Janeway's Ethics

[Triskelion]

What do you think about them? Was she consistent? If not, do any examples stand out in your memory?



In Equinox, one of the major themes was Distance vs Ethics. The contrast between Captain Janeway adhering to Starfleet principles despite their irrelevance in the quadrant, and Captain Ransom doing "whatever it takes" to get his crew home, at the expense of the lives of aliens and his own crew's integrity.

In this episode we also see this theme in the subplot of the Doctor, who has his ethical subroutines bypassed in order to perform a lethal procedure extracting codes from Seven's cortical node. (Which marks a definitive step toward his humanity by the end of the episode, as they work to give him more control over his ethics).

Janeway tells the aliens: "We have rules for behavior - the Equinox has broken those rules by killing your species. It's our duty to stop them." This also describes the difference between Janeway - and Seska, who would have chosen a more "Equinoxy" command style.


Now, we've heard and seen Janeway subscribe to Ransom's unethical pragmatism in other episodes when it came to choosing between Starfleet principles and her crew's best interest. See episodes like Tuvix (kill somebody), Jetrel (use unethical medicine), The Swarm (violate territory), Mortal Coil (reanimation), Dark Frontier (Ambush a Borg ship), and Endgame (violate timeline).

But she also does the unethical in this very episode Equinox! First, when she threatens Mister Lessing with torture (exposing him to the alien attack) and subsequently throwing Chakotay in the brig for disallowing her to cross the line between right and wrong again (going Ahab).


And later, she tells the aliens:

"If you stop your attacks, I'll deliver the Equinox to you." (Essentially sacrificing the loyal Starfleet crew of that ship). Why, as a punishment? As a demonstration of Starfleet principles - which she interprets as "put alien lives before the lives of your crew"?

There were episodes she would put the lives of her crew in danger, for ethics, for their own good, or other reasons: Caretaker, The Cloud, The Swarm, Nothing Human, and unwittingly, The Killing Game (giving Hirogen Holographic technology), which led to Voyager's near destruction in Flesh and Blood.

Which may be noble and self-sacrificial - or it may just be ego. There are plenty of occasions when she would have left aliens twisting in the wind: 30 Days, The Swarm, Dark Frontier, Dragon's Teeth, Scorpion, and Endgame, for example.


So you could look at it like Janeway is willing to protect alien species from Starfleet's ethical lapses - but she is also willing to sacrifice Starfleet lives in order to demonstrate that the ends justify the means, and that it's up to her alone to make those decisions and bear the consequences of unethical behaviors.


So, in your opinion, does Equinox demonstrate character consistency or inconsistency? Does her character contradict herself when she put Lessing in the torture chamber? And if so, should she have let Ransom off the hook? Or judged herself as guilty as him, and enacted the punishment accordingly?


Also, in your opinion was Chakotay right or wrong to draw the line against his Captain? Here we see his character doing what he should have been doing through the entire seven year run: Standing up, not backing down. Being a Maquis, not an overqualified massage therapist. (I definitely side with Beltran on this).


Thoughts?

 

[hux]

Except Chakotay doesn't stand up to her. He just gives his usual speech about how he will stand up to her.......any minute now.....just you wait.....i'm gonna stand up to you.....i'm warning you......it's coming.....any day now....i'm not kidding....i'm gonna stand up to you if you keep this up Katherine. *yawn*

Janeway is definitely erratic but as i've said on many occasions, i believe that this was intentional. The writers clearly had some concerns about writing a female character (most of them being men) and so they made her inexperienced and made Voyager her first command. For me, this was just in case they screwed up and occasionally wrote her badly leading to an inconsistent character (which is exactly what they did do).

They could always get out of gaol by reminding us that she is inexperienced and a little out of her depth. Her first command and she's lost in space with a huge, difficult journey ahead. They make it clear that she isn't quite ready for this.

She's a good captain but she does tend to struggle with the big calls.

 

[Beawild]

Janeway's supposed flaws (in reality inconsistencies of the writing team), are what make her my favorite captain. It made her human, she was not perfect and agonized over her mistakes and sense of guilt about stranding the crew in the DQ. She was put in an unattainable position. No other Starfleet captain, other than Ransom and we saw what he became, was confronted with a situation like hers. Whenever she could, she did adhere to Starfleet principles. It is understandable that on occasion she had to bend rules and even the Prime Directive, but overall, she maintained the principled and honorable conduct expected of a Starfleet captain.

