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Janeway Died? In Which Book?

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Almost no one who posts here knows enough about Trek book sales to use those data in arguments.

I love when someone will claim that one book is better than another by quoting how many reprints one of them went through. Perhaps one book had one projected print run of 500,000 copies, so it appears to be a shelfwarmer, and another one had four print runs of 100,000 each. ;)
 
Be careful what you wish for. Abandoning existing Star Trek canon and continuity, changing the characters too much and killing off a few of them might lead to a decreasing interest from many fans who have learned to love the characters they've seen on screen.
You keep talking how people only care about the characters who have appeared on screen, but I really don't think that is true. I know for myself at least, I'm just as attatched to alot of the characters who have only appeared in the books, or who have been expanded alot in the books. For example, I was pretty disapointed when Shar left DS9 and Lurqal and Jaza were killed, as I was when Dax and Data were killed. And from what I have seen on the boards I'm not the only one who has felt this way.

I'm not trying to be snotty here, but what is it about the book characters that you find so hard to get attatched to?
 
You know I just had a thought I really think the only chacters that should not ever be killed off are ones that have been killed off before but were later brought back to life because it would be repetative.
 
The safety nets such as "Remember!" in ST II, Dax the Trill symbiont in DS9, the B-4 in NEM, and Janeway off with the Q, provides the little hooks that can make such fixes possible. But the beauty is that they don't have to be used.

Dax wasn't a safety net. The symbiont was part of what made her character unique; the producers certainly didn't know that Farrell would ask to leave six years down the line. But when Farrell did say she was leaving, it was obvious to anyone that the character had an in-built means of resurrection. (I wasn't on the forums at the time - did anybody really doubt that we wouldn't get a new Dax?)

Actually, I've heard a rumour--and I have no way of confirming it, so treat it as such--that Farrell had asked not to be killed off when she left the show such that she might do guest spots, but that the producers weren't about to let the the Dax character leave entirely when, by its nature, it could be incarnated by another actor/actress.

You know I just had a thought I really think the only chacters that should not ever be killed off are ones that have been killed off before but were later brought back to life because it would be repetative.

So that would be Spock and... perhaps Tucker, based on one's interpretation of TATV? (Ironically, Spock is pretty much the only character currently at risk, since we have no idea what happens to old Spock in the upcoming film...)

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
Dax wasn't a safety net. The symbiont was part of what made her character unique; the producers certainly didn't know that Farrell would ask to leave six years down the line. But when Farrell did say she was leaving, it was obvious to anyone that the character had an in-built means of resurrection. (I wasn't on the forums at the time - did anybody really doubt that we wouldn't get a new Dax?)

They could have made it more tragic and have Dukat shoot the symbiont dead first.

Actually, I've heard a rumour--and I have no way of confirming it, so treat it as such--that Farrell had asked not to be killed off when she left the show such that she might do guest spots.
IIRC, she was against killing Jadzia because she thought her fans would be upset, and also in case there were ever future reunion movies. The actress knew she was being let go for political/salary reasons - they took her up on her ultimatum to walk if her salary wasn't increased, even though she'd been the main instigator of the casts' salary demands - so she wouldn't have been expecting "happy family" guest spots the next season.
 
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They could have made it more tragic and have Dukat shoot the symbiont dead first.

True... but that wouldn't make sense in- or out-universe. Out-universe, since obviously there was an obvious way to switch the actress (or even actor) protraying the character, and the decision to kill the character rather than shipping her off somewhere à la Wesley or Ro was, at least in part, to allow the Dax portion of the character to make a return. In-universe, because Dukat wasn't in control, the Pagh-Wraiths were, and from his reaction afterwards, he had no desire to see her dead.

IIRC, she was against killing Jadzia because she thought her fans would be upset, and also in case there were ever future reunion movies. The actress knew she was being let go for political/salary reasons - they took her up on her ultimatum to walk if her salary wasn't incresased, even though she'd been the main instigator of the casts' salary demands - so she wouldn't have been expecting "happy family" guest spots the next season.

Ah, thanks for clarifying. I had thought she had left voluntarily to do "Becker".

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
 
You know I just had a thought I really think the only chacters that should not ever be killed off are ones that have been killed off before but were later brought back to life because it would be repetative.

