Janeway Died? In Which Book?

[Elemental]

And what exactly are the consequences of her death that you speak of? Nothing!

Wrong. Wait'll you read Full Circle.

Yes, as I'd said I'll look forward to seeing the more personal aspects of her loss felt among her crew, but what I mean to say is that her death itself didn't really stand for anything. Spock died to save the Enterprise. Kirk died to save a planet's population. Data died to save the Enterprise. Trip died (at least on TV) to save Archer. What did Janeway die for? She was blow'd up good (or so it seems) as a Borg after leading them in a catastrophic attack. It's the complaint some people have made about Tasha and Jadzia's deaths. They were more killed off than died for a cause. Just another reason I think Janeway has to make her return someday.

 

[Therin of Andor]

What did Janeway die for?

As one of the most Borg-experienced Starfleet officers, Janeway was attempting to keep the galaxy safe.

 

[Sci]

What did Janeway die for?

I don't know. What did anyone who died at the hands of the Borg die for?

 

[Elemental]

What did Janeway die for?

I don't know. What did anyone who died at the hands of the Borg die for?

Yeah, it would be a pretty crappy death, just like all the characters on the show acknowledge. That's why I don't think it is very befitting of the main character of one of the series. It would have been like if Riker just fried Picard/Locutus in part 2 of The Best of Both Worlds and that was the last we ever saw of him.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I did a jig on a table top in a bar once because I was told that Janeway was dying in the finale of season 5. Lies, but that was the first time I discovered my true unfetted loathing for the character, I mean I knew she urked me, but hell, my girlfriend at the time couln't even get me to dance... and now finally Kathy's dead. Finally. At last.

Nice.

Couldn't happen to a smarmier person.

I hope Noah Lessing pees on your grave.

 

[Sci]

What did Janeway die for?

I don't know. What did anyone who died at the hands of the Borg die for?

Yeah, it would be a pretty crappy death, just like all the characters on the show acknowledge. That's why I don't think it is very befitting of the main character of one of the series. It would have been like if Riker just fried Picard/Locutus in part 2 of The Best of Both Worlds and that was the last we ever saw of him.

Hmm. Is it the obligation of a work of art to always provide us with a satisfyingly "meaningful" death of a main character?

I think one of the most important things a story can do is show us that even the greatest amongst us can die meaningless deaths -- because, ultimately, it is not our deaths that give us meaning: It is our lives that do so.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Well, sure, it was a crappy way to go, but if it weren't for Janeway being able to assert control, even for an instant, Seven would have never succeeded in her mission to infect the cube. I don't think that dying to save the entire Sol system from assimilation (or digestion) at the hands of the super-cube should be considered a "meaningless" death, rather a heroic one.

 

[Paris]

Well, sure, it was a crappy way to go, but if it weren't for Janeway being able to assert control, even for an instant, Seven would have never succeeded in her mission to infect the cube. I don't think that dying to save the entire Sol system from assimilation (or digestion) at the hands of the super-cube should be considered a "meaningless" death, rather a heroic one.

Agreed By no means was her death "meaningless". She pushed through the control of the Borg, albeit for an instant, and was able to save Earth, and the entire solar sytem, from that massive cube. The good of the many outweighed the good of the few

 

[Turbo]

^ Exactly. While Janeway came down with a literally terminal case of Admiral Syndrome in Resistance and Before Dishonor, she still managed to reach through to Seven at the last minute and help save Earth. And that seems to be how Starfleet chose to remember her.

 

[sniksder]

Wow, and to think all I wanted was the name of the book.

Thanks for the lively discussion.

 

[Turbo]

Certain topics tend to provoke more discussion than others. This is one of them.

 

[rfmcdpei]

That's the Q for you: honest and straightforward.

Sure they are, at least when they're talking about what they want.

Lady Q said--plausibly enough with Janeway's Q-related history--that Q was so interested in her to want to keep her around, in some altered form, and that Lady Q shared his interest.

Is there any reason to think that Janeway will be able to use this interest to bring her back to the Trekverse we know? One consistent trend of the Q has been their lack of interest in making things easier for humans--Q was more than willing to use humans and the Federation to hold the Borg off from Gorsach, never mind the cost to his unknowing partners, and Lady Q did find it sad that Janeway destroyed herself by refusing to conisder her warnings but didn't do anything to save her from the Borg.

Why would the Q change their minds so completely?

And if they did, it would have to accomodate the 24th century series' emphasis on events that have consequences for the longer haul and that cannot be reversed with a simple CTRL-Z.

It's possible, I agree, but not likely. The dead are dead for a reason.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

That's the Q for you: honest and straightforward.

Sure they are, at least when they're talking about what they want.

Lady Q said--plausibly enough with Janeway's Q-related history--that Q was so interested in her to want to keep her around, in some altered form, and that Lady Q shared his interest.