The exception was her threats against Noah Lessing. What Ransom had done was so against, not only Starfleet rules but common decency too, that she lost objectivity. I'm glad that Chakotay fought against her in this instance. BTW, she didn't send him to the brig. She temporarily released him from duty and sent him to his quarters. As for the crew of the Equinox, she gave them a choice to transport to Voyager. It was Ransom who refused to leave his ship.

I have no issue with what she had to do to Tuvix. It was the only way to separate Tuvok and Neelix, and as captain, she took it upon herself to do the deed. I also have no problem with her giving technology to the Hirogen in hopes that they would adapt their hunting to holograms and not hunt sentient beings.

Like most things in life, one needs to be flexible and adapt to events as they present themselves. All in all, I think that Captain Janeway did better than most other captains would have done under the same circumstances.

 

[bbjeg]

Janeway isn't consistent with following the Prime Directive but a lot of commanding officers throughout Starfleet have been seen disregarding it too (quite a few Admirals come to mind).

Another time when Janeway broke the PD was when she came to Neelix's rescue in his send off episode. His dealings with the other Talaxians and the miners was a civil matter. After seeing that, I thought of when Picard turned the ship around when Worf was under attack on a Klingon ship during their civil war, and Worf was an actual member of Starfleet.

 

[DavidGutierrez]

Janeway is definitely erratic but as i've said on many occasions, i believe that this was intentional. The writers clearly had some concerns about writing a female character (most of them being men) and so they made her inexperienced and made Voyager her first command. For me, this was just in case they screwed up and occasionally wrote her badly leading to an inconsistent character (which is exactly what they did do).

They could always get out of gaol by reminding us that she is inexperienced and a little out of her depth. Her first command and she's lost in space with a huge, difficult journey ahead. They make it clear that she isn't quite ready for this.

I'm curious: what's your source for this claim? I keep seeing this claim that Voyager was Janeway's first command pop up here and there, and I cannot, for the life of me, find the canon to back this up. Where does this notion come from?

 

[MacLeod]

Janeway's supposed flaws (in reality inconsistencies of the writing team), are what make her my favorite captain. It made her human, she was not perfect and agonized over her mistakes and sense of guilt about stranding the crew in the DQ. She was put in an unattainable position. No other Starfleet captain, other than Ransom and we saw what he became, was confronted with a situation like hers. Whenever she could, she did adhere to Starfleet principles. It is understandable that on occasion she had to bend rules and even the Prime Directive, but overall, she maintained the principled and honorable conduct expected of a Starfleet captain.

The exception was her threats against Noah Lessing. What Ransom had done was so against, not only Starfleet rules but common decency too, that she lost objectivity. I'm glad that Chakotay fought against her in this instance. BTW, she didn't send him to the brig. She temporarily released him from duty and sent him to his quarters. As for the crew of the Equinox, she gave them a choice to transport to Voyager. It was Ransom who refused to leave his ship.

I have no issue with what she had to do to Tuvix. It was the only way to separate Tuvok and Neelix, and as captain, she took it upon herself to do the deed. I also have no problem with her giving technology to the Hirogen in hopes that they would adapt their hunting to holograms and not hunt sentient beings.

Like most things in life, one needs to be flexible and adapt to events as they present themselves. All in all, I think that Captain Janeway did better than most other captains would have done under the same circumstances.

Yet years later she had the opportunity to undo strandin her crew in the DQ see "Equinox" she could have travelled back in time and used the caretaker array to send VOY home saving most of her crew. Yet she didin't, she clearly valued some lives more than others.

 

[hux]

I'm curious: what's your source for this claim? I keep seeing this claim that Voyager was Janeway's first command pop up here and there, and I cannot, for the life of me, find the canon to back this up. Where does this notion come from?

Shattered

JANEWAY: That was an interesting experience.
CHAKOTAY: If it makes you feel any better, you're going to develop quite a knack for dealing with the Borg.
JANEWAY: You mean we're going to be seeing more of them?
CHAKOTAY: We'll run into them on a few occasions.
JANEWAY: Why do I get the feeling that's an understatement? It doesn't seem like my first command is shaping up the way I expected.
CHAKOTAY: In the middle of the journey of our life, I found myself astray in a dark wood, where the straight road had been lost.
JANEWAY: I didn't know Dante's Inferno was on the Maquis reading list.
CHAKOTAY: Actually, I borrowed your copy.

To be fair, this dialogue comes in season seven. The writers have hedged their bets a little throughout the show until this point. They obviously chose to make it explicit in this episode to remove any doubt.

Writers: She ain't an experienced captain (because we screwed her up so many times) !!!

 

[TheGoodStuff]

I have posted this before so I'm not going to write a thesis here:

I love Janeway and part of the reason for that love is I actually sympathise with her handling of the Tuvix & Equinox situations. To be frank, I think she was right on both occasions.