So that would be Spock and... perhaps Tucker, based on one's interpretation of TATV? (Ironically, Spock is pretty much the only character currently at risk, since we have no idea what happens to old Spock in the upcoming film...)

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Well in the case of Tucker

Considering that at the end of Last Full Measure an elderly Tucker appeared and bumped into a James T. Kirk who was a child at the time unless the Enterprise Relaunch covers the mid 23rd century I'm pretty sure he won't be killed during the relaunch.

As for Spock we will have to wait for the film though I really don't see how killing him wouldn't turn into a Wrath of Khan rehash.
 
Well, every reader is going to have some series they don't care about getting more books in (New Frontier, Vanguard, and Enterprise could disappear forever without my batting an eyelash), but that's not evidence that the line as a whole would do as well without those series. Nor is the fact that particular readers don't think the Voyager books have been good.

Almost no one who posts here knows enough about Trek book sales to use those data in arguments; those who do know enough are bound by confidentiality not to do so. It might be helpful to confine our opinions to, well, our opinions, without claiming that this or that creative decision will or won't or would or wouldn't hurt sales.

Just to be clear, my intention was to confine myself to opinions - I fully realize that while I might be happy to replace, say, every Voyager release with a DS9, New Frontier, or Vanguard book, I do realise there are just as many fans out there who don't feel that way. I was just making a "for instance." :)

IIRC, she was against killing Jadzia because she thought her fans would be upset, and also in case there were ever future reunion movies. The actress knew she was being let go for political/salary reasons - they took her up on her ultimatum to walk if her salary wasn't increased, even though she'd been the main instigator of the casts' salary demands - so she wouldn't have been expecting "happy family" guest spots the next season.

That's interesting, I never knew that.
 
Dax wasn't a safety net. The symbiont was part of what made her character unique; the producers certainly didn't know that Farrell would ask to leave six years down the line. But when Farrell did say she was leaving, it was obvious to anyone that the character had an in-built means of resurrection. (I wasn't on the forums at the time - did anybody really doubt that we wouldn't get a new Dax?)

They could have made it more tragic and have Dukat shoot the symbiont dead first.

Actually, I've heard a rumour--and I have no way of confirming it, so treat it as such--that Farrell had asked not to be killed off when she left the show such that she might do guest spots.
IIRC, she was against killing Jadzia because she thought her fans would be upset, and also in case there were ever future reunion movies. The actress knew she was being let go for political/salary reasons - they took her up on her ultimatum to walk if her salary wasn't increased, even though she'd been the main instigator of the casts' salary demands - so she wouldn't have been expecting "happy family" guest spots the next season.

So incredible rude! They did kill off the character and made many fans sad only because of petty internal economical squabble! What jerks they are!

Well, it confirms my opinion of those in charge of the Star Trek series.

All credits to Terri Farrell in this matter. She did care for her character and for the fans too.

I wish there was a way to bring Jadzia back in upcoming books.
 
Be careful what you wish for. Abandoning existing Star Trek canon and continuity, changing the characters too much and killing off a few of them might lead to a decreasing interest from many fans who have learned to love the characters they've seen on screen.
You keep talking how people only care about the characters who have appeared on screen, but I really don't think that is true. I know for myself at least, I'm just as attatched to alot of the characters who have only appeared in the books, or who have been expanded alot in the books. For example, I was pretty disapointed when Shar left DS9 and Lurqal and Jaza were killed, as I was when Dax and Data were killed. And from what I have seen on the boards I'm not the only one who has felt this way.

I'm not trying to be snotty here, but what is it about the book characters that you find so hard to get attatched to?

I don't find you snotty, it's a good question which I would try to answer as good as possible.

It's just like.......they don't feel so alive and important as the main characters from the series. They feels like......second hand replacements.

It's like if you're reading a Voyager book and you read about that new doctor instead of the EMH and other characters which have replaced some old favorite and you think "what are they doing there? Bring back Tuvok or Neelix or..." And it's like "Ensign Jimmy is worried about her girlfriend back home" and you think "so what, who cares, how I wish that Torres was here".

It's actually like going to a concert with some rock legends from the past, some of those bands where the drummer is the only original member left. They may do a good job, the music might sound rather OK but.......it just doesn't feel right. There might be something missing, a distinct guitar solo, the voice of the original singer, a prominent figure on stage or something like that.

