I sometimes wonder if I'd be like Bones if I'd stuck around for all the series of nuWho and kept posting on here about it.
I've Given Up...
- Thread starter DangerMouse
- Start date
Ah well, I've only been posting since this series began.
And I mean in the way everyone here reacts to your negativity about the RTD years.
And I mean in the way everyone here reacts to your negativity about the RTD years.
I'm watching the show still and enjoy it to some extent, but I think that it has lost a lot of the 'magic' it had in the Russell Davies years.... it's kind of lost it's heart and soul, that's the only way that I can explain it. it's not just Rory that's a bit 'limp' and 'wet', the series as a whole is getting a bit that way.
That really about sums it up for me, as well.
Now, hear me out, before you say I'm just in no-more-Ten denial: I watch the series, haven't missed an episode yet, and have high hopes for it. Moff has turned in some great work and I think he certainly gave us a wonderful debut episode in "Eleventh Hour," marred only by Matt Smith trying a bit too hard to channel Tennent, but given the need to win over doubting Thomases such as myself, that's quite understandable.
And I have nothing in particular against Rory, either: he's the tin dog, and that works in the series, if done right.
I have nothing against Amy or Eleven, either. They are what they are: attractive, slightly quirky young people. But, try as I might, I can't seem to find that intangible something that is supposed to draw me in. They're enjoyable enough to watch, but I just don't find myself drawn to them any more than I find myself driven away.
They're just...Okay.
I suspect Matt Smith-and the Moffett era as a whole, will be a bit of an aquired taste-despite the continued RTD bashing (and yes, his era did have its flaws, but Who owes it's existence as well as its current appeal to him, and he gave us arguably the two finest Doctors ever)-for a great many. And that's fine. That's usually the case when a new Doctor and a new production team come in.
The problem is, condemn RTD for melodrama as much as you like, but he made it interesting, impossible not to be drawn in.
Now don't get me wrong here, gang: The series is enjoyable, but there's just not a lot in there to hold my interest, at least not to the same degree.
Nor do I have issues with Matt Smith, per se: he's a good actor with a certain quirky quality, but so far, his take on the Doctor seems a tad...unremarkable. Not quite bland, but not all that far from it.
Smith has talent, but he's not bringing a lot of appeal as yet to the role, not all that strongly. Smith would make an amazing character in Who, but thus far, his stand-offish take on the Doctor hasn't yet brought anything to make it stand apart from the others.
Stand-offish is fine, a slong as you make up for it. Pertwee and Eccleston, for example, were stand-offish, but sure had dynamism to make up for it.
Note I say "yet". It's still "early days" and we'll see what happens.
Without the fire of Nine or the angst and charisma of Ten, he needs to being something uniquely his own, something strong to the role and so far, I'm still waiting for it. Maybe he'll need a whole series to find his feet-Lord knows, he's not being helped by scripts like "Victory of the Daleks" or those hideous Power Rangers Nu Daleks.
What I'm hoping to see when I watch Smith's stories is heart.
You don't need to have angst and melodrama to have heart, and though the series has some fine moments, it has lost some of it's heart.
"Low key" is perfectly fine, and lord knows, I don't envy anyone reinventing a popular brand, but Moff's changes went, in some cases, a bit too far. I won't say "bland" but a lot of the excitement, fun and appeal of the series seems to have been lost with the changeover. For that matter, even Murray Gold's theme is the weakest nu Who theme to date-it reminds me a bit too strongly of the horrible Sylvester McCoy era theme.
Yes, the new take may be an aquired taste and Who is about change, but change needs to entail improvement-or at least consistent quality-on a series. It's enjoyable enough-Stories like the Weeping Angels arc were wonderful-but spotty.
Alex Kingston's electric presence was overwhelming, and it's to Smith's credit he held his own, but she definitely outshone him in several scenes. It's a matter of presence.
I wonder, frankly, if there was, as I said before, a definite eye cast towards fangirls and fanboys and the Twilight fanbase in general when Smith and Gillen were cast, their talent and low-key quirkiness notwithstanding.