Equinox is one of my favourite episodes though it is odd. The writers seem to try and portray Janeway as cracking...but never go all the way with it. Which in turn has me cheering her on for most of the episode. Why? Because as far as I am concerned she is stopping genocide. I understand her fury, her sense of betrayal from a fellow captain [stuck in the same situation she is]. I think she would have been justified in destroying the Equinox to protect the aliens [as she threatens to do].

I understand many hate her actions in the episode, but imagine the Equinox crew throwing Jews, black people, women etc into the engines to "do anything it takes to get home". It is heinous. The episode, as I have said, seems to urge you to think Janeway is losing it [her additional threats to turn the ship around in pursuit of the Equinox etc] but again, I cant help but feel she is utterly justified in her course of action.

Tuvix, meanwhile, is a favourite debate here. As far as I a concerned she saves two mens lives [and thus those who love Tuvok & Neelix] at the expense of one being. Again, I think she is utterly justified.


In reagrds to Janeway's ethics on a broader spectrum, I'm always fascinated by the criticism she receives. Picard watches a planet explode and does nothing, Picard risks the entire ship to chat with the Crystaline entity, Sisko has an innocent Romulan killed, Kirk seems to give no fucks however many crewmen died during the course of an episode as long as his ship is ok and Archer...well...'A Night in Sickbay' says enough about his dog related strops.

 

[hux]

^Picard has the backing of his crew though. That's the major difference. It's not just about the decisions they make, it's about the trust their crew has in them to make those decisions. The Enterprise crew trust Picard and don't actively or openly question what he's doing.

The problem with Janeway is that her crew don't entirely trust her. The first officer regularly questions what she's doing (rightly IMO). Her closest friend and colleague (Tuvok) has mentioned concerns about her decision making process and her weaknesses as a captain. B'Elanna's dislike of her is palpable. The EMH is keeping a record of all her bad decisions.

There is a real tangible sense of "we like her but she's a little out of her depth" that simply doesn't exist with the other captains.

Also, think of the scene when Chakotay intervenes with Lessing outside the cargo bay. She looks at him like a petulant child and walks away. It's the most pathetic (yet hilarious) moment of Trek. I simply see NO other captain behaving like that.

 

[TheGoodStuff]

^Picard has the backing of his crew though. That's the major difference. It's not just about the decisions they make, it's about the trust their crew has in them to make those decisions. The Enterprise crew trust Picard and don't actively or openly question what he's doing.

The problem with Janeway is that her crew don't entirely trust her. The first officer regularly questions what she's doing (rightly IMO). Her closest friend and colleague (Tuvok) has mentioned concerns about her decision making process and her weaknesses as a captain. B'Elanna's dislike of her is palpable. The EMH is keeping a record of all her bad decisions.

There is a real tangible sense of "we like her but she's a little out of her depth" that simply doesn't exist with the other captains.

Also, think of the scene when Chakotay intervenes with Lessing outside the cargo bay. She looks at him like a petulant child and walks away. It's the most pathetic (yet hilarious) moment of Trek. I simply see NO other captain behaving like that.

For Picard having the backing of his crew, sometimes it is not a good thing. The crystaline entity episode i referenced, it is bizarre that they are so cool with his decision. Riker, at least, wonders why the hell they aren't going to just destroy the thing. In TNG, the crew are frequently quite docile with Picard.

The Janeway stare scene is one of my favourite scenes actually, I really like the disdainful look she gives him. In regards to you saying "she is out of her depth" of course she is! As would Picard/Sisko/Kirk be in the same situation! She is 70, 000 lightyears from Earth. No Starfleet, no starbases, no security in what she is doing.

Janeway, for me, has the toughest situation to deal with out of all the captains. She isn't sure what she is doing because she is having to wing it. Many others [like the captain of the Equinox] would disintegrate under the pressure of the situation.

I personally think Janeway's, 'erratic' behaviour can be placed at the feet of the incredibly difficult situation she has been placed in. Which is resuting in her adapating to each situation as she see's fit and I can't blame her for that.

 

[hux]

If Kirk or Picard stared at their second in command like that then stomped off like a child, it would just make them look ridiculous, petty and laughable. Yet with Janeway, it's entirely normal behaviour. The only other captain i can sorta picture doing something like that is Sisko because he was also prone to emotional outbursts.