I guess that it's a matter of taste or sensitivity.
 
Well, with the Voyager books so far Lynx, I can't say that I disagree with you there.

But have you read the DS9 Relaunch? If that cast of characters doesn't stand up to the TV cast every inch of the way, I'll eat my hat.
 
Well, with the Voyager books so far Lynx, I can't say that I disagree with you there.

But have you read the DS9 Relaunch? If that cast of characters doesn't stand up to the TV cast every inch of the way, I'll eat my hat.

I agree with you here. I haven't read every DS9 book but I also have a feeling that the "replacements" works a bit better than in the Voyager books.

Not to mention that they did bring in Ro Laren who I've always have liked! :techman:
 
They did kill off the character and made many fans sad only because of petty internal economical squabble!

You realize, of course, that lots of TV and movie viewers enjoy having a good weep during a well-told, well-acted story, don't you?

Spock's death also came about because Nimoy wanted to move on, as did Data's due to Brent Spiner (who co-wrote the story of Data's demise.)
 
They did kill off the character and made many fans sad only because of petty internal economical squabble!

You realize, of course, that lots of TV and movie viewers enjoy having a good weep during a well-told, well-acted story, don't you?

Spock's death also came about because Nimoy wanted to move on, as did Data's due to Brent Spiner (who co-wrote the story of Data's demise.)

I shed a tear or two when I watched Tears of the Prophets and Jadzia was killed, I also reacted in a similar way when Ayren Sun was killed in Die Me, Dichtomy on Farscape although I knew both these events well in advance due to not being afraid of spoilers. But ultimately, Ezri was introduced which introduced some interesting story developments over the years right upto Destiny and her captaining Aventine and Ayren's death and then return resolted in the death of Zahn and I was never a fan of her.

 
They did kill off the character and made many fans sad only because of petty internal economical squabble!

You realize, of course, that lots of TV and movie viewers enjoy having a good weep during a well-told, well-acted story, don't you?

Spock's death also came about because Nimoy wanted to move on, as did Data's due to Brent Spiner (who co-wrote the story of Data's demise.)

Yes, I do realize that. But I'm not one of them and I must also state that I sometimes find it hard to understand them.

OK, there are movies and certain TV-dramas where I've almost shed a tear for a killed-off character and sometimes also seen the purpose of their deaths. But there are mostly in such movies where there is an end of the story and there has to be some sacrifice. The same for certain series where the story is depending on some tragic event to get the point.

I do find the Star Trek series a bit different. They are more like other adventure series where we do have a bunch of main characters who are supposed to win, get away or succeed at the end of the episode and be ready for next weeks action. The same for the books who can be compared with similar stories.

Therefore it feels wrong when we follow those characters for seven years or so and suddenly one of them are killed off for no acceptable reason at all.

As for Spock's death, they killed him off because Nimoy wanted to quit. But fortunately they did realize that Star Trek without Spock would never be the same so they persuaded Nimoy to come back and Spock did resurrect. Fortunately, it looks like Nimoy haven't had any objections to return as Spock in some movies and episodes. We should be grateful for that.

As for Spiner, I disagree with his decision to participate in the killing off of Data in the way it was done. I can understand if he wanted out but there was no reason to kill off Data. It was actually written on he wall that "Nemesis" would be the last TNG movie so Spiner wouldn't have to worry that much over being forced to be Data again. Therefore they should have left it as it was, without killing off Data.

Unfortunately some actors don't seem to care that much for the characters or the feelings of the fans.

Considering the quality of "Nemesis" it would have been better if that movie hadn't been made at all.

And when it comes to Data, there was a possibility left at the end of the movie that Data could return so why don't use that option?
 
Well, with the Voyager books so far Lynx, I can't say that I disagree with you there.

But have you read the DS9 Relaunch? If that cast of characters doesn't stand up to the TV cast every inch of the way, I'll eat my hat.

The DS9 relaunch is gifted with some fantastic characters. Hell, Elias Vaughn is one of my favourite Star Trek characters ever - and he's never so much as sneezed onscreen.
 
