James Cameron's "Avatar" (grading and discussion)

[Thespeckledkiwi]

Visually this movie was stunning but it was a little preachy and plodded somewhat along. It was very predictable in many, many places. Without the visuals, this movie was mediocre at best.

Anyone thought Titanic in space?

 

[Awesome Possum]

Visually this movie was stunning but it was a little preachy and plodded somewhat along. It was very predictable in many, many places. Without the visuals, this movie was mediocre at best.

Anyone thought Titanic in space?

It needed the Zane train, it wasn't like he was doing anything.

 

[Hyperspace05]

Anyone thought Titanic in space?

Huh? I have seen people compare it to "Dances with Wolves", "The Last Samurai", and "Dune"... And there are valid points for all those comparisons.

But "Titanic"? Is that seriously the first comparison that jumps to your mind? They both have a romance - that's about the only thing they have in common.

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

Anyone thought Titanic in space?

Huh? I have seen people compare it to "Dances with Wolves", "The Last Samurai", and "Dune"... And there are valid points for all those comparisons.

But "Titanic"? Is that seriously the first comparison that jumps to your mind? They both have a romance - that's about the only thing they have in common.

Yes. The main object in the story (the large tree...whatever they call it) is destroyed. Or well big tree falls and people fall off. There is also a forbidden romance in the movie as well. Plus, it was Cameron's last movie

But meh...it was a very mediocre plotted movie.

 

[Jax]

Breakeven is going to be at 800 mil, given the budget they are ADMITTING at this point. Multiple investors minimized risk a bit, but also limited returns ... nobody will get rich off this except the 3D industry (and I'm hoping that is a short-lived thing myself.)

I don't see how it needs to make $800 million to break even, no studio would sanction such a thing it would be suicide. The budget cost is yet to be truly confirmed but $300-320 sounds right but as someone posted out Tax benefits might drop it. If the Advertising is $150 then I would be surprise because personally I feel the advertising has been quiet compared to Star Trek and other summer titles. The main problem for this movie will be DVD sales will be low due to non 3-D in that format and the same goes for TV showings of the movie.

 

[barnaclelapse]

Let me explain myself further, then...I don't think it had a bad story or terrible dialogue or bad characters or painful acting. I think it was iconic, and used standard tropes to make a film about 12ft tall blue cat people mare accessible. It wasn't any less original than Star Wars was in 1977, which cribbed much, if not all, of its ideas from past sci-fi and other standard hero myth storytelling and most notably, and admittedly from its creator, Kurosawa films. But those stories are considered amazing by most of us. It's not always in the originality of the story, but what you do with it and how you do it, and Avatar did it wonderfully.

That's fair, although I still think Avatar's interpretation of that story (which we've also seen in Dances With Wolves and Pocahontas) wasn't as strong as we know Cameron is capable of making a story.

I really need to see it without the 3D or IMAX. I'm still very curious to see what holds up for me without the bells and whistles.

I'll only argue with you so much though. There were indeed moments in the film where story and acting didn't even occur to me.

 

[AnyStar]

i enjoyed it, it had good storytelling and some good performances, but as an artist i was unimpressed with the aliens animation

they tried so hard to make their eyes so open and glassy, but they just looked flat, there was no ball in eyeball. the textures on the dog things and some of the other animals were rather basic and flat as well. thats just me being nit-picky however!

the cg environments were on the other hand the real star of the film, they were incredible!

 

[David A. Sobral]

I saw "Avatar" on Saturday in 3D. All I can say is it's obvious where some of the $450 million dollar budget went (beautiful & convincing spfx, Sigourney Weaver & James Cameron's salary). Unfortunately, only about $100 went to the story development. Basically, it was "Dances With Wolves" in outer space. The parallels between the Marines & the US Calvary & the blue dudes & Native Americans in the 19th Century is SO obvious. The blue dudes even wear feathers, war paint & let out war cries, as well as ride six-legged "horses" & shoot arrows. They were Native Americans right down to their loincloths.

If you want to see the MOST beautiful & convincing special effects EVER, go see it in 3D. If you want a good story, stay home & rent "Dances With Wolves"...

