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Janeway's Convient Morals

Zameaze

Commodore
Commodore
One example of Janeway's convient morals that comes to mind:

In Death Wish, Q would have returned Voyager home if Janeway would side with him. She was judging Quinn's right to suicide and Q argued that Quinn was "incapable of making rational choice.” Janeway decides compromising her morals isn't worth getting her crew home and grants Quinn his right to die.

In The Gift Seven says she'd rather die then be on Voyager. She chooses to either die or return to the collective. Janeway says Seven is "unable to make rational choice" and will stay on Voyager. WTF?
 
I think every modern Trek Captain had a "trial" to pass.

Picard held the judgement of humanity in his hands thanks to Q.

Sisko challenge was to stand up and accept his role as "emmissary".

I think Janeway's trial was her staying true to her morals and her word.

I believe this because many Janeway eps. have her wrestling with this, sometimes winning & sometimes loosing. As we've seen in eps. like"Caretaker", "Night", "Equinox" & "Endgame", Janeway is literally teetering on the brink of becoming a captain like Ransom. Janeway plays the line often of what is morally right & what isn't too the point where she doesn't care or can stomach what is often seen as morarally questionable. I think seeing Janeway that way makes "Endgame" even more intense due to the fact Janeway has to cheat in order to stop herself from becoming a person like Ransom and retain the morals she struggles with.

Does Janeway do what she does for the safety of her crew or to satisfy her own pride? This is the trial of Capt. Janeway. She isn't being judged by a Q or a prophet, instead she'd being judged by us as well as herself and if what she does is morally right. That's why I don't think Janeway is written inconsistantly but rather as this is her trial to stick to her own word & trying to stand by the value of morals.

Is being made Admiral, does it make her one of the few upstanding ones or is she as morally corrupted as her peers?
 
I don't see here morals as being "convenient", in fact as they have been described above, they are distinctly inconvenient. Sell out a being that is basically immortal to a life of "intolerable suffering" to ease the lives of the people under her command? Not just sell out, but sell out to another immortal being who has shown himself to be a thorn in the side of humanity. "Sure" he said he'd bring them home, but who's to say he doesn't let them see it and then whisk Voyager just as far away in the beta quadrant?

Seven wants to be left on a moon for the BORG to find her. First, its a dicey proposition, who's to say the BORG will find her before she dies? More importantly, what would the BORG do AFTER they found her? Look for that pesky Federation ship and assimilate it, perhaps?

Suicidal Q was a being of vast age who had done everything, seen everything, experienced everything... and he was tired of it all.

Seven was a 24 year old who spent much of her life in the maturation chamber and then the rest of her life simply "doing" what someone else (the BORG) told her to do. Stamping her foot & insisting she be returned to the Collective didn't indicate any more rationality than a sunflower exhibits when it turns it's stalk toward the sunlight.

The morals of Captain Janeway allowed her first foster daughter to leave Voyager even though she was ready to argue against it at the detriment of her ship.

The morals of Janeway enabled her to allow Seven to choose whether she wanted to stay on Voyager or leave with the "Think Tank" aliens in season 5, just a year after she refused to allow a frightened Seven to make a similar decision in "Hope and Fear" at the end of season 4.

After 2 years in that maturation tank called "Voyager", Janeway was finally satisfied with the progress her 3rd foster daughter had made and was willing to let her "grow up", even if it meant growing away.
 
Janeway is the female Picard, at least in terms of being ethical.

Sisko had the edge over them in this sense. Neither of them could have ever done an in the pale moonlight.

I think future elderly Janeway only did what she did because she had changed as a person. Middle-aged (,i.e. the Janeway in the normal timeline) Janeway couldn't do that.
 
Well, frankly I never really thought Sisko did much of anything in "Pale Moonlight". All he did was bully a criminal and try to fool an obviously bad guy Romulan. GARAK was the one who killed him.

If Sisko was the one to plot the assassination of Vreenak all along, THEN he'd have this "edge" but as it is he's not that guilty (and no, I don't believe Garak's spiel at the end of how Sisko knew it would come to this).

But on-topic, I agree with JanewayRulz that you can't trust Q to hold up his end of the bargain nor can you just let the Borg have their way.
 
Well, frankly I never really thought Sisko did much of anything in "Pale Moonlight". All he did was bully a criminal and try to fool an obviously bad guy Romulan. GARAK was the one who killed him.

If Sisko was the one to plot the assassination of Vreenak all along, THEN he'd have this "edge" but as it is he's not that guilty (and no, I don't believe Garak's spiel at the end of how Sisko knew it would come to this).
Sisko admits his guilt at the end of the ep., then compounds it by covering it up. Sisko is an accessory to murder. Doesn't matter who "pulled the trigger" so to speak, if you're aware of a murder and don't do anything to report it, then by law you're just a guilty.
 
I hate Janeway as much as the next guy, but every Star Trek captain has contradicted himself at some point. Every series has at least one episode where you go: wait a minute, wasn't he on the exact opposite side of this issue a few seasons ago.