As for being in the Delta quadrant alone being a justification for her behaviour, that would make some sense IF Voyager was battered and bruised, struggling through unknown space, forced to live on bread and water, battle damaged etc etc

But they're not. It's pretty much a luxury cruise with occasional sight seeing (the sporadic lack of holodeck privileges being the worst thing they had to endure.....the horror). The fact that she loses her shit under such comfortable circumstances whenever big calls need to be made only further highlights her inexperience. She's clearly one of those captains who needs Starfleet to hold her hand.

Being in the Delta quadrant was the making of her. Had she been a normal captain in the Alpha quadrant, i suspect she would have had a pedestrian, forgettable career.

They just couldn't write her well and they knew it. They hedged their bets to begin with but once it was clear that they didn't know what they were doing, they deliberately made her inexperienced and out of her depth as a means of hiding that fact.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Archer got zapped by estrogen and locked up half his crew because they thought he was a shit mum in hatchery.

These things happen.

Janeway killed 20 thousand swarmies in The Swarm to shave 18 months off her journey home. Paris nuked a power plant. Tuvok sole a pan galactic transporter. In these three cases, Janeway ran like a bandit, rather than face alien justice.

Icheb on the other hand much later says "Captain Janeway taught me to respect the laws of other cultures" in Q2, when he handed himself over to some #### who admitted that he was going to execute Icheb for the simple crime of trespass.

B'Elanna tries to teach some robots how to ####, so that they can make babies in prototype. Janeway says it's a prime directive issue, please step away. B'Elanna tells the woman to go #### herself and proceeds with doing what she wants to do, until it all blows up in her face and Janeway is determined to have been right and righteous in the first place, and B'Elanna apologizes well enough to somehow keep her job.

The men writing these stories were alive when Kennedy was shot.

(So were the women obviously, but the women write like men or they don't get work.)

 

[MacLeod]

Tuvix, meanwhile, is a favourite debate here. As far as I a concerned she saves two mens lives [and thus those who love Tuvok & Neelix] at the expense of one being. Again, I think she is utterly justified.

So is it okay to take 100 lives if it saves 101 lives? Esp. when those 100 haven't done anything wrong? At what point does it become unacceptable to take the lives of innocents to save others?

 

[TheGoodStuff]

If Kirk or Picard stared at their second in command like that then stomped off like a child, it would just make them look ridiculous, petty and laughable. Yet with Janeway, it's entirely normal behaviour. The only other captain i can sorta picture doing something like that is Sisko because he was also prone to emotional outbursts.

As for being in the Delta quadrant alone being a justification for her behaviour, that would make some sense IF Voyager was battered and bruised, struggling through unknown space, forced to live on bread and water, battle damaged etc etc

But they're not. It's pretty much a luxury cruise with occasional sight seeing (the sporadic lack of holodeck privileges being the worst thing they had to endure.....the horror). The fact that she loses her shit under such comfortable circumstances whenever big calls need to be made only further highlights her inexperience. She's clearly one of those captains who needs Starfleet to hold her hand.

Being in the Delta quadrant was the making of her. Had she been a normal captain in the Alpha quadrant, i suspect she would have had a pedestrian, forgettable career.

They just couldn't write her well and they knew it. They hedged their bets to begin with but once it was clear that they didn't know what they were doing, they deliberately made her inexperienced and out of her depth as a means of hiding that fact.

Waiting to become 'battered and bruised' is not efficient planning. Regardless of the ship condition, the situation itself required completely different handling. The ship is shown under rationing, traversing Borg space, being harassed by numerous hostile species [Kazon etc] and generally having to face seventy years of hardship. That is not a luxury cruise.

Tuvix, meanwhile, is a favourite debate here. As far as I a concerned she saves two mens lives [and thus those who love Tuvok & Neelix] at the expense of one being. Again, I think she is utterly justified.

So is it okay to take 100 lives if it saves 101 lives? Esp. when those 100 haven't done anything wrong? At what point does it become unacceptable to take the lives of innocents to save others?

It really is debatable if ANY lives are lost in the Tuvix situation as Tuvix is an amalgamation of two distinct people. To reverse your example, is it justified to kill two people to save one?

 

[hux]

Waiting to become 'battered and bruised' is not efficient planning. Regardless of the ship condition, the situation itself required completely different handling. The ship is shown under rationing, traversing Borg space, being harassed by numerous hostile species [Kazon etc] and generally having to face seventy years of hardship. That is not a luxury cruise.

It was the love boat.

None of those examples are outside the purview of what a captain is expected to endure without massively losing their shit. The rationing was a non-issue, Borg space was traversed by Janeway helping them to annihilate another species (nice work), Starships are harassed as a matter of course. Everyone on board knew they weren't going to be traveling for 70 years so the psychological impact of that is negligible.