Okay, okay, so I'm keeping an open mind, here. The series is not over yet, but so far, Smith-while not the shock to the system Colin Baker's Doctor was (and that was due to bad stories and the fact he never got to complete his character arc as planned)-has yet to bring something to the role that will enable me to see him as more than just "okay". I'm hoping he will, and continue to hold out hopes, but so far, it's not happened yet.
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Hmm. I'm gonna say no.
Oh really? That sounds like a real open mind there.
Now, now. It's rude to presume.
RTD did indeed have the ability to draw viewers in, through melodrama or hype (and admittedly some less than stellar ideas, such as the overdone Rose romance), but draw them in he did, and that's why the series is still around. Now, Moff has the luxury of using that appeal, that audience to test a bold new approach to the series. That is a very gutsy thing to do.
Okay, let Moff reinvent. No problem. but when he reinvents, I just hope that something genuinely....wonderful happens. I've seen "enjoyable" but so far, "wonderful" hasn't happened yet-and it may yet. I have high hopes for the finale.
If he wants a low key approach, fine and dandy, but don't condemn me because I don't find it as enjoyable as you do. I'm quite open minded, in fact, because I'm willing to change my mind. I really do hope Smith and Moff's new take wins me over. So far, though, his characterization just isn't terribly strong.
I remember Peter Davison saying once that he deliberately started his role as the Doctor fairly bland, so he could expand and build later on. He felt it was easier to gradually go from bland to strong (his terms) than to start out too strong and dial it back-sensible enough. Perhaps that's what Smith and Moffett are doing here. We'll see in due time.
I'm just still waiting for it. For the record, it's too early just yet to decide on any pronouncement so bold as Moff is doing a bad job or that Smith was miscast in the lead role. I'm not all that terrifically won over by Smith yet, but I'm quite willing to give him a chance to prove himself. It may take well into the next season before he completely settles in. That's happened in the past. Again, no problem.
So, yeah, I think it will take a while for the new series to find its feet, and I really hope it does, but it hasn't happened yet. Overall, the current season's episodes have been fairly decent all in all. I'd recommend, if I had Moff's ear getting rid of Gatiss and Roberts in terms of script writing, but it's early days and you never know who may crop up.
So far, my take on the new series is "fairly decent".
RTD did indeed have the ability to draw viewers in, through melodrama or hype (and admittedly some less than stellar ideas, such as the overdone Rose romance), but draw them in he did, and that's why the series is still around. Now, Moff has the luxury of using that appeal, that audience to test a bold new approach to the series. That is a very gutsy thing to do.
Okay, let Moff reinvent. No problem. but when he reinvents, I just hope that something genuinely....wonderful happens. I've seen "enjoyable" but so far, "wonderful" hasn't happened yet-and it may yet. I have high hopes for the finale.
If he wants a low key approach, fine and dandy, but don't condemn me because I don't find it as enjoyable as you do. I'm quite open minded, in fact, because I'm willing to change my mind. I really do hope Smith and Moff's new take wins me over. So far, though, his characterization just isn't terribly strong.
I remember Peter Davison saying once that he deliberately started his role as the Doctor fairly bland, so he could expand and build later on. He felt it was easier to gradually go from bland to strong (his terms) than to start out too strong and dial it back-sensible enough. Perhaps that's what Smith and Moffett are doing here. We'll see in due time.
I'm just still waiting for it. For the record, it's too early just yet to decide on any pronouncement so bold as Moff is doing a bad job or that Smith was miscast in the lead role. I'm not all that terrifically won over by Smith yet, but I'm quite willing to give him a chance to prove himself. It may take well into the next season before he completely settles in. That's happened in the past. Again, no problem.
So, yeah, I think it will take a while for the new series to find its feet, and I really hope it does, but it hasn't happened yet. Overall, the current season's episodes have been fairly decent all in all. I'd recommend, if I had Moff's ear getting rid of Gatiss and Roberts in terms of script writing, but it's early days and you never know who may crop up.
So far, my take on the new series is "fairly decent".
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Who's presuming? You're stating as fact something I disagree with (and making assumptions about the casting that are unfounded btw (Twilight, really?*)). Yes, obviously the show under RTD appealed to a lot of people. I even found the odd enjoyable ep, and even enjoyable moments in the worst eps. But to say that it was impossible not to be drawn in is hyperbolic at best.
