It was the Dawn of the Third Age of Mankind
- Thread starter Mal
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^ trust in the Jan; the Jan is good
Thanks. But that's not to say that David cgc isn't right, only that I'm not finding it. There's many JMS interviews and appearances that I don't have digital access to. Obviously an oversight on JMS' part.
Jan
Yeah he should really pull his finger out and upload his brain to the internet for us to sift though. Damned inconvenient really.
2x09 The Coming of Shadows
Look, I appreciate the fact that 100 years of blood isn't something you'll forget over night. But the bottom line, G'kar, is that that's not my problem. This station is open to everyone. Now if the emperor wants to come visit Babylon 5, I think it's great. It raises our visibility and it helps the folks back home think that maybe we're doing some good.
-
We've taken the liberty of writing your speech for you. I've had experts in psycholinguistics working on it for weeks. It's perfect. Fiery, but dignified. Elegant, but strong.
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I take this action without the knowledge or permission of my government. Neither should my aid Na'toth be held accountable for my actions. The responsibility is mine alone. I ask that my remains and my personal property be sent back to Narn to my famility. My copy of the Book of G'quan, I leave to Na'toth in the hope of her eventual enlightenment.
-
Find Mr. Morden; bring him here.
Londo, don't do this.
I have no choice.
Yes you do!
Do I have to go find him myself?
No. No, I'll go. I'll go and I'll bring him back. And some day I'm going to remind you of this conversion. And maybe then you'll understand.
I understand just fine. By this time tomorrow we will be at war with the Narn. May the Great Maker forgive me.
-Londo, don't do this.
I have no choice.
Yes you do!
Do I have to go find him myself?
No. No, I'll go. I'll go and I'll bring him back. And some day I'm going to remind you of this conversion. And maybe then you'll understand.
I understand just fine. By this time tomorrow we will be at war with the Narn. May the Great Maker forgive me.
The time - what is the time? It has begun.
-
Mollari! You! I'm going to get you... a drink. Sit, sit, sit, sit Mollari. It's not every day I have a revelation you know - two of your finest - I've heard something that makes me think there is still hope for us after all. I believed your people capable only of murder and pain, but apparently there is still a spark of decency in your genetic code... I never thought I would be saying this Mollari, but: "To the health of your emperor." And perhaps to your health as well.
-
To the emperor. And thank you.
-
Hello old friend.
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I reached out my hand and he betrayed me. He knew! And he betrayed me!
-
How will this end?
In fire.
-In fire.
Before I came here I received a communication from my government. For a hundred years the Centauri occupied our world. Devastated it. We swore we would never let that happen again. This attack on our largest civilian colony has inflicted terrible damage and loss of life. They have crossed a line we cannot allow them to cross. As a result, 2 hours ago my government officially declared war against the Centauri Republic. Our hope for peace is over. We're now at war. We are now at war.
-
Hello old friend.
GROPOS
Gimme a minute, ok.
It's just, ah, that I don't seem to be quite "at attention." Poor Michael. Maybe Lyta can help?
Anyway, Dodger doesn't get laid, and she gets killed at Akdor.
Leading the troops to Akdor is Steven's dad, General Franklin. Now this is one bad-ass motherfucker! 2x10 Gropos is probably the only episode where Sheridan is obviously deferential (and maybe a little in awe of) a superior officer. Even when the Joint Chiefs comes to visit (in the next episode) Admiral Leyton and Sheridan are cordial and familiar. Heck, Sheridan seems more intimidated by General Franklin than even when President Clark called in Revelations.
It's been a great regret of mine that we didn't see more of General Franklin in the course of B5. I think he would have made the very best example of someone who stayed loyal during the civil war (a better example certainly than Lockley). I think it would have been absolutely awesome if it was General Franklin who was commanding the forces when Sheridan attacked Mars in Endgame. Now that would have packed a real emotional punch!
It was the best thing next to sex.
Here's to you Buffer; here's to all of us.
