Janeway Died? In Which Book?

[Lynx]

And now I will turn my back to the Star Trek books totally and to the whole "official" part of Star Trek.

There have been a lot of events the recent years which has ruined my interest for Star Trek. It used to be fun once, it isn't fun anymore.

And I guess my question would be is why you even bother coming here? If Star Trek is no longer fun for you then move on already! You take things much too seriously and personally, like the writers were purposefully out to destroy your Star Trek experience.

I do not care for each and every creative decision the writers on the show, or in the books have made, but I don't focus on the things I don't like, but on the things I do like, because the things I do like are far more than the few things I don't like. Too bad you have become so embittered and cynical. Somehow I think the main messages in Star Trek have passed you by.

Kevin

I've bothered to come here because I'm after all a fan of Star Trek. It has been an essential part of my life for many years. I have kept that interest despite some dissapointments and I still like to discuss certain items of the show.

I've also been a fan of the books. As I've mentioned before, I find some of the books real masterpieces, in many cases better than many of the TV episodes. Who knows how many times I've come up with positive reviews and downright gushing of books like "The Black Shore" by Greg Cox and "Marooned" by Christie Golden and I still love those books.

As for "moving on", it's not that easy. As I've wrote before, Star Trek has been an essential part of my life for many years and it isn't that easy to abandon. Besides that, I still love the different series, the characters and the concept for Star Trek, there are certain politics that I simply can't agree on.

Unfortunately, there isn't so much to "move on" to either because I find most of the SF available today sub-standard in comparision to Star Trek.

But here today doesn't mean that I will be here tomorrow. Who knows, I might just decide that enough is enough and call it a day.

If I decide to stick with Star Trek, then I'll do what you've done, focus on the positive which in my case means re-watching TNG and seasons 1-3 of Voyager on DVD, occasional episodes of DS9 and TOS on my old video tapes, re-read the books I've got and chase some more of them on Ebay.

And then we do have the fan-fiction. There is a forum for it here too!

As for fan-fiction, the only tiny positive aspect of this recent commotion is that it will give me the liberty to write what I really want.

So far, I've been stupid enough to adapt my stories to what has been going on in the "relaunch books" because I've always considered the events in the "relaunch" books as parts of the ongoing Star Trek saga and since I've also bought some of the books and were planning to do so even in the future, it has felt right to adapt my stories to the ongoing events in the "official" Star Trek universe even if it has actually limited the possibilities to write exactly what I want.

Now, after deciding to abandon the "official" Star Trek, I don't have to take certain limits into consideration anymore. I can put the whole Voyager crew back on the ship and send them on some exciting mission to the Andromeda galaxy without having to care about who's on the ship and not on the ship in the "official" books.

In my universe, both Janeway and Kes are still alive and well!

 

[captcalhoun]

Lynx: if it bothers you this much, why in the name of Kahless are you even bothering to come on here and bitch about it? i don't like Daniel Craig as 007, but i don't go on James Bond forums and sonstantly bitch about it, i ignore it and find something else to take an interest in.

 

[Ktrek]

Lynx,

I still can't comprehend "why" you even care if Janeway is dead. You stated yourself that you stopped watching Voyager after Kes was killed so where was your loyalty to Janeway then? It seems to me your loyalties are pretty shallow.

Kevin

 

[Lynx]

Lynx: if it bothers you this much, why in the name of Kahless are you even bothering to come on here and bitch about it? i don't like Daniel Craig as 007, but i don't go on James Bond forums and sonstantly bitch about it, i ignore it and find something else to take an interest in.

Because it annoyed me when I read it today and I've simply given my opinion about it. A lot of it are expressed in my previous posts.

As for Daniel Craig as 007, I don't like it either and I have no intention to watch any more 007 movie, at least not as long as he's around.

As for b**ing, I know about a poster who is an ardent fan of a legendary rock band who hasn't accepted that the lead guitarist left some years ago (obviously after some internal problems in the band). He shows up from time to time on the official forum to trash the guy who replaced his hero.

Fans can be that way sometimes.