An example that comes easily to mind because I was recently reminded of it: in the movie Insurrection, Picard (and his crew) defy a Starfleet Admiral to save people who Starfleet is planning to relocate against their will in order to give their planet to another power. There is an episode in the seventh season of TNG (Journey's End) where Picard is cast in the role of that Admiral, enforcing the order of Starfleet Command to relocate those people, and Wesley Crusher is in the role of Picard, disobeying that order and trying to save the people's right to their homes. And Picard dresses Wesley down for his actions, saying that "You defied the orders of the ranking officer on the scene", and describing that as "unacceptable". When Wesley offered in his defense that the orders were "wrong", that even though they came to Worf from Picard, to Picard from Admiral Necheyev, and to the Admiral from Starfleet Command, they were still wrong, Picard's response is "That decision is not yours to make".

Now, the two situations are not directly parallel: the Baku were not being removed against their will, they were in fact being removed without their knowledge. And they weren't Federation citizens to begin with. And Picard made a point of removing his uniform before beginning his rebellion, which matches his comment in that episode "While you wear that uniform, you will obey every order you're given and you will conform to Starfleet regulations and rules of conduct".

Similarly, the situations Janeway faced were not directly parallel. Quinn managed to convince her that he was indeed rational: that his desire for suicide was not a symptom of mental instability. He convinced her that he was in his right mind, or as much so as his circumstance would permit, and that his desire to end his existence was born of a desire to use that as an instrument of change, as a political statement in essence.
Seven, however, was clearly under the influence of aliens known to use mind control. Perhaps Janeway should not have been so dismissive of her expressed wishes, but her reaction should have basically been "Once I am convinced you are not under the influence of any kind of mind control or insanity, if that is still your desire I will see to it that it is arranged." And there should have been a follow-up (perhaps in a later episode) where Seven says that she no longer would prefer destruction or re-assimilation to remaining on Voyager.
 
I hate Janeway as much as the next guy,

Aw, c'mon? Hate? I didn't realize anybody actually hated her (but then I'm oblivious to a lot of commonly held thoughts I guess.)

This character suffered, along with everything else in Voyager, from uneven and inconsistent writing. The only thing, in my mind, that held Katherine Janeway together was Kate Mulgrew. Of course she had faults, as a character, and was by no means perfect but the facts cited as "evidence" of her "convenient morals" can be blamed squarely on the writers for failing to keep the character consistent more than they can be inferred as actual personality flaws in Janeway herself.


-Withers-​
 
Basically, Janeway is hated because they believe she "stranded" them in the Delta Quadrant (never mind that the Array wasn't all that usable to begin with, and if they DID use it to go home the audience would just hate her for abandoning the Ocampa) and that she was angry at the crew members who were willing to break the rules to skim their trip time down (nevermind their methods never worked), and that she turned down offers to go home from Q (nevermind he is UNTRUSTWORTHY and was likely just BSing her).

Nevermind that if she was this "consistent" and "well-written" character the haters demand, they'd still hate her.
 
Basically, Janeway is hated because they believe she "stranded" them in the Delta Quadrant (never mind that the Array wasn't all that usable to begin with, and if they DID use it to go home the audience would just hate her for abandoning the Ocampa) and that she was angry at the crew members who were willing to break the rules to skim their trip time down (nevermind their methods never worked), and that she turned down offers to go home from Q (nevermind he is UNTRUSTWORTHY and was likely just BSing her).

Nevermind that if she was this "consistent" and "well-written" character the haters demand, they'd still hate her.
Preach it!
 
Aw, c'mon? Hate? I didn't realize anybody actually hated her (but then I'm oblivious to a lot of commonly held thoughts I guess.)
-Withers-​

I wouldn't call it a commonly held thought - not by going by the number of fan sites dedicated to her that is.
 
Aw, c'mon? Hate? I didn't realize anybody actually hated her (but then I'm oblivious to a lot of commonly held thoughts I guess.)
-Withers-​

I wouldn't call it a commonly held thought - not by going by the number of fan sites dedicated to her that is.

Janeway was OK at times, but where are these large number of fan sites dedicated to her?
 
Aw, c'mon? Hate? I didn't realize anybody actually hated her (but then I'm oblivious to a lot of commonly held thoughts I guess.)

-Withers-​

I wouldn't call it a commonly held thought - not by going by the number of fan sites dedicated to her that is.

Janeway was OK at times, but where are these large number of fan sites dedicated to her?

They got tired of all the Janeway bashing and formed their own boards and message groups.

Brit
 
Aw, c'mon? Hate? I didn't realize anybody actually hated her (but then I'm oblivious to a lot of commonly held thoughts I guess.)
-Withers-​

I wouldn't call it a commonly held thought - not by going by the number of fan sites dedicated to her that is.

Janeway was OK at times, but where are these large number of fan sites dedicated to her?

Google or any other search engine should point you to some. :)
 
I wouldn't call it a commonly held thought - not by going by the number of fan sites dedicated to her that is.

Janeway was OK at times, but where are these large number of fan sites dedicated to her?

Google or any other search engine should point you to some. :)

Nope. Unable to find this large number of fan sites dedicated to Captain Janeway. Maybe you could list us a few of your favorites so that we can check them out.
 