And I'm not condemning you for having a problem with it. You liked the RTD years more, I prefer this latest series. What I do have a problem with is the sense of entitlement, that because it's not being done your/RTD's way, it must be wrong, or as you say, "an acquired taste". You don't seem to consider that others have found those wonderful moments you so miss.
Take this quote. You say you're open minded, and that you hope the new series ends up growing on you. But in the next sentence, you're not saying "I'm just not feeling the characters atm", you're unambiguously dissing it. It's not just a difference of opinion, it's "his characterization just isn't terribly strong".
I hope you do grow to enjoy this new series, but not just because it starts fitting back into your world view. Since I came back to the show with Moffat and Smith, I've gone back and watched a number of episodes I deliberately missed first time around that I've discovered to be quite enjoyable, even if they're not to my exact taste (Human Nature, for example).
*Just for the record, Moffat says he was looking to cast a Doctor in their 40s, a statement that jives with similar comments he's made over the years, going back to the 90s, over what age he thinks should play the Doctor. But then Matt Smith came in and blew him away. And given the many rave reviews he's recieved, even by some of those unhappy with this current series overall, I'd say it's not an unlikely story.
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There's also the fact that the BBC has been continuously skewing younger and younger in its casting and programming decisions and this is just more of the same. That, in itself, is not news.
Personally, I wonder if maybe there wasn't a nudge from BBC to cast someone younger, Moff's own original preferences notwithstanding. Smith simply lacks gravitas-maybe he'll develop it as the series settles.
So Moff was "blown away". All well and good.. So far, I'm still waiting to be and, as I said, I hope I will be.
Yes, RTD's era was flawed but we tend to forget, in the midst of our reflexive bashing, how much the series owes to him. Maybe he was indulging (some would say rightly overindulging) in mawkish sentimentality and over-the-top bombast, but he added an excitement that was sorely lacking under the tenure of JNT, who, to be fair, was more a logistics man than a creative force.
My personal favorite RTD story of all the series was "Midnight"-amazing what you can do with virtually no special effects, no companion, just strong writing and a good performance.
I saw a somewhat interesting comment on the Telegraph website dating to the original casting announcement, relating (surprisingly) to BBC politics and casting matters and I'll include it here in its entirety. Ignore the snide commentary and there's a surprisingly thought provoking idea in there:
Oh, and saying I'm waiting for something to fit into my preconceived world view, accusing me-sight unseen-of having a "sense of entitlement" and generally demeaning my opinion are rather more than a bit presumptious. Whether you agree with me or not, my saying that Smith's character is not terribly strong is my opinion, and I have as much right to voice my opinion as you do yours.
I'm not going to bother with a pissing match-I'm here to talk about stories and casting and what the next season will bring, pure and simple.
Personally, I wonder if maybe there wasn't a nudge from BBC to cast someone younger, Moff's own original preferences notwithstanding. Smith simply lacks gravitas-maybe he'll develop it as the series settles.
So Moff was "blown away". All well and good.. So far, I'm still waiting to be and, as I said, I hope I will be.
Yes, RTD's era was flawed but we tend to forget, in the midst of our reflexive bashing, how much the series owes to him. Maybe he was indulging (some would say rightly overindulging) in mawkish sentimentality and over-the-top bombast, but he added an excitement that was sorely lacking under the tenure of JNT, who, to be fair, was more a logistics man than a creative force.
My personal favorite RTD story of all the series was "Midnight"-amazing what you can do with virtually no special effects, no companion, just strong writing and a good performance.
I saw a somewhat interesting comment on the Telegraph website dating to the original casting announcement, relating (surprisingly) to BBC politics and casting matters and I'll include it here in its entirety. Ignore the snide commentary and there's a surprisingly thought provoking idea in there:
Blog replies are-by their very nature-to be taken with a grain of salt. If one ignores the hyperbole and rather snide accusation at the end, one can pick out a liittle bit of insight here, about the potential pitfalls of casting too young a lead in particular. Now, whether that is the case with Eleven, we'll have to just wait and see. For the record, no, I don't entirely agree with it, but it's an interesting look at what may go on behind the scenes.