Does Garibaldi have ED? Just a month or two ago Michael was still in a coma after being shot in the back by his own second. The physical trauma might be enough to jam up the plumbing. Then there's the whole situation with Lise (not to mention the episode with Lianna) and is it any wonder that he has trouble getting it up. When literally jumped by a sex-crazed brunette already in his quarters, Garibaldi first tries to evade with coffee. When that doesn't work, he checks in with Lou. And when he finally runs out of excuses, he feints:
Wait, wait - wait, wait, wait. One second, one second. Maybe I'll slow down here for just one second.
Gimme a minute, ok.
What, did I miss something?
No, no it's just ah, it's just ah
No, no it's just ah, it's just ah
It's just, ah, that I don't seem to be quite "at attention." Poor Michael. Maybe Lyta can help?
Anyway, Dodger doesn't get laid, and she gets killed at Akdor.
Leading the troops to Akdor is Steven's dad, General Franklin. Now this is one bad-ass motherfucker! 2x10 Gropos is probably the only episode where Sheridan is obviously deferential (and maybe a little in awe of) a superior officer. Even when the Joint Chiefs comes to visit (in the next episode) Admiral Leyton and Sheridan are cordial and familiar. Heck, Sheridan seems more intimidated by General Franklin than even when President Clark called in Revelations.
It's been a great regret of mine that we didn't see more of General Franklin in the course of B5. I think he would have made the very best example of someone who stayed loyal during the civil war (a better example certainly than Lockley). I think it would have been absolutely awesome if it was General Franklin who was commanding the forces when Sheridan attacked Mars in Endgame. Now that would have packed a real emotional punch!
It was the best thing next to sex.
Oh, I LOVE this story. Mostly because of Jerry Doyle's behind the scenes antics. See, he'd been pushing for Garibaldi to have a love life. He wanted some "action" for the character. He kept pushing, kept pushing, kept pushing, and finally they gave him a script in which he was going to get the girl. Hey, great, he's all for that. Until they cast Marie Marshall.
Jerry's ex.
And at the time, he was in this relationship you may have heard about, with Andrea Thompson (Talia Winters, they were married for a minute or two). Suddenly, with wifey there AND his ex, he pack-peddled something fierce, and they ended up not consummating their relationship. Oops. lol
(story told by Jerry @ Dragon*Con)
Jerry's ex.
And at the time, he was in this relationship you may have heard about, with Andrea Thompson (Talia Winters, they were married for a minute or two). Suddenly, with wifey there AND his ex, he pack-peddled something fierce, and they ended up not consummating their relationship. Oops. lol
(story told by Jerry @ Dragon*Con)
2x11 All Alone in the Night
Sheridan strikes me as really nervous about General Hague's visit. Nothing else can explain how he could go out for a flight when a member of the Joint Chief's is scheduled to visit in a couple hours.
Even if it is cordial and unofficial, damn, it's still a fucking big deal! Sheridan was sent to B5 under some really unusual circumstances, and with some really unusual orders (spy on the officers under your command). If anything, that makes this visit even more nerve-racking than an ordinary visit by a General (if visits by Generals can ever be ordinary). No wonder he jumps on the opportunity to go out for a quick flight around the neighborhood.
This episodes also marks one of the few times JMS is able to pull off humor:
)
Obviously the meat of the episode is not Ramirez (even if he does die). Delenn goes to see the Grey Council, which has picked a new leader. But fuck if I know who that leader is?!?! Wouldn't that be a pretty big deal? Maybe it's Kalain, but they don't exactly come out and say it.
Lennier really does his best to give Delenn a boost on her way in: "Until later, Satai Delenn." A good touch.
Neroon.
Awesome.
In Babylon Squared, the council selected Delenn as replacement for Dukat. No doubt at the time Delenn was pretty much unopposed, but the Warrior caste couldn't have been happy with the religious caste controlling the Council once again (these appointments seem to be for life).
And then the unthinkable happened. Delenn turned them down. And then - to make matters worse - she became half-human. Fuckin' A
The religious caste must have suffered some serious loss of face and loss of power