of a well-designed system? Because the fact is, contingency planning with regard to post-disaster management and "worst-case-scenario" handling of disasters that exceed your design criteria are a part of your disaster preparedness.

From what I've read, they denied early offers of additional heavy lift capacity; but have accepted a donation of 50,000 KIO3 tablets more recently.

Thoughts? Is the Japanese government putting their people in more risk by being too proud to accept assistance? Or am I wrong, has something changed, are they accepting aid?

 

[Jadzia]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

Well here's my theory,

For the first three days, the Japanese keep repeating that they are in control, which is consistent with their culture: Technology, karate, and their social etiquette all have the same underlying themes of control and mastery of the self, of material things, and of their land. This in my opinion is the Japanese identity.

As they come to terms with the scale and depth of this tragedy, the Japanese may be beginning to wonder about their sense of control. Some may see defeat as a challenge to their very identity.

And in this light it may be understandable why they are fiercely independent. As private and polite people, they're not inclined show emotion nor ask for help. We're not going to see large swathes of them sat crying and begging for international aid. But I feel that they need our help probably more than they will show it.

 

[Witterquick]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

Nah, what I get from the situation is that the Japanese government are only releasing limited information to the media but working professionally behind the scenes and communicating openly internally. I also don't get the sense that they're being reluctant to ask for help. I'm sure they're working with international experts as much as possible. I think the 24-hr news mentality of the US is contributing to this general feeling that they aren't sharing enough. Not every country has this practice of sharing every morsel of news to the media and sensationalizing everything.

 

[bigdaddy]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

The USA wants to build a relief base and Japan is being bitchy about size. Do they think we will use this base to invade? Just let us build the fucking base.

 

[Candlelight]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

The USA wants to build a relief base and Japan is being bitchy about size. Do they think we will use this base to invade? Just let us build the fucking base.

Why do they need to build a base? Just use a school or college and convert it.

Then again, the base will be abandoned anyway once the relief effort is over.

 

[Candlelight]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

50 workers have elected to stay behind to try and fight the nuclear meltdown.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10712802

It's highly unlikely they will come out unscathed.

Reminds me of the engine crew in the Titanic. Worked right through to the end while the ship sank around them.

Sadly none of them survived.

 

[Sam McCord]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

You're kidding. Where's that?

Here's a small sample.

http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/5238813/img/Anonymous/1299914762468.jpg

I think it's generous to call this "trolling", and it's not even poor humour. It strikes me as people who actually believe it.

Sweet jesus that's a lot of bitching about Pearl Harbor.

How many Japanese praised the September 11 attacks due to the Doolittle Raids...?

Hmm, none that I can remember...

It's not surprising, since these people are obviously sitting in front of their PC's probably in their undies like comic book guy from the Simpson's and just happened to take time away from looking at kiddie porn to post their senseless rants of bile.

Pay them no mind, for they have obviously misused their own.

 

[Witterquick]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

50 workers have elected to stay behind to try and fight the nuclear meltdown.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10712802

It's highly unlikely they will come out unscathed.

Reminds me of the engine crew in the Titanic. Worked right through to the end while the ship sank around them.

Sadly none of them survived.

It's really unfair to put everything on their shoulders. They can't leave because if they do, there would be no one there. I hope they could get more people and establish some kind of rotation.

 

[pookha]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

there were supposed to have a rotation going on.. a call was put out even for retired workers to come in and help to do so.
my understanding is it is too dangerous for anyone to be in there.
what is conflicting is whether some workers have decided to stay anyway..

 

[pookha]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

I was talking to some people today about this whole tragedy, and we all felt that Japan is holding back information somehow. They doesn't seem to be enough talking, giving clear enough information about what's going on, or a sense of what the official plans are for getting themselves back on their feet, or generally how things are progressing. Do others here feel this way as well? If so, why do you suppose this is?

i dont get that at all.
for one thing they just dont know yet.. they have just been able to get into some of the stricken areas.

they have also been open with how the hit to the supply lines of food and especially fuel is hurting their recovery efforts.

frankly i think there is so much info some of it falls through the cracks.
for instance the japanese early on asked for help from the americans.

people who know reactors believe they have told what they knew at the moment.
one thing they said they were prepared for a certain level of earthquake and tsaumi but not themonster that happend.

they also have issues with no 4 reactor which had been shut for maintennance due to debris falling into it when the earlier explosion happened.

i think the whole thing being the big nasty point 9 plus destructive wall of water that just swept away several villages and part of a city is just so crazy.



oh the us already has an airbase in the area.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

I finally located the e-mail address of a lady I helped tutor in English while her husband worked here in the US. Her family moved back to Japan a few years ago and we lost touch. I believe they moved back to Tokyo, but I am still worried about them. I just sent an e-mail and hope to hear something soon.

 

[Bill Morris]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

We just had another brief 6.0, this time in Chiba Prefecture, east of Tokyo. By the time I got outside it was over, but these things might affect the nuclear situation.

 

[Lindley]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

How long do these things take to cool down? It seems more problems are developing on reactors that haven't been functioning for several days.

If the cooling system is gone and they can't get water in there, they don't.

Chernobyl hasn't cooled down yet, to give you an idea. And it won't for a looooong time to come, either.

As I understand it, Chernobyl went to hell with the reactor still online. In Japan, the control rods were fully inserted----shutting down the fission reaction, effectively----as soon as the earthquake hit.

However, the byproducts of the reaction (cesium and iodine) are still somewhat radioactive. Not nearly as much as the hopefully-no-longer-reacting uranium, but somewhat. They're the primary source of heat at this point, but they decay much faster than uranium does.

 

[Saul]

Re: Japan hit by 8.9 earthquake.

We just had another brief 6.0, this time in Chiba Prefecture, east of Tokyo. By the time I got outside it was over, but these things might affect the nuclear situation.

The quake in Chiba won't effect it. It's too far from there. They'll feel it but it's not going to be a problem.
Another quake in Fukushima wouldn't help and they are still expecting a M7 aftershock in the next few days.

There is white smoke coming from the plant now. We have to wait 4 hours till we are told what this is.