Oh, and saying I'm waiting for something to fit into my preconceived world view, accusing me-sight unseen-of having a "sense of entitlement" and generally demeaning my opinion are rather more than a bit presumptious. Whether you agree with me or not, my saying that Smith's character is not terribly strong is my opinion, and I have as much right to voice my opinion as you do yours.
I'm not going to bother with a pissing match-I'm here to talk about stories and casting and what the next season will bring, pure and simple.
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If you take the snideness and condescension out of that quote, there's nothing left.
Yeah, with blog posts you have to take 'em with a large grain of salt and have to pick and hunt an awful lot to find anything remotely useful in any of them. The point about the possible dangers of casting too young in a lead was at least thought provoking.
Now, I disagree that Smith's casting was "a mistake they intended to make". I think it may be a blind spot on the part of the production team in terms of what the audience actually looks for in a series lead. That's the thought provoking thing I took from the post, anyway, and it's worth thinking about, this idea that producers prefer young series leads far more than young audiences actually do.
But then again, like I said, casting younger is "in" with the Beeb these days. When Smith's casting was announced, my impression was that an actor Tennent's age was really the youngest they should go without losing the title character's gravitas, unless the young lead is really exceptional.
Ah, well, like I said, I'll wait and see what the next few episodes bring. I really can't say any more, one way or the other, until I've seen at least an entire series.
But back to the topic at hand, I have no problems with Rory. His moment of nobility in Amy's Choice notwithstanding, he's the tin dog, and that's cool. Playing comedy relief is a tough job.
Now, I disagree that Smith's casting was "a mistake they intended to make". I think it may be a blind spot on the part of the production team in terms of what the audience actually looks for in a series lead. That's the thought provoking thing I took from the post, anyway, and it's worth thinking about, this idea that producers prefer young series leads far more than young audiences actually do.
But then again, like I said, casting younger is "in" with the Beeb these days. When Smith's casting was announced, my impression was that an actor Tennent's age was really the youngest they should go without losing the title character's gravitas, unless the young lead is really exceptional.
Ah, well, like I said, I'll wait and see what the next few episodes bring. I really can't say any more, one way or the other, until I've seen at least an entire series.
But back to the topic at hand, I have no problems with Rory. His moment of nobility in Amy's Choice notwithstanding, he's the tin dog, and that's cool. Playing comedy relief is a tough job.
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Re the age thing I've said it before and I'll say it again. Tennant was cast too young, he didn't fit into the role for about a year. Smith on the other hand is younger yet seems much older. I find the Twilight allusions literally hilarious. Amy is young...er actually an awful lot of Doctor companions have been young/younger. Susan, Zoe, Jo, Sarah Jane, Ace, Rose, Martha....that puts that to bed I think. As for Smith... well I'm sure all those girls/women who love Twilight for it's brooding strong muscley boys are wetting themselves over the bowlegged, oddly dressed bumbling old man in a young body we have from Smith. Smith in real life might appeal, but Smith as the Doctor? I doubt it.If they were going for the Twilight crowd they'd have dressed him how he was dressed in the original promo shots all in black.
Now this doesn't mean the BBC weren't trying to skew the casting young. Moffat said when he got the original list that there were too many young actors on it for his liking, but I think anyone who imagines Smith was hired because he was young...well, lets be honest I bet there were handsomer men on offer (and he is handsome from certain angles but not from others) It's hard to imagine how anyone could have topped him in the audition process, and to me at least its clear to see why Moffat and co chose him.
Personally I think he has gravitas. Maybe not as much as Eccleston, but probably more than Tennant had in his first season. And I do think we need to compare Moff's first season with RTDs...
Rose vs. The Eleventh Hour: 11th Hour kicks Rose's arse, so much better it's untrue (although it had a longer running time and less to introduce I guess)
The End of the World vs. The Beast Below: Probably about as good as each other.
The Unquiet Dead vs. Victory of the Daleks: Gatiss for the win, zombies beat Daleks.
Slitheen 2 parter vs Angels 2 parter: Anyone who actually prefers the Slitheen really needs help
Dalek vs. Vampires of Venice: Dalek
The Long Game vs Amy'c Choice: I actually prefer the Long Game, I think most here would disagree with that assesment though.