I don't see her dealing with anything that other captains haven't dealt with. The only exception being that she is cut off from Starfleet and the Federation (and that was only until message in a bottle). If she was under perpetual pressure then why did her erratic behaviour only manifest during the big calls. She was perfectly fine for all the other stuff.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

In this case the Starfleet crew she was sacrificing were the aggressors and murderers.

Guilty lives that are 'On your team' aren't more valuable than innocent lives of another species, or another planet, or another nation.

Like, if I see five people attacking and beating one person to death, I prioritize the life of the victim, not the attackers.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Her worst behaviour was when Janeway had no choices to make.

Janeway spent the 3 months before Night, locked in her quarters, hugging her shins, rocking, muttering to herself about how she isn't a monster.

Seriously? Did anyone check her back for scars?

 

[MacLeod]

If Kirk or Picard stared at their second in command like that then stomped off like a child, it would just make them look ridiculous, petty and laughable. Yet with Janeway, it's entirely normal behaviour. The only other captain i can sorta picture doing something like that is Sisko because he was also prone to emotional outbursts.

As for being in the Delta quadrant alone being a justification for her behaviour, that would make some sense IF Voyager was battered and bruised, struggling through unknown space, forced to live on bread and water, battle damaged etc etc

But they're not. It's pretty much a luxury cruise with occasional sight seeing (the sporadic lack of holodeck privileges being the worst thing they had to endure.....the horror). The fact that she loses her shit under such comfortable circumstances whenever big calls need to be made only further highlights her inexperience. She's clearly one of those captains who needs Starfleet to hold her hand.

Being in the Delta quadrant was the making of her. Had she been a normal captain in the Alpha quadrant, i suspect she would have had a pedestrian, forgettable career.

They just couldn't write her well and they knew it. They hedged their bets to begin with but once it was clear that they didn't know what they were doing, they deliberately made her inexperienced and out of her depth as a means of hiding that fact.

Waiting to become 'battered and bruised' is not efficient planning. Regardless of the ship condition, the situation itself required completely different handling. The ship is shown under rationing, traversing Borg space, being harassed by numerous hostile species [Kazon etc] and generally having to face seventy years of hardship. That is not a luxury cruise.

Tuvix, meanwhile, is a favourite debate here. As far as I a concerned she saves two mens lives [and thus those who love Tuvok & Neelix] at the expense of one being. Again, I think she is utterly justified.

So is it okay to take 100 lives if it saves 101 lives? Esp. when those 100 haven't done anything wrong? At what point does it become unacceptable to take the lives of innocents to save others?

It really is debatable if ANY lives are lost in the Tuvix situation as Tuvix is an amalgamation of two distinct people. To reverse your example, is it justified to kill two people to save one?

Well the obvious answer is no, I could expand but I don't want to derail this thread into yet another deabte on the moral, ethical and legal aspects of Janeway's actions in "Tuvix"

 

[Guy Gardener]

In this case the Starfleet crew she was sacrificing were the aggressors and murderers.

Guilty lives that are 'On your team' aren't more valuable than innocent lives of another species, or another planet, or another nation.

Like, if I see five people attacking and beating one person to death, I prioritize the life of the victim, not the attackers.

No one is guilty, until proven guilty by a court of law.

Benefit of the doubt, yo.

 

[TheGoodStuff]

Waiting to become 'battered and bruised' is not efficient planning. Regardless of the ship condition, the situation itself required completely different handling. The ship is shown under rationing, traversing Borg space, being harassed by numerous hostile species [Kazon etc] and generally having to face seventy years of hardship. That is not a luxury cruise.

It was the love boat.

None of those examples are outside the purview of what a captain is expected to endure without massively losing their shit. The rationing was a non-issue, Borg space was traversed by Janeway helping them to annihilate another species (nice work), Starships are harassed as a matter of course. Everyone on board knew they weren't going to be traveling for 70 years so the psychological impact of that is negligible.

I don't see her dealing with anything that other captains haven't dealt with. The only exception being that she is cut off from Starfleet and the Federation (and that was only until message in a bottle). If she was under perpetual pressure then why did her erratic behaviour only manifest during the big calls. She was perfectly fine for all the other stuff.

The psychological impact is negligible!? The impact would be massive: potentially never seeing family/Earth ever again would be a tremendous strain.

While many starships are attacked, none have to contend with the reality that critical damage may spell complete doom even if they win the fight. The Enterprise can always send a distress call, the Defiant can be towed home...Voyager cant. One mistake, a destroyed nacelle...and they are in severe trouble.

To me, Janeway [if Voyager was real] would be under tremendous strain, unlike anything the other hero captains have endured.