Is there any reason to think that Janeway will be able to use this interest to bring her back to the Trekverse we know? One consistent trend of the Q has been their lack of interest in making things easier for humans--Q was more than willing to use humans and the Federation to hold the Borg off from Gorsach, never mind the cost to his unknowing partners, and Lady Q did find it sad that Janeway destroyed herself by refusing to conisder her warnings but didn't do anything to save her from the Borg.

Why would the Q change their minds so completely?

And if they did, it would have to accomodate the 24th century series' emphasis on events that have consequences for the longer haul and that cannot be reversed with a simple CTRL-Z.

It's possible, I agree, but not likely. The dead are dead for a reason.

Plus if they bring Janeway back, the people who want to bring Data back would probably raise a stink and get him ressurected, then the people who want Kirk back in the main stream novels as in not just the Shatverse which is off in its own little corner but the regular novelverse would do their own campaign (and this from a shatnerverse fan no less), and it would never end until just about every fraking character who as ever died in Star Trek has been ressurected making death totally meaningless scince they would be brought back anyway turning the Trek noveverse into the DC/Marvel universe I I don't mean in a good way.

 

[Christopher]

Did Spock's return make his death any less poignant?

Yes, actually, and I say that as someone who's written post-Genesis Spock (though there was a reason why I made his resurrection a plot point in The Brave and the Bold). What he did in Wrath of Khan was a noble sacrifice. What happened in The Search for Spock completely undermined it. For all the interesting fiction that has been done with Spock in a post-TWOK timeframe, I think it was a bad story choice to resurrect him.

On the other hand, considering how TWOK was written, they had two choices: completely ignore it (as the DC comics did until TSFS) or bring him back.

Hardly. They could've moved on. They could've had the characters deal with the loss of their friend and the change in their lives. They could've kept Saavik around and really developed her as the new central Vulcan character of the franchise.

I think people forget that that was sort of the original intention behind the introduction of Saavik. She wasn't meant to be a character who disappeared after 2.1 movies. The idea, at least potentially, was to begin phasing in a new, younger generation of characters who would take over from the old ones. There was a lot of talk about that possibility in fandom and media magazines back in the '80s. It was kind of a surprising reversal when they instead resurrected Spock, phased out Saavik, restored the Enterprise, systematically undid every change they made. And at the time, I thought it was kind of a cowardly choice to revert to the familiar and the formulaic rather than daring to embrace change.

As much as I like heroic sacrifices, I think bringing Spock back was the right choice.

Maybe you'd feel differently if you'd spent the past 25 years getting to know Saavik better and better and coming to think of her as an indispensable part of the crew. I mean, if Spock had stayed dead after TWOK, then we only would've gotten 15 years' worth of him. What new stories might there have been to tell about a younger, female Vulcan/Romulan as opposed to an older, male Vulcan/human? What kinds of new dynamics and complications might we have gotten among the crew if Saavik had stayed in Spock's place?

Sure, there have been worthwhile stories involving Spock since his resurrection. But that makes it a satisfactory choice, not necessarily a superior choice or the only one that would've worked. Who knows how many worthwhile stories we missed out on? If history had gone the other way, I'm sure there'd be people today debating whether Spock should've been brought back, and you might well be insisting that they made the right choice by leaving him dead. We're comfortable with what we're familiar with. I'm not saying that route would've been better, necessarily, but it probably wouldn't have been any less "right" in the long run, just different.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Yes, actually, and I say that as someone who's written post-Genesis Spock (though there was a reason why I made his resurrection a plot point in The Brave and the Bold). What he did in Wrath of Khan was a noble sacrifice. What happened in The Search for Spock completely undermined it. For all the interesting fiction that has been done with Spock in a post-TWOK timeframe, I think it was a bad story choice to resurrect him.

On the other hand, considering how TWOK was written, they had two choices: completely ignore it (as the DC comics did until TSFS) or bring him back.

Hardly. They could've moved on. They could've had the characters deal with the loss of their friend and the change in their lives. They could've kept Saavik around and really developed her as the new central Vulcan character of the franchise.

I think people forget that that was sort of the original intention behind the introduction of Saavik. She wasn't meant to be a character who disappeared after 2.1 movies. The idea, at least potentially, was to begin phasing in a new, younger generation of characters who would take over from the old ones. There was a lot of talk about that possibility in fandom and media magazines back in the '80s. It was kind of a surprising reversal when they instead resurrected Spock, phased out Saavik, restored the Enterprise, systematically undid every change they made. And at the time, I thought it was kind of a cowardly choice to revert to the familiar and the formulaic rather than daring to embrace change.

As much as I like heroic sacrifices, I think bringing Spock back was the right choice.