Ktrek wrote:

Lynx,

I still can't comprehend "why" you even care if Janeway is dead. You stated yourself that you stopped watching Voyager after Kes was killed so where was your loyalty to Janeway then? It seems to me your loyalties are pretty shallow.

Kevin

I stopped watching Voyager because I was angry and dissapointed over the way Kes was treated and decided that enough was enough. However, I still had (and still has) an affection for the characters.

Besides that, I thought that the upcoming Voyager books would deal with the characters in a better way than the series did.

 

[Christopher]

Kes was invariably described as having a lifespan of seven years, or nine years. And she went through the elogium earlier than most of her species. No matter, she was still going to be dead by VOY's finale and was never going to be a major part of any movie reunion or book relaunch.

First off, her life expectancy was given as eight or nine years, and she was a few months past one when the series began. So she would've been within a year of the end of an Ocampa's typical lifespan by the end of season 7. Second, the elogium was prematurely triggered by alien influence and, since unconsummated, was said to have no lasting impact on her life cycle. Third, "Cold Fire" established the possibility that Ocampa could lengthen their lifespans by mastering their mental powers. It would've been easy to extend Kes's life beyond the end of the series, and there's certainly no reason why her natural lifespan couldn't have extended to the end of the series.

 

[Therin of Andor]

It would've been easy to extend Kes's life beyond the end of the series, and there's certainly no reason why her natural lifespan couldn't have extended to the end of the series.

Sure, but then people would say that it was a cheat, 'cos the actress missed her chance to have a good death scene in the series finale!

 

[JD]

Lynx, I'm just curious, what is some of this other stuff that has happened in the books that has pissed you off so much?

 

[ronny]

The DS9 relaunch could be acceptable but I guess that the annihilation of Janeway will affect that one as well. Besides that, there are a lot of good characters missing there as well and who know who will be the next on "Death Row".

I don't see how Janeway getting killed affects DS9R at all. Janeway is still in the Delta quadrant while the the relaunch is going on. As far as the other characters being gone, yeah I missed them but I would rather have that than some dumb ass reason for getting everybody back together.

 

[Trent Roman]

Seriously, another poster pointed out that if Janeway's death had made her cry she would have been satisfied but in fact it just made her angry. After some consideration I have to say I feel the same way. It wasn't just the fact that she died but also the fact that it was written in such an unsatisfying way in a TNG novel of all places. Oh well...

Agreed. My complaint re: Janeway's death is essentially bipartite: (A) I think it was a bad idea; and (B) I think it was horribly executed. Full Circle may or may not go some way towards assuaging (A), but there's pretty much fuckall that can be done about (B).

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Lynx]

Lynx, I'm just curious, what is some of this other stuff that has happened in the books that has pissed you off so much?

Nothing actually, most of the character destruction have happened in the TV series.

Maybe that's the reason for my current state of mind. I mean, I've always held the books in high esteem. OK, there are things I've been a bit dissapointed over, main character being omitted from the relaunch books but most of the things that haveannoyed me have been the result of or have had connection with what have happened in the series.

And when I read about the annihilation of Janeway I thought that coming books would correct that (maybe with the help of Q). Now almost everyone seem to be stating that Janeway will be gone forever.

First Kes, then Data, then Janeway. There's the reason for my current bad mood.

Anyway, I'm not gonna b**ch over this day after day. I'm p**ed off today and I'm expressing my opinion, that's all.

But as it seems, I don't think I will continue to read the Trek books.

 

[Therin of Andor]

First Kes, then Data, then Janeway.

But you, yourself, said you stopped following Janeway after "Fury"!?

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

Right now Worf is first officer of the Enterprise, and that characterization is one I find really interesting to read. It wouldn't have happened without Data dying. Is it worth Data's death, in particular? I don't think so, no. But you CAN'T make the argument that characters dying doesn't create other opportunities for the rest.

The question is just if those opportunities are WORTH it. You clearly feel as though they weren't in this case; I'm reserving judgement until I read Full Circle.

Oh, please. It was not necessary to kill Data so that Worf could get the opportunities he has now!

