Yeah, but we were stuck with that. Nemesis had her with admiral's bars giving Picard his orders in a time frame that was less than two years after Voyager came home. Kind of limited our options, that.
Janeway Died? In Which Book?
- Thread starter sniksder
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Here is what you don't seem to be able to realize - NOT EVERYONE AGREES WITH YOU!
What's more - ANY DECISION WILL PISS SOMEONE OFF. There were threads upon threads before Before Dishonor asking if the writers would ever have the balls to kill a character or make a permanent change; those fans are happier now. You are sadder now.
You act like this decision is just costing them money, because of all the fans they're losing. They're GAINING a lot of fans too, people who - gasp - LIKE it this way. There are just as many of those fans here as there are fans like you.
No one is telling you your opinion is invalid. But this - "Dissatisfied fans=decrease in merchandise=less profit=end of the whole thing" - is nonsense. I mean, sure, it's tautologically true, but killing Janeway has in this very thread gained more support than it has lost.
So I'm sorry you don't like it, but it's NOT killing the franchise or resulting in lower profits. Period.
I'm so glad you said this, because I've been waiting for the right opening...
There's an argument to be made that she has faced the consequences of "her sometimes less than Starfleet-worthy decisions," to wit, when she was killed. Because the circumstances of the events of Before Dishonor, not to mention Resistance, Greater than the Sum, and the Destiny trilogy and its aftermath, are all entirely a consequence of the actions taken by both iterations of Kathryn Janeway in "Endgame." The destruction of the transwarp hub is responsible for the series of events involving both the Borg who were cut off from the collective (and who killed Janeway) in Resistance, Before Dishonor, and Greater than the Sum, and the rest of the Borg's decision to, in essence, take out a hit on the Alpha Quadrant, resulting in at least 63 billion deaths.
And all that happened because Janeway decided that the needs of the one outweighed the needs of the many.
Mind you, I'm expressing neither support nor rejection of this argument -- for one thing, part of the fun is that it's one possible interpretation, and multiple interpretations are more fun than singular ones.But it's a possibility worth examining, methinks.
Well this is a cool post...
Hadn't thought of it that way.
I'm not so sure that you are right here. I still think that many fans will avoid the books if their favorite characters are killed off or not present anymore. I know that this is a hot issue among the Janeway fans and I still have a feeling that they are many enough to make a difference.
We'll see who is right here.
And if I should happen to be wrong, that a majority of the Star Trek fans actually like to see their favorite characters being killed off or ruined in the same way which has happened in series, movies and books the recent years, then I will be happy not to be a part of the fan community anymore.
The only thing I wish is that the old books would be re-released and more available than they are today. Chasing after them on Ebay is tiresome and annoying.
I'm so glad you said this, because I've been waiting for the right opening...
There's an argument to be made that she has faced the consequences of "her sometimes less than Starfleet-worthy decisions," to wit, when she was killed. Because the circumstances of the events of Before Dishonor, not to mention Resistance, Greater than the Sum, and the Destiny trilogy and its aftermath, are all entirely a consequence of the actions taken by both iterations of Kathryn Janeway in "Endgame." The destruction of the transwarp hub is responsible for the series of events involving both the Borg who were cut off from the collective (and who killed Janeway) in Resistance, Before Dishonor, and Greater than the Sum, and the rest of the Borg's decision to, in essence, take out a hit on the Alpha Quadrant, resulting in at least 63 billion deaths.
And all that happened because Janeway decided that the needs of the one outweighed the needs of the many.
Mind you, I'm expressing neither support nor rejection of this argument -- for one thing, part of the fun is that it's one possible interpretation, and multiple interpretations are more fun than singular ones.
Well this is a cool post...
Hadn't thought of it that way.
Plus it shows another reason that her death is a consequence of her actions in that Janeway was arrogent whenit came to the Borg she figured she could kick their asses any day of the week to the point that in the Homecoming/Farther shore dulogy she admited to not being afraid of the Borg, to the point that she ignored warnings about going to that cube and guess what happened.
