Jadzia Idaris (mirror) - Joined to Dax, or not??

[Paul Weaver]

I know that's how it normally works, but can't they negotiate around that if everyone agrees?

They can. And did it with Salome Jens in Heart of Stone.

Peter Williams as Apohis turned up I the last 5 seconds of an SG1 two parter. His name wasnt in the start credits, but he got a special blank slate at the end saying he was a special guest star.

However that was a shock reveal. Not like Jack O'Neill in the "200" episode at the end of act 2, where they acknowledge there's no way he wouldn't be in the trailer.

Back in STIII, did you really not know Spock was going to be in a film called "the search for Spock?"

 

[chrinFinity]

Back in STIII, did you really not know Spock was going to be in a film called "the search for Spock?"

I was like two years old when that movie came out, but in historical context, it was supposed to be a surprise.

 

[The Wormhole]

Like honestly -- If the union won't let you put the credit at the end of the show, could you at least not have it say "TUVOK?" For crying out loud.

I don't see the big deal. It's not a pivotal role for the episode, the sudden appearance of Tuvok isn't really a surprise or a plot twist, just a fun little crossover. I'm pretty sure the main purpose of it was just to have a Voyager character show up on DS9. As it turns, the first time I saw the episode I missed the opening credits, and seeing Tuvok unexpectedly show up on DS9, while a nice moment, doesn't add anything over all to the enjoyment of the episode.

The part I have more of a problem with is Mirror Bashir, in the context of what we later learned about the character. Presumably he didn't have genetic enhancements, so he should be mentally disabled. Granted, he didn't seem all that bright, but not to the extent that Bashir reputedly was before his genetic engineering.

I always interpreted that as meaning Bashir wasn't really the lost cause he's made out to be and that what he really had was some sort of learning disorder or really short attention span, or anything like that and his parents overreacted and had him genetically enhanced. Had he not been enhanced, he would have eventually turned out normal. Maybe he wouldn't be graduating second in his class in medical school, but he wouldn't be a moron either.

 

[Christopher]

I always interpreted that as meaning Bashir wasn't really the lost cause he's made out to be and that what he really had was some sort of learning disorder or really short attention span, or anything like that and his parents overreacted and had him genetically enhanced. Had he not been enhanced, he would have eventually turned out normal. Maybe he wouldn't be graduating second in his class in medical school, but he wouldn't be a moron either.

Yeah, but unfortunately, Mission: Gamma -- Cathedral shows the unenhanced Bashir's disability as being rather more severe than that.

 

[Enterprise1701]

Perhaps the genetic issues that our Bashir had were caused by some form of mutation early in the pregnancy when his mother was on a ship flying past a solar flare, which didn't happen in the mirror universe? So while he wasn't super-Bashir, he didnt need the augmentation to keep up with the rest.

To be honest the way so many generations of slaves managed to get together with the right counterparts to produce the same children is more of a issue for me

Could that explain why mirror Kira, Ezri, Leeta, etc. have different sexual orientations than their prime doppelgangers?

I think mirror Bashir's conception and birth could easily have occurred under completely different circumstances. After all, this is a very different quantum reality. Mirror Molly, for example, was born roughly 12 years after her prime counterpart.

 

[borgboy]

Perhaps the genetic issues that our Bashir had were caused by some form of mutation early in the pregnancy when his mother was on a ship flying past a solar flare, which didn't happen in the mirror universe? So while he wasn't super-Bashir, he didnt need the augmentation to keep up with the rest.

To be honest the way so many generations of slaves managed to get together with the right counterparts to produce the same children is more of a issue for me

Could that explain why mirror Kira, Ezri, Leeta, etc. have different sexual orientations than their prime doppelgangers?

I think mirror Bashir's conception and birth could easily have occurred under completely different circumstances. After all, this is a very different quantum reality. Mirror Molly, for example, was born roughly 12 years after her prime counterpart.