 

[thumbtack]

Variety reports $73M for the snow-filled weekend.

That's only $6M less than Star Trek's opening, although I realize it cost twice as much as to make as Star Trek.

 

[David A. Sobral]

So how much did it seem to ape from Dances with Wolves? I've been hearing a lot of comparisons, but I don't know how much of that is true versus how much of that is just online bickering.

I've never seen "Dances with Wolves", so I'm afraid I can't do a comparison. Like I said though, the "Na'vi = peace-loving Native Americans" thing is beaten over the head of the audience over and over.

"Avatar" IS "Dancing With Wolves"...albeit on another planet. If you have NOT seen "Dances", you'll enjoy "Avatar". If you HAVE seen "Dances", stay home & wait for the DVD...unless you are really, really, REALLY into seeing some truly gorgeous special effects. I believe this movie will elevate CGI technology to a "true art form". The visuals are, quite literally, breathtaking. I actually experienced a touch of vertigo during the "floating mountain" sequence (how & why that piece of "science" was put in was beyond me...no explanation of how mountains could "float" in an Earth-like gravity situation). Of course, that was the 3D version. How that scene would play "flat" could be entirely different.

 

[Gepard]

(how & why that piece of "science" was put in was beyond me...no explanation of how mountains could "float" in an Earth-like gravity situation).

The movie made multiple mentions of some kind of magnetic flux in the area of the floating mountains; since we saw earlier that unobtanium hovers, I assume the intention is that the rocks are laced with that mineral and they interact with the magnetic anomaly to produce the antigravity. Though if that's the case, it would beg the question of why it wouldn't be more economical and less homicidal to just yank the floating mountians off the planet and extract the unobtanium from them instead of from under a thousand hostile natives.

 

[The Comedian]

Why the Na'vi might live happily ever after:

This planet, I understand, is in the Alpha Centauri system.

That means it will be 4 years before Earth even hears of the rebellion (2158).

About 5.5 years before the surviving Earthmen get back to explain what happened (2159.5)

Now let's assume that there are Earthlings who are going to take a strong "no war for unobtanium" stance, along with truly thinking conservatives who understand that the Na'vi were, in fact, defending their private property (which is the real message of this movie; don't steal shit that ain't yours, monkey boy) - the Company is going to have to deal with this somehow, along with the fact that nobody really likes losers. So funding for the Great Pandora Invasion Fleet is going to be somewhat difficult to come by, even if a Bush is President-CEO of Earth. So let's say, four years minimum to get all this put together, even if it's possible at all. Huge expenses involved here.

So really, is the Company going to glass Pandora, really? Are Earthlings really going to tolerate genocide? I doubt it. Right now, you have to have O2 masks to survive on Pandora; are you really willing to have your people work in radiation suits, too?

So assuming the glassing Pandora option is out, President George W. Bush V decides to invade. That means the mighty Earthling army will have to fight a bush war at the end of a 5.5 year long one way trip supply line, against a whole planet where the natives know the land better than you and can make their weapons right there...unlike you, General Halliburton, who has to have every single bullet and gallon of chopper fuel, every man and gun and helicopter, shipped to you over 4 light years of interstellar space.

Costly. VERY costly. And in the meantime the Na'vi are going to have at least a decade to develop better weapons, tactics and, also, to dig in.

 

[The Comedian]

(how & why that piece of "science" was put in was beyond me...no explanation of how mountains could "float" in an Earth-like gravity situation).

The movie made multiple mentions of some kind of magnetic flux in the area of the floating mountains; since we saw earlier that unobtanium hovers, I assume the intention is that the rocks are laced with that mineral and they interact with the magnetic anomaly to produce the antigravity. Though if that's the case, it would beg the question of why it wouldn't be more economical and less homicidal to just yank the floating mountians off the planet and extract the unobtanium from them instead of from under a thousand hostile natives.

And one would assume that if one gas giant moon has unobtainium, others might as well. Unless the mineral is a byproduct of Pandora's ecosphere.