Yeah, but we were stuck with that. Nemesis had her with admiral's bars giving Picard his orders in a time frame that was less than two years after Voyager came home. Kind of limited our options, that.
*g* I know - actually, it's better she's dead.
Talk about the necessity and absurdity of cameos... *sighsSeriously, wasn't she promoted right after VOY came home in Homecoming? It's been a long time since I read the duology, so I don't quite remember. But any kind of hearing would have stuck in my mind. Then again, my memory's quite selective at times, so maybe there *was* a hearing. If not, then I'd say that's where VOY-relaunch went wrong right at the beginning. Because honestly, in 2 years much can happen, and I'm not opposed to Janeway being promoted in that timespan as long as it's reasonably explained... But to promote her right after the return would have been ridiculous.
Couple of things...
1. This is a slightly different argument. People have different favorite characters, so in order to kill the franchise ALL of them would have to die and therefore lose ALL of the fans as opposed to just the Janeway fans.
Also
2. I doubt the majority of Star Trek fandom has favorites that are SO high on the favorites list that they completely overshadow the other characters they like to a point where if that one died they'd stop wanting to read (or watch) about the others. For example I have a LOT of characters I really like in the ST universe (and Janeway happens to be one of them). However even if I were to pick an absolute favorite (of which Janeway might even be a contender for me) I doubt that number 1 favorite would be so firmly set in that number one spot as to be absolutely blasphemous if that character were killed to a point that I'd stop reading ALL Trek books and boycott the entire franchise in general.
See it is this that sounds so wild and over the top about your arguments, not that they are absolutely wrong, but that they are way exaggerated as to be a tad bit ridiculous.
Er... Kes was never killed off. She 'transcended' in one episode, then came back for a poorly-written exercise in character assassination, and the end of which she still wasn't dead but returned to Ocampa. And, I would add, the fiction line has since gone out of its way (way out of the way) to reveal that this is not what 'really' happened.
I would hope so, because it makes no sense. The version of Janeway that opted to interfere with the timeline to her own ends has already 'paid' whatever karmic bill was due for her actions - she died as she was being assimilated in "Endgame". The present iteration of Janeway had nothing to do with that decision. She, instead, decided not to accept the elder Janeway's selfish plan to use the hub to sneak Voyager home early, and instead--in conjection with her senior staff, since, let's not forget, this was a communal decision--opted to use the opportunity to strike a decisive, possibly crippling, blow against the Borg, to save those countless cultures and civilizations across the galaxy that were under threat due to the hub (including Earth and the Federation, since let's not forget as well that at least one transwarp corridor gave onto the Sol system), and at considerable risk to themselves. It was a selfless decision. That the book line has since decided that this made the Borg go nutso (I've not yet read Destiny, so please don't tell me why) is the very definition of unforseen. (And while 63 billion deaths is a remarkably high number, I do know that Destiny 'ends' the Borg threat somehow--how many people across the galaxy would have actually died or been assimilated at the hands of the Borg over the next quarter-century the 'original' Voyager spent skirmishing with the Borg on its way home, or even further, as there's nothing to say that the Borg had been 'ended' when Admiral Janeway went back in time.)
EDIT TO ADD:
Yup.
Yup.
Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman
1. Because the bricks 'n' mortar chain stores realised, about ten years ago, that ST book buyers were early adopters of online shopping. There has been a steady drift ever since. Even specialist SF stores have set up their own online shopping to compete with Amazon.
2. There is no current ST TV series or movie to buoy along a wall of ST books in a shop. Expect to see more ST visibility as we approach May.
Yep. And if you look at your hardcover copy of "Spock's World" and "The Lost Years" the word "Star Trek" doesn't even appear on the spine.
We need JJ's ST to help there.