There are a lot of possibilities why Data might not be on the Enterprise any more without having to kill him - not to mention the dreadful way it was done in Nemesis. If Nemesis is considered to be written in order to do TNG a favour and advance characters, certainly not in my book!

 

[Thrawn]

Lynx, as I've mentioned before, you've made your opinions totally clear, and it's at least a consistent argument - as soon as a character you like dies, you're out. And, whatever, fair enough.

It just seems like a weird one. Like, if you had 10 best friends, and you were all thick as thieves, and one of them died, would you abandon all the rest and find a totally new group?

If a character you like dying is a dealbreaker for you, then no one is going to convince you otherwise, I just don't understand the logic behind it.

What if, in mid fourth season, Chakotay had gotten his memory completely wiped - same name, all new character? Would that've been ok with you? What if the same thing had happened to Kes - she died, but was resurrected with no memory of what came before. Would you still like the character? How about if Paris really had been a layabout and a traitor in Voyager second season, but he remained in the show as a Seska-like recurring villain. Ok? Not ok? And, last one - did you like Data any less when he got his emotion chip? The argument could be made he became a very different character then.

If the answer to all of those is "yes, that'd be ok", what's so different about death?

 

[kimc]

[I'm a Data fan, one left very angry that I didn't have the appropriate emotional response to the character's death in "Nemesis". But walking away from all of ST just because one character's gone, or because a book has had an unexpected outcome, or JJ Abrams has rejigged a few things in an upcoming movie, means that I'd have to go without new Star Trek for the rest of my life. I'm not prepared to cut off my nose to spite my face. ST is more than one character, or one set of adventures.

Well I may have given up on Trek Lit but luckily the world of Trek is a pretty large one. I agree about Data's death - another poorly handled one imo.

 

[MMCL]

If people don't like a decision made they can just stop reading. It's their choice. What does constantly bitching about it actually achieve.

Will they bring Janeway back? Probably not.

Let's say they did... I actually think that the decision to bring her back in some kind of absurd twist would piss more people off than her actually death did.

I really do.

Whether you like the decision or not, she's dead. I think it was a good decision. For me, Janeway's 'job' as a character was to bring her family home. She did that. She's now an admiral but her 'job' is complete. Sure you could scrape together a new job, but thematically I'm not sure what she could actually do, or perhaps you could find some twist to give her back her 'job' but where's the fun in it... we saw it already, for seven years.

For me - the books are far superior than any of the shows because they show the true repercussions of the decisions and choices made by the characters. Gomez doesn't just miraculously recover from the trauma she faced in a certain book. She needs counselling, she struggles, she blames her captain, she fights with him, she cries, she 'grows' as a character... The monster of the week type shows were always the weakest and lacked any kind of emotional involvement.

Oh and btw, my favourite characters: Vale, Corsi, Shar, Ree, Dax (Ezri), Ro (DS9R), Garak, Bacco, Duffy and Abromowitz. I forgot to add Leader Wol (just loving her...!)

And I hated when Duffy died... but I loved the growth of 'hot chocolate' girl.
May the books live long and prosper

Oh - and the other option people have if they don't like it ... start writing the stories you want to see (and let's see how many people you piss off!)

 

[Lynx]

Lynx, as I've mentioned before, you've made your opinions totally clear, and it's at least a consistent argument - as soon as a character you like dies, you're out. And, whatever, fair enough.

It just seems like a weird one. Like, if you had 10 best friends, and you were all thick as thieves, and one of them died, would you abandon all the rest and find a totally new group?

If a character you like dying is a dealbreaker for you, then no one is going to convince you otherwise, I just don't understand the logic behind it.

What if, in mid fourth season, Chakotay had gotten his memory completely wiped - same name, all new character? Would that've been ok with you? What if the same thing had happened to Kes - she died, but was resurrected with no memory of what came before. Would you still like the character? How about if Paris really had been a layabout and a traitor in Voyager second season, but he remained in the show as a Seska-like recurring villain. Ok? Not ok? And, last one - did you like Data any less when he got his emotion chip? The argument could be made he became a very different character then.

If the answer to all of those is "yes, that'd be ok", what's so different about death?