When the first DS9 MU episode came out, I did wonder if that meant that the real Kira was really bi too. I don't think there really is any explanation that can explain why all the women in the MU seem to be bi, other than the rather homophobic and sexist attitudes of evil being sexier and less moral, so they're all bi. But only the women because bisexual men don't titilate heterosexual male sci fi fans apparently.
I can't see how every female character in the MU's bisexuality can be explained away by solar flares or whatever. If it were just Kira, maybe, but when it's every single female character on DS9 and the various novels have expanded to further than that. The Darker Passions duology, in a a different continuity that the main Litverse, featured nearly every female character from the 24 century as being bisexual.
I don't know exactly what to make of it, but I know there's a non MU alternate universe in the comics where Ro and Tasha Yar are a couple.

 

[Christopher]

Could that explain why mirror Kira, Ezri, Leeta, etc. have different sexual orientations than their prime doppelgangers?

Who says they do? Just because someone is currently involved with someone of the opposite sex, that doesn't mean they're incapable of interest in the same sex. Heck, "The Host" and "Rejoined" made it clear that joined Trill have very flexible orientation. And "Rejoined" also implied that Bajorans consider gender a non-issue in relationship choice, given Kira's casual acceptance of the idea of Jadzia getting together with Lenara.

 

[borgboy]

It is nice the way Kira was so accepting of Jadzia being with another woman. The whole gender/orientation thing was a non issue for Kira at least in her support of her friends' relationships. That's really the best on screen gay moment in Trek for me, Kira's support. Kira is very traditionally religious in the Bajoran faith, which suggests that the Bajorans have no cultural taboo against homosexuality.

That is an interesting suggestion Christopher that the women of the MU have the same orientation as the regular versions. I could get behind that idea if it were explored in the novels. It never really worked for me that the MU versions had a different sexual orientation just because they were evil. Of course, it's problematic at best that we don't actually see any evidence for those women to be bi in the regular universe while seeing all of them established in the MU as bi. That's an issue the tv series left us with though.
Do any of the novels explore the idea of the MU men's bisexuality? There are still quite a few I haven't read yet, so I may just be unaware of it. There is of course that onscreen hint about Garek, but then that's consistent with his canon characterization.

 

[Sci]

Granted that the depiction of bisexuality in the canonical DS9 MU episodes was somewhat heterosexist -- essentially, women are bi to titillate the heterosexual male audience members.

But, one thing to consider about Kira, Leeta, Ezri, etc. -- these women are all non-Humans. Sure, Humans have the trait of being consistently and strongly attracted to a particular sex(es), which we call sexual orientation. But who's to say that the concept of distinct sexual orientations applies to a Trill or a Bajoran? Maybe all Bajorans who have gone through puberty have a strong and consistent sexual attraction to both sexes, and are therefore what Humans would consider bisexual. Or maybe the same is true of Trill.

After all, there's still controversy today over whether sexual orientation describes something biological and innate (the essentialist school of thought) or something that exists as a cultural construct (the constructionist school) -- and mind you, these schools of thought both exist within the LGBT rights movement; not all pro-LGBT people conceptualized sexual orientation as something innate and biological. So why would we assume Bajoran or Trill sexuality would be any less complex -- let along Mirror Universe Bajoran or Trill sexuality?

That's not to say that the canonical DS9 MU depiction of same-sex relationships was itself particularly great. But in the abstract, there's nothing that necessarily requires us to think that an MU character (especially an MU non-Human) who has a same-sex relationship must be of a different sexual orientation from their Prime Universe counterparts.

 

[borgboy]

Granted that the depiction of bisexuality in the canonical DS9 MU episodes was somewhat heterosexist -- essentially, women are bi to titillate the heterosexual male audience members.

But, one thing to consider about Kira, Leeta, Ezri, etc. -- these women are all non-Humans. Sure, Humans have the trait of being consistently and strongly attracted to a particular sex(es), which we call sexual orientation. But who's to say that the concept of distinct sexual orientations applies to a Trill or a Bajoran? Maybe all Bajorans who have gone through puberty have a strong and consistent sexual attraction to both sexes, and are therefore what Humans would consider bisexual. Or maybe the same is true of Trill.