Still, if the franchise is making it's expected profit margin with mainly online sales from Trek fans then it's a nice predictable income stream for the publisher.[/quote]
Exactly.
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I ran a large ST club from 1983-1992 and, when I finally had to walk away from it all (ie. fan politics, ugh), we had over 1000 members. What always amazed us were long-serving, enthusiastic, passionate, club members who did one of two things:
1. Simply vanished the day they got married/found another TV show or hobby to be passionate about, leaving behind ST as if it never mattered to them.
2. Stormed out of a meeting (or wrote a letter) telling us they'd had an epiphany that we were all idiots for still liking stupid Star Trek.
It's a phenomenon I seen played out often on this board, similarly, over the last decade. People lose their passion for things they were once passionate about, for reasons too varied that there are any viable ways to plug the holes and make them stay.
Well, I can see that you're finding my opinion a bit exaggerated but it's exactly the way I feel over this whole thing.
My decision to definitely turn my back to the whole franchise does have some meaning if you consider my interest for the different TV series and relaunches as well:
1. Voyager (well, only season 1-3 to be honest)
2. TNG
3. DS9
4. TOS
5. ENT
So what do we have left? Well, the Voyager relaunch is out of the question with Janeway killed off, Kes destroyed and some of the other main characters missing as well.
The TNG relaunch is out of the question with Data killed off with no Picard and some other characters missing as well.
The DS9 relaunch could be acceptable but I guess that the annihilation of Janeway will affect that one as well. Besides that, there are a lot of good characters missing there as well and who know who will be the next on "Death Row".
The TOS and New Frontier books are not as interesting for me as the books for the other series and I guess that the New Frontier books will be affected by the annihilation of Janeway too.
So what's left?
It's also the whole thing. If beloved main characters can be killed off at random because of some whims of some writers or publishers, then the Trek books community is no longer the place for me. Sorry, that's the way it is.
Trent Roman wrote:
I can agree that they actually did a decent try to explain and write around the stupidities in "Fury" in the "String Theory" books. I did find the explanation for who the pathetic creature we saw in "Fury" was quite plausible.
But it's still far from the restoring of the character that I would like to see.
And honestly, I don't think that I want to see Kes in some upcoming book. Who knows what they would do to the character. It could be worse than "Fury".
Just to go slightly off topic... but look at any section in your local B&N, and compare what's there now to what was there 5-10 years ago. Last year, shortly after Arthur C. Clarke passed, I was in the bookstore, and was shocked to see they had six Clarke books total. Or look at Asimov: when the Will Smith movie came out a couple of years ago, my B&N had 3 faceouts of I, Robot with the tie-in cover... and barely a shelf of anything else Asimov. Today, there's just the one partial shelf.
Try mystery. Does your bookstore have the entire run of Sue Grafton's alphabet? Or how many Agatha Christie titles, or Mickey Spillane or John D. MacDonald? How about non-fiction -- how thin is the Local Interest section? Art? Automotive? History?
The trouble is not with Star Trek books. It's with books.
Kes was invariably described as having a lifespan of seven years, or nine years. And she went through the elogium earlier than most of her species. No matter, she was still going to be dead by VOY's finale and was never going to be a major part of any movie reunion or book relaunch.
You really want to watch TV shows and read books where you know in advance that all major characters are safe from permanent harm, and will escape every disaster they face?
How? The characters hardly know her, have never answered to her, and weren't even there when she died.
Exactly. What do bookshops put on the most visible tables and shelves these days? Jigsaw puzzles, boxed kids books that have a fluffy toy of the main character with it, boxed recipe books that come complete with kitchen utensils, DVDs, stationery, chocolates, cold drinks...!
Oh, no. I'm not finding your opinion to be exaggerated at all. You're perfectly entitled to have this stance and opt not to continue any interest in Star Trek. That's all fine, so long as you realize you are talking about YOU and not this huge swath of Star Trek Fans.