Maybe you'd feel differently if you'd spent the past 25 years getting to know Saavik better and better and coming to think of her as an indispensable part of the crew. I mean, if Spock had stayed dead after TWOK, then we only would've gotten 15 years' worth of him. What new stories might there have been to tell about a younger, female Vulcan/Romulan as opposed to an older, male Vulcan/human? What kinds of new dynamics and complications might we have gotten among the crew if Saavik had stayed in Spock's place?

Sure, there have been worthwhile stories involving Spock since his resurrection. But that makes it a satisfactory choice, not necessarily a superior choice or the only one that would've worked. Who knows how many worthwhile stories we missed out on? If history had gone the other way, I'm sure there'd be people today debating whether Spock should've been brought back, and you might well be insisting that they made the right choice by leaving him dead. We're comfortable with what we're familiar with. I'm not saying that route would've been better, necessarily, but it probably wouldn't have been any less "right" in the long run, just different.

Yes the one problem I have with Star Trek III and to a somewhat lesser extent Star Trek IV they they were basically huge reset buttons.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Maybe you'd feel differently if you'd spent the past 25 years getting to know Saavik better and better and coming to think of her as an indispensable part of the crew.

Not only that, but the only reason Harve Bennett killed off David Marcus in ST III was because it had been decided to return the character of Spock. To rebalance the universe, Kirk forfeited both David and the Enterprise to get Spock back.

 

[Hartzilla2007]

Maybe you'd feel differently if you'd spent the past 25 years getting to know Saavik better and better and coming to think of her as an indispensable part of the crew.

Not only that, but the only reason Harve Bennett killed off David Marcus in ST III was because it had been decided to return the character of Spock. To rebalance the universe, Kirk forfeited both David and the Enterprise to get Spock back.

And then gets a new Enterprise in the next movie after getting bumped back to Captain Kirk.

 

[aelius]

(sniksder said)
(Sorry "her story being told" is a lame excuse to use..)

Margaret took ten minutes of her time to explain her decision to some guy who wandered up and asked a simple question. Her answer was well thought out and quite reasonable. Janeway's character had done everything that she was created to do. She had gotten her people home and settled her outstanding plot threads ( her fiance ) and been promoted to Admiral. Without some kind of contrived plotting she would not realistically be part of the common adventures of the starship Voyager. By killing her they could use that to create drama with the remaining characters and explore their reactions.

(Most likely she wasnt a big Janeway fan, I most likely am in the small group that actually liked Voyager as a tv show, as well as teh charactors from it.)

Implying that she killed a major character just because she didn't like her is doing Margaret a diservice. She made an editorial decision that she had to actually go to paramount and sell them on, including how it could be used to advance the whole of the franchise.
I'd rather not turn this into a Janeway yay or nay thread, such threads already exist.

(As for PAD saying he was the hired assassin is also lame, he has used that excuse as well when asked on why he did certain story plots for the comics that he writes.)

Yeah, I can just imagine that conversation...
Margaret: This manuscript you turned in doesn't kill Janeway.
PAD: Well, I thouhgt that was a little harsh. We don't want to annoy the fans.
Margaret: But that was part of the book contract.
PAD's inner thoughts: Hey, if I don't write what the editor tells me they might not give me more work. How will I feed my kids?
PAD: Just kidding, let me have that back and I'll have the finished version for you next week....
Seriously though. The authors write the stories, but in a franchise the big decisions are made by the editors. Saying "I'm a hired assassin" is a lame excuse shows that you either don't understand that dynamic or are gratuitously insulting authors because you don't like what they wrote.

(At least in this instance Paramount had the good sense to make them make it cloudy on her being dead.)

Paramount, like most businessess is inherantly conservative in their decisions. By insisting on this cloudiness they preserve the greatest amount of future options.

(It's funny in the comic world ther used to be a saying "no one stays dead except for Bucky", well Marvel changed that and brought Bucky back to life.
At some point I am sure Janeway will be resurrected in the Trek book world. )

According to Margaret she has no plans to ever bring Janeway back. I suppose if someone came to her with an awesome story that brought Janeway back she would consider it. After all, the whole idea was to tell good stories.

 

[ClayinCA]

I did a jig on a table top in a bar once because I was told that Janeway was dying in the finale of season 5. Lies, but that was the first time I discovered my true unfetted loathing for the character, I mean I knew she urked me, but hell, my girlfriend at the time couln't even get me to dance... and now finally Kathy's dead. Finally. At last.

Nice.

Couldn't happen to a smarmier person.

I hope Noah Lessing pees on your grave.

Hell must be freezing over, 'cause I completely agree with Guy Gardener.

 

[Therin of Andor]

Implying that she killed a major character just because she didn't like her is doing Margaret a diservice. She made an editorial decision that she had to actually go to paramount and sell them on, including how it could be used to advance the whole of the franchise.

Ironically, just before people started reading and reviewing PAD's novel, there were several rather angry and dismissive threads on this board essentially saying, "When will Pocket Books and CBS Consumer Products ever grow the balls to kill off a major character - and keep them dead?"