Therefore it feels wrong when we follow those characters for seven years or so and suddenly one of them are killed off for no acceptable reason at all.

Sigh.... :brickwall: "For no acceptable reason"...According to whose standards??

Although (and heaven help me!), I do agree with you that there was no real reason for Data to be killed off the way he was, especially in light of Nemesis being all but certain to be the last TNG film. Maybe someone here can enlighten me: was it certain at the time that there probably wouldn't be another film after Nemesis? If there was some possibility of another movie, I can see them going the way they did - at least, much more than if not.

And when it comes to Data, there was a possibility left at the end of the movie that Data could return so why don't use that option?

I assume you meant "why don't the books use that option." If so, this has been covered in various threads in this forum, but as I understand it, it's felt that Data's sacrifice, within the bounds of the story, was meaningful...and that there's no compelling dramatic reason to cheapen his sacrifice with a deus ex machina resurrection. Apologies if I'm mistaken, and hopefully one of the writers hereabouts will correct me if I'm wrong.


As for Spock's death, they killed him off because Nimoy wanted to quit. But fortunately they did realize that Star Trek without Spock would never be the same so they persuaded Nimoy to come back and Spock did resurrect. Fortunately, it looks like Nimoy haven't had any objections to return as Spock in some movies and episodes. We should be grateful for that.

That's not exactly true. When Harve Bennett was developing Star Trek II, he approached Nimoy about participating, but Nimoy was reluctant because he wasn't sure what else could be done with Spock, and because he hadn't enjoyed making The Motion Picture. When Bennett broached the idea of Spock dying, it intrigued Nimoy because of the dramatic possibilities inherent in Spock's death--dying, after all, was something Spock hadn't done before. (I doubt this is going to gel for you, Lynx--and I really don't mean anything bad by saying that--but it does relate to your issues with character deaths and the reasons for them, as Nimoy saw some interesting story potential in the death of Spock.) See, "they" didn't kill Spock off because Nimoy wanted to quit - it was a story idea that kept Nimoy interested.

So the script was written, and re-written, and Spock's death, originally intended for the first act, became instead the denouement of the picture. During the course of making the film, Leonard Nimoy discovered that he was enjoying playing Spock again, and improvised the "Remember" moment as a "back-door" in case they wanted to pick up a story thread later on. After the movie came out, Nimoy was approached about continuing his association with Star Trek--not necessarily as an actor--and negotiated a return as director of the third movie (and then the fourth). In this capacity, he had much more say over what direction the Spock character took, and was able to avoid the problem he'd had before - that of Spock stagnating.

So it wasn't a case where, as you put it, "they [the filmmakers, I assume] did realize that Star Trek without Spock would never be the same so they persuaded Nimoy to come back and Spock did resurrect." Indeed, if you look at the development of Star Trek II and the addition of characters like David Marcus and Saavik, the studio was fully prepared to go on without Spock if necessary, and as Christopher has pointed out, these replacement characters were only abandoned, their potential largely unrealised, when Nimoy did eventually return. In fact, the only significant "persuasion" that went in with regard to Nimoy remaining with Star Trek
was the other way around, when Nimoy had to persuade Michael Eisner (then in charge of Paramount) that he did not hate Spock and would be a good choice to direct Star Trek III.

Fortunately, it looks like Nimoy haven't had any objections to return as Spock in some movies and episodes. We should be grateful for that.

On this we agree (although I could have almost done without "Unification," as I don't think it used Spock's character particularly well).
 
^ It's been a while, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was Harve Bennett who devised the whole "Remember" thing, as a possible plot point which could be revisited in the event there was another Trek project (at the time of ST II's filming, ST III was not a certainty).

I don't recall specifics about Nemesis, but I don't remember anything put out while the film was in production to indicate it'd be the last TNG movie...at least, not in the sense that ST VI was pushed as the "final voyage of the original crew." As I remember it, only after the film's disappointing box office performance did that sort of talk really ramp up. I welcome those with better memories to help me out here :)
 
^ It's been a while, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was Harve Bennett who devised the whole "Remember" thing, as a possible plot point which could be revisited in the event there was another Trek project (at the time of ST II's filming, ST III was not a certainty).


Having just read I Am Spock and recently watched Wrath of Khan with the commentary, I can back you up on this.
 
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