Janeway was OK at times, but where are these large number of fan sites dedicated to her?

Google or any other search engine should point you to some. :)

Nope. Unable to find this large number of fan sites dedicated to Captain Janeway. Maybe you could list us a few of your favorites so that we can check them out.

My favorite site is voyagerangel.com/vamb. I should warn you it's mainly a J/C site but from there you will find many links to other sites - mainly fanfiction.

Another place I like to go is http://www.jcville.com/ which is an attempt to make the "definitive" collection of J/C fanfiction. I dont' think anyone has succeeded over the years in accomplishing that since there are way too many stories/authors to keep track of but I always enjoy the attempts. Again, there are hundreds of links to other fan sites.

Those are my two main sites - mainly JC. The assumption is someone who creates a JC site is a Janeway fan. Over the years I've come across other types of Janeway fan sites - non fanfiction, J/7, etc. so I know they're out there - I just don't visit them regularly.

Perhaps other posters have some links they can post. :)
 
Google or any other search engine should point you to some. :)

Nope. Unable to find this large number of fan sites dedicated to Captain Janeway. Maybe you could list us a few of your favorites so that we can check them out.

My favorite site is voyagerangel.com/vamb. I should warn you it's mainly a J/C site but from there you will find many links to other sites - mainly fanfiction.

Another place I like to go is http://www.jcville.com/ which is an attempt to make the "definitive" collection of J/C fanfiction.

Your answer to Withers was:

“I wouldn't call it a commonly held thought - not by going by the number of fan sites dedicated to her that is.”

Given the sites you were able to provide, and my Google search, which gives more sites dedicated to ancient Roman tic-tac-toe than to Captain Janeway, I have to give this one to Withers.
 
I would just go to youtube and search "Janeway", of course it may take you a while to sort through all the choices. Here's a smattering from my favs.

Janeway herself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDTEtnnrRJ4

Janeway's smile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XviAJ8RByts&feature=related

Janeway & Chakotay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOMaAT6SwFg&feature=related

Janeway & B'Elanna: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WVsIPbfL0Y

Janeway & Seven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-tX...t&p=48C1916551C2C763&playnext_from=PL&index=9

Janeway & Kes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS9gpgCadOk

Janeway & Paris: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs3Ua3_Ki78

Janeway & Kim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2TWIAd8AUU

Janeway & the crew of Voyager: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaKC8n4wOaA&feature=related

The Mulgrew version of Janeway & The EMH, Q, Chakotay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-S4cfAMLOg

Janeway & her various battles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNJArMa8Uxo&feature=related

Janeway & the BORG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNJArMa8Uxo&feature=related

Janeway & Coffee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWBctqwqpM0&playnext_from=TL&videos=zpI7nhETUxQ

Janeway & Riker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEiqEWkt5mU
For those who never read (?)Mosaic, Riker and Janeway has a date back in their Academy days.

Janeway & PICARD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJOfkSyzupg

And just for fun...
J/C as Mr & Mrs Smith: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY_yyNvSI48&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJOfkSyzupg
 
I would just go to youtube and search "Janeway", of course it may take you a while to sort through all the choices. Here's a smattering from my favs.

Janeway herself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDTEtnnrRJ4

Janeway's smile: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XviAJ8RByts&feature=related

Janeway & Chakotay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOMaAT6SwFg&feature=related

Janeway & B'Elanna: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WVsIPbfL0Y

Janeway & Seven: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-tX...t&p=48C1916551C2C763&playnext_from=PL&index=9

Janeway & Kes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS9gpgCadOk

Janeway & Paris: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs3Ua3_Ki78

Janeway & Kim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2TWIAd8AUU

Janeway & the crew of Voyager: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaKC8n4wOaA&feature=related

The Mulgrew version of Janeway & The EMH, Q, Chakotay: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H-S4cfAMLOg

Janeway & her various battles: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNJArMa8Uxo&feature=related

Janeway & the BORG: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNJArMa8Uxo&feature=related

Janeway & Coffee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWBctqwqpM0&playnext_from=TL&videos=zpI7nhETUxQ

Janeway & Riker: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEiqEWkt5mU
For those who never read (?)Mosaic, Riker and Janeway has a date back in their Academy days.

Janeway & PICARD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJOfkSyzupg

And just for fun...
J/C as Mr & Mrs Smith: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY_yyNvSI48&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJOfkSyzupg

Thank you for all of these--but they are not sites dedicated to Captain Janeway. They are clips on youtube.
 
Hmmmm.

No plans to debate today.

In my way of thinking, and obviously YM-DOES-V, anyone who spends the hours to put together music videos dedicated to their fav characters does qualify for a "website". If you want a "site", not a "clip", then go to the youtube channels of these clip authors and browse through their upload files. You will probably see anywhere from 2 to 100 Voyager vids, the bulk devoted to Janeway.

If you want sites "exclusively" Janeway related, I would refer you to the Janewayites aka "the J-team", the pseuodreligious cult dedicated to the worship of all things Janeway (IIRC). I thought they were closed a few years ago, but google has links, so feel free to go browsing.
 
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