The only one I wold give you a possible "yes" to is the Data example. In the other cases, I would have regarded it as character destruction (just like what happened in "Fury").

I won't say that every death of a character would be a dealbreaker. There might be some circumstance which could make me accept it. But in most cases, no.

And when it comes to books, there's no problem with actors who wants to quit and having to wipe out the character because of that.

As a matter of fact, I see no reason at all for killing off Janeway.

Plus, as I've stated before, all of this comes on top on some other annoying things which has been going on for a long time. There were some character destruction in the different series which I couldn't accept and I haven't been too pleased with having main characters removed in the books and replaced by, for me, totally uninteresting characters. But there have at least been a possibility to assume that those "removed" characters still are around and a hope that they will return in some upcoming book. But what we have now is continuing character destruction, just like they did in some of the series.

As for the example about "the 10 best friends" well, the death of one of them may result in a change of the personal chemistry which could break up the group.

MMCL wrote:

Oh - and the other option people have if they don't like it ... start writing the stories you want to see (and let's see how many people you piss off!)

I might do just that, in fact that's exactly what I've done with two stories about Kes.

I'm not sure if I will publish all that I might write either (and P*** off people), I may keep it for my personal enjoyment. In fact, I still like to read those Kes stories I've written. Without being rude or without wanting to insult any author, I enjoy them more than any of the recent books I've read.

 

[Thrawn]

Right now Worf is first officer of the Enterprise, and that characterization is one I find really interesting to read. It wouldn't have happened without Data dying. Is it worth Data's death, in particular? I don't think so, no. But you CAN'T make the argument that characters dying doesn't create other opportunities for the rest.

The question is just if those opportunities are WORTH it. You clearly feel as though they weren't in this case; I'm reserving judgement until I read Full Circle.

Oh, please. It was not necessary to kill Data so that Worf could get the opportunities he has now!

There are a lot of possibilities why Data might not be on the Enterprise any more without having to kill him - not to mention the dreadful way it was done in Nemesis. If Nemesis is considered to be written in order to do TNG a favour and advance characters, certainly not in my book!

Hold on, hold on. I agree with you. I was pointing out that Data's death gave the character Worf an opportunity he wouldn't have otherwise had to grow, and you can't argue that. I said right there in that paragraph though that I didn't think Data's death was worth that. The question is if the character's death is WORTH the advancement/development the other characters get. I didn't think Data's was worth it. It remains to be seen if Janeway's was. I'm hopeful.

 

[Thrawn]

Hm, Lynx, interesting post. I think you and I want fundamentally different things out of our entertainment, or at least our Trek.

I'm of the opinion that the upshot of sci-fi is that the settings and scenarios can be invented wholesale to emphasize, freely and creatively, whatever aspect of the human condition that the story wishes to emphasize. A famous truism is that good art is always an exaggeration of reality; I think Trek certainly qualifies.

But a key component of that is the fact that the actual human component should stay as realistic as possible. That is, people should fall in love, have nervous breakdowns, suffer the occasional stroke and memory loss, or die (or anything else that is possible with their alien physiology). That is an ESSENTIAL component of my enjoyment of a show or story. If I read something where I know characters won't die, or change drastically, it seems fake and cheesy to me.

So I really disliked a lot of Treklit before all the series ended, because of the reset button, but now I find it enthralling. Stuff like killing Janeway is essential to my enjoyment of a story. Not merely "ok with me", but NECESSARY.

Does that make sense?

 

[Therin of Andor]

Well I may have given up on Trek Lit but luckily the world of Trek is a pretty large one.

The world of Trek Lit is a pretty large one. With many players, styles, lengths, and editors - yet you consign them all to same trashcan?

 

[Mach5]

Stuff like killing Janeway is essential to my enjoyment of a story. Not merely "ok with me", but NECESSARY.

Does that make sense?

The 'actual human component' part makes perfect sense actually. But even though I'm against killing off major characters in general, I think Janeway's death in BD was handled surprisingly well. The only thing about this book that bothered me is the fact that the Earth-sized Borg cube ate Pluto. Seriously, the book could've done without that...