After all, there's still controversy today over whether sexual orientation describes something biological and innate (the essentialist school of thought) or something that exists as a cultural construct (the constructionist school) -- and mind you, these schools of thought both exist within the LGBT rights movement; not all pro-LGBT people conceptualized sexual orientation as something innate and biological. So why would we assume Bajoran or Trill sexuality would be any less complex -- let along Mirror Universe Bajoran or Trill sexuality?

That's not to say that the canonical DS9 MU depiction of same-sex relationships was itself particularly great. But in the abstract, there's nothing that necessarily requires us to think that an MU character (especially an MU non-Human) who has a same-sex relationship must be of a different sexual orientation from their Prime Universe counterparts.

There's a lot of interesting ideas here, and some of them I feel like I need to contemplate on them before I decide what I think of it.
I do believe that *my* sexual orientation is biological and innate at the very least. I don't feel the least bit fluid and never have for what that's worth. I recently had a long debate on this issue. Some people may be fluid, and I'm sure many people are some degree of bisexual, but I believe some people really are just gay or straight.

One issue I'd have with the idea of all Trill or Bajorans being bisexual is that it already strains credibility that we never really see gay couples in Trek but lots and lots of hetero couples - and not just the main characters, but all the one episode guest stars and even nameless extras in Ten Forward and what not. There's a lot more heterosexuality on screen than you might realize.

So the lack of same sex couples is even more glaringly unrealistic if all Bajorans are bisexual but we just never happen to see a same sex couple holding hands at Quarks. The lack of LGBT diversity would be increasingly hard to believe if there were even more LGBT people out there than the 5 to 10% that we generally think of as being out there. But we're already dealing with serious erasure of gays anyways. If the novels or some future movie/tv series wanted to reveal that an established alien race saw bisexuality as the norm I certainly wouldn't object.

I am quite warming up to the idea of all the real universe versions of DS9's bi MU women being bi too, even if the lack of male gay/bi characters is still appalling.

 

[Markonian]

There's no in-universe explanation springing to mind that would justify the lack of non-heteronormative relationships we see on screen. It reminds me of another issue, the homo sapiens-only club that Starfleet is on the small and big screen.

The latter can be easily explained for a lack of trying in terms of diversity on Starfleet's part. (TOS: Ex Machina, TTN: Orion's Hounds) I believe the former has to be ignored because of the limitations of the medium with regards to the time and place of its production.

Generally, I enjoy explaining glitches away, like Idaris ignoring Sisko's new "Dax" nickname for her. Other issues require to be ignored to make sense. We know the Federation is liberal and tolerant (except towards artificial lifeforms), the screen just won't reflect that because of the current social climate. Don't hold your breath for seeing same-sex references in ST3 - because it's still a 21st century US movie and not docu-fiction about the 23rd century Federation.

 

[Kilana2]

This has been driving me crazy.

I don't see how it makes sense that Jadzia is joined in the Mirror Universe, but Sisko calls her "Dax" in Through the Looking Glass and she doesn't bat an eye.

What's the deal here? protip: Dark Passions and Shatnerverse don't count so let's not even bother with that. But I've read all David Mack's stuff, and if it was covered in there, it escapes me now.

You have raised a question I´ve asked myself for a while. Given that MU Jadzia doesn´t act like being joined and someone, I think it was Chakotay, described her as "having good looks but no personality", it is clear to me, that MU Jadzia can´t be joined.

 

[Tosk]

Mirror Dax could just be a lazy slug that doesn't care much about influencing the host.

Plus, that line sounds like it could just as easily be describing season 1 Jadzia in the regular universe.

 

[Christopher]

After all, there's still controversy today over whether sexual orientation describes something biological and innate (the essentialist school of thought) or something that exists as a cultural construct (the constructionist school) -- and mind you, these schools of thought both exist within the LGBT rights movement; not all pro-LGBT people conceptualized sexual orientation as something innate and biological.