It is your argument that you are using to back your opinion that I am finding exaggerated. You can only speak factually for yourself and how you feel, that's one person not many. But I'll give you the benefit of a doubt of knowing all of these Janeway exclusive fans who feel exactly the same way you do. You need to realize that even if you have 100s of these people those 100+ people are still quite the minority when making sweeping statements like "loss of fans = loss of money = end of franchise." (paraphrased) That's true, but it's not true in the argument you are presenting, hence the exaggeration.
How happy are we that there's none of that on THIS board?
Seriously, another poster pointed out that if Janeway's death had made her cry she would have been satisfied but in fact it just made her angry. After some consideration I have to say I feel the same way. It wasn't just the fact that she died but also the fact that it was written in such an unsatisfying way in a TNG novel of all places. Oh well...
And I guess my question would be is why you even bother coming here? If Star Trek is no longer fun for you then move on already! You take things much too seriously and personally, like the writers were purposefully out to destroy your Star Trek experience.
I do not care for each and every creative decision the writers on the show, or in the books have made, but I don't focus on the things I don't like, but on the things I do like, because the things I do like are far more than the few things I don't like. Too bad you have become so embittered and cynical. Somehow I think the main messages in Star Trek have passed you by.
Kevin
Kes was invariably described as having a lifespan of seven years, or nine years. And she went through the elogium earlier than most of her species. No matter, she was still going to be dead by VOY's finale and was never going to be a major part of any movie reunion or book relaunch.
You really want to watch TV shows and read books where you know in advance that all major characters are safe from permanent harm, and will escape every disaster they face?
How? The characters hardly know her, have never answered to her, and weren't even there when she died.
To answer it shortly:
1. There were hints in the series that Kes's lifespan could be prolonged, most notably in the episode "Cold Fire". And she could have had her lifespan prolonged in abook as well. Why is it so easy to kill off a character but not restore a character or make it better?
2. Most of the books and TV series are that way, with main characters who mostly win or survive. I do prefer that before seeing some favorite being wiped out.
3. You may be right about the New Frontier books. But they aren't top priority for me and since they take place in the same timeline as Voyager, there's always the risk that the annihilation of Janeway can affect those books as well. Besides that, it's a matter of principles for me. The constant character destruction which has taken place in the Star Trek universe the last 10 years has annoyed me and made me lose interest and enough is enough.
How happy are we that there's none of that on THIS board?
Well, certainly no committee members here have canceled my extraordinary emergency meeting to resolve the problems that were occuring, nor has any poster here been doing secret dealing with Paramount to become an official fan club so they can close down all other clubs in Australia, requiring the intervention of Mrs Troi herself. (I noted the other day, the politics of Australian fandom in the 90s even rated a mention at Majel Barrett's memorial service!)
I'm a Data fan, one left very angry that I didn't have the appropriate emotional response to the character's death in "Nemesis". But walking away from all of ST just because one character's gone, or because a book has had an unexpected outcome, or JJ Abrams has rejigged a few things in an upcoming movie, means that I'd have to go without new Star Trek for the rest of my life. I'm not prepared to cut off my nose to spite my face. ST is more than one character, or one set of adventures.
I thought her death was thrilling and spooky, and I continue to anticipate how the VOY characters are going to react in "Full Circle". I would also assume Kirsten Beyer will be giving us a replay of sorts, of the death itself, for VOY Relaunch-only readers (who will be living the incident for the first time).
Trip.
Kirk.
Garrovick.
Sisko.
All restored to life in a novel, by various methods.
Spock, restored in a movie.
Lore, no longer assumed dead, in a later TNG ep.
Yar, back via alternate timeline.
There have probably been more resurrections than not.
But you're removing any possibility that the status quo will change. If you object to deaths, you probably would also object to a laundry list of things that change the status quo: romances to other characters you feel are wrong for that character, pregnancies, divorces, promotions, demotions, transfers, etc.
Then, "Farewell!"
I hereby claim your popcorn in May 2009.
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