This is the big plot hole in "V" - there's water on Mars, the Moon, and all over the place on Europa and Titan and other places. Why fight Earthlings for it when you can just stick a faucet on Europa and take what you need?

 

[Robert Maxwell]

(how & why that piece of "science" was put in was beyond me...no explanation of how mountains could "float" in an Earth-like gravity situation).

The movie made multiple mentions of some kind of magnetic flux in the area of the floating mountains; since we saw earlier that unobtanium hovers, I assume the intention is that the rocks are laced with that mineral and they interact with the magnetic anomaly to produce the antigravity. Though if that's the case, it would beg the question of why it wouldn't be more economical and less homicidal to just yank the floating mountians off the planet and extract the unobtanium from them instead of from under a thousand hostile natives.

Seems like it was a matter of bang for the buck. There was unobtanium all over the planet. But the richest deposit was under that giant tree. If they could get at that, they could extract a lot more of it for a lot less money, since they'd have a far smaller area to work with, and presumably the ore has a much higher density of unobtanium. Suppose you were getting 5% unobtanium from your current ore extractions, and you could get 15% from the ore under the tree. You're tripling your extraction rate, and as a bonus, it's all in one spot, so you can set up shop and dig at it for a good long time.

 

[Dark Gilligan]

Huh? I have seen people compare it to "Dances with Wolves", "The Last Samurai", and "Dune"... And there are valid points for all those comparisons. But "Titanic"? Is that seriously the first comparison that jumps to your mind? They both have a romance - that's about the only thing they have in common.

Titanic is immediately what came to my mind as well. Not in story content but in how the film was made. Heavy on visual impact and spectacle but very light in the weight of its script and dialogue. As the film progresses though the real comparison is with Cameron's Aliens, from which virtually all of Avatar's characters and plot devices are copied.

 

[Gepard]

Seems like it was a matter of bang for the buck. There was unobtanium all over the planet. But the richest deposit was under that giant tree. If they could get at that, they could extract a lot more of it for a lot less money, since they'd have a far smaller area to work with, and presumably the ore has a much higher density of unobtanium. Suppose you were getting 5% unobtanium from your current ore extractions, and you could get 15% from the ore under the tree. You're tripling your extraction rate, and as a bonus, it's all in one spot, so you can set up shop and dig at it for a good long time.

Perfectly possible, and we are, of course, speculating in the total absence of any information on authorial intent here. But without further information, my reaction is still that if the floating mountains are either made of unobtanium or contain enough of it to lift all that rock and biomass into the air, there must be a lot. And since it's free-floating, there's no need to dig or do any mining in the traditional sense – it's literally floating there, free for the taking. Why wouldn't that at least be worth pursuing as an alternative?

 

[Hyperspace05]

Mining it directly from the floating mountains would be difficult for a few reasons:
1) I assume the intense flux is making them hover there - once removed pieces will be much heavier
2) The flux is interfering with machinery
3) It was also some distance away from the base

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Mining it directly from the floating mountains would be difficult for a few reasons:
1) I assume the intense flux is making them hover there - once removed pieces will be much heavier
2) The flux is interfering with machinery
3) It was also some distance away from the base

All good points. It would be exceedingly dangerous to mine it from the floating mountains. If you had a complex operation going on up there, the odds of people ramming into each other are pretty high. Plus, there's the expense of hefting the ore down to be refined. Not sure the islands are big enough to support a full-on refinery operation.

While it seems likely the floating islands have high concentrations of unobtanium, they are difficult to get at and it would be hard to have a permanent mining operation under the circumstances. Much easier to just do it on the ground.

 

[Gepard]

I concede the point about mining from them in situ.

Though what about strapping a rocket or something to one of the mountains and moving it out of the flux field? If it were allowed to fall to the ground in an area where the machinery worked properly, it would address the problems you mentioned.

 

[DarthPipes]

I just wanted to get back to one point...if surgery existed to repair serious damage to the spine, soldiers would be the first ones to get it. People like Jake Sully wouldn't have to worry about not having the money to pay for it. But Cameron insisted on going with the one-dimensional, wacky liberal interpretation with this one.