I think it's probably a mix of both. A potential may exist innately, but whether you embrace and develop it can be a matter of personal choice and social context. Surveys tend to show that the rate of homo- or bisexuality in the general public is somewhere from 2 to 10 percent depending on the survey, but I heard of one college survey where nearly 2/3 of female students acknowledged some degree of same-sex attraction or curiosity; and though the percentage of male students who said the same was lower, it was still above what's generally assumed about society as a whole. I suspect that the majority of people have it in them to be flexible about their orientation, but whether they choose to acknowledge or cultivate that flexibility depends on the social context. College students are likely to be more tolerant and willing to experiment than the general population, which could explain why the percentages were higher in the college survey; and women in our culture are raised to be more comfortable with same-sex affection and touch than men are, which could account for why more female students than male ones were open to exploring sexual intimacy with their own sex.

Of course, it's just one survey, so it'd take more evidence to know if its findings were really reliable and what they really meant. But it does suggest that sexual orientation/activity is influenced by a mix of inborn and environmental factors.

Of course, I don't like the idea that there's a taboo against same-sex activity in the Prime universe, but it could be that there's a stronger social pressure to be bisexual in the Mirror Universe for some reason. Perhaps because they treat sex as a tool for power, as the Intendant does. Maybe for them it's not even really about attraction, but about controlling and manipulating people. And it's not as effective a tool if you're only willing to wield it against half the people around you.

 

[Kilana2]

Mirror Dax could just be a lazy slug that doesn't care much about influencing the host.

Plus, that line sounds like it could just as easily be describing season 1 Jadzia in the regular universe.

Or Bashirs fantasy Jadzia, season 1 (if wishes were horses)

 

[JD]

On a somewhat related note: Is there any explanation given as to why Vic Fontaine is a person and not a hologram in the Mirror Universe?

I don't think that's been addressed in the books. My theory is that Vic is a fictional composite created by Felix, rather than an actual (in-universe) 20th-century Rat Packer, and that Felix used some friend of his (or hired an actor) named Fontaine as the template for the holographic character. And the guy we saw in "The Emperor's New Cloak" was the Mirror counterpart to that guy.

I remember reading somewhere that he was an android. I thought it was in one of the books, but now I'm wondering if it was just a theory somebody posted here.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Yeah, I think it's just a theory. As far as I know, "mirror Vic" has only appeared once (onscreen or off), and it was in that episode we're discussing. No writer has ever tried to explain who, or what, he actually is. It was just a one-off cameo appearance.

 

[Idran]

On a somewhat related note: Is there any explanation given as to why Vic Fontaine is a person and not a hologram in the Mirror Universe?

I don't think that's been addressed in the books. My theory is that Vic is a fictional composite created by Felix, rather than an actual (in-universe) 20th-century Rat Packer, and that Felix used some friend of his (or hired an actor) named Fontaine as the template for the holographic character. And the guy we saw in "The Emperor's New Cloak" was the Mirror counterpart to that guy.

I remember reading somewhere that he was an android. I thought it was in one of the books, but now I'm wondering if it was just a theory somebody posted here.

I remember seeing that theory too, though I can't remember where from either. It came from both the question about how mirror-Fontaine existed and the sparks that inexplicably shot out of his body when he was shot, if I remember right.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I bet James Darren really had a lot of fun doing that episode, BTW. "Mirror Vic" just seemed like a wish fulfillment fantasy come to life. Both for the character, in-universe, and Darren himself - all he usually got to do on the show was sing, and I'm sure he was chomping at the bit to be an action hero, even if it was only for a minute or so!

 

[Enterprise1701]

On a somewhat related note: Is there any explanation given as to why Vic Fontaine is a person and not a hologram in the Mirror Universe?

I don't think that's been addressed in the books. My theory is that Vic is a fictional composite created by Felix, rather than an actual (in-universe) 20th-century Rat Packer, and that Felix used some friend of his (or hired an actor) named Fontaine as the template for the holographic character. And the guy we saw in "The Emperor's New Cloak" was the Mirror counterpart to that guy.

Have the novels ever explained why "The Emperor's New Cloak" presented that there were no cloaking devices in the mirror universe?