Father's Day vs. The Hungry Earth: Here's where it gets tricky. Self contained story vs the first part of a longer story. I'm not a huge fan of Father's Day but it's probably better.
From that personal assemsment I'd say I'm probably enjoying Moffat's first season as much as RTDs.
Now this doesn't mean the BBC weren't trying to skew the casting young. Moffat said when he got the original list that there were too many young actors on it for his liking, but I think anyone who imagines Smith was hired because he was young...well, lets be honest I bet there were handsomer men on offer (and he is handsome from certain angles but not from others) It's hard to imagine how anyone could have topped him in the audition process, and to me at least its clear to see why Moffat and co chose him.
Personally I think he has gravitas. Maybe not as much as Eccleston, but probably more than Tennant had in his first season. And I do think we need to compare Moff's first season with RTDs...
Rose vs. The Eleventh Hour: 11th Hour kicks Rose's arse, so much better it's untrue (although it had a longer running time and less to introduce I guess)
The End of the World vs. The Beast Below: Probably about as good as each other.
The Unquiet Dead vs. Victory of the Daleks: Gatiss for the win, zombies beat Daleks.
Slitheen 2 parter vs Angels 2 parter: Anyone who actually prefers the Slitheen really needs help
Dalek vs. Vampires of Venice: Dalek
The Long Game vs Amy'c Choice: I actually prefer the Long Game, I think most here would disagree with that assesment though.
Father's Day vs. The Hungry Earth: Here's where it gets tricky. Self contained story vs the first part of a longer story. I'm not a huge fan of Father's Day but it's probably better.
From that personal assemsment I'd say I'm probably enjoying Moffat's first season as much as RTDs.
Actually it was meant as a back handled compliment as I thought it was a nice bit of self deprecating humour!
Don't worry, I don't think it's possible to post that Frasier clip in any kind of seriousness Starkers. 
Well it isn't exactly a competition he could lose.
Don't worry, I don't think it's possible to post that Frasier clip in any kind of seriousness Starkers.
Well it isn't exactly a competition he could lose.
ha ha
And the award for stupidest comment of the day goes to ME!! I must be getting old 
I'd have to go with Rose here. The Eleventh Hour was typically 'nuwho' with spaceships surrounding the Earth, celebrity cameos and societal critique with camera phones and blasé reactions to the incredible.
At least all that was new in Rose. Plus, Eccleston is the daddy.
End Of The World wins it for me. Could've done without the video game sequence of running through the fans though.
The Unquiet Dead, obvz.
Slitheen FTL
Delek is up there with best episodes in WHO's history, let alone nuwho.
The Long Game was a bit of a misstep for me. It didn't even work as a setup for Bad Wolf other than "Oh, we're on the same space station."
Amy's Choice wasn't perfect by any means though.
Might have to give this one to Father's Day, but it's hard to compare the two when one is a two-parter. I imagine as a whole I'll prefer the Silurian story.
If I may play along.
Rose vs. The Eleventh Hour
The End of the World vs. The Beast Below
The Unquiet Dead vs. Victory of the Daleks
Slitheen vs. Angels
Dalek vs. The Vampire of Venice
The Long Game vs. Amy's Choice
Father's Day vs. The Hungry Earth.
I still say Series 5 is the best yet, and the rest of it would have to be damn poor to change that.
Rose vs. The Eleventh Hour
The End of the World vs. The Beast Below
The Unquiet Dead vs. Victory of the Daleks
Slitheen vs. Angels
Dalek vs. The Vampire of Venice
The Long Game vs. Amy's Choice
Father's Day vs. The Hungry Earth.
I still say Series 5 is the best yet, and the rest of it would have to be damn poor to change that.
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^ Coming to a time-travel show near you soon.... Mr James Corden.
I agree it hasn't been as spectacular a series as I was hoping for either (although I'd still rate it higher than "decent"), but I really think the problem is more with the stories than Smith.
Whether or not he has the proper amount of gravitas yet, his presence and quirky, kooky energy has still been the strongest aspect of every episode so far for me.
Basically, he's just a heck of a lot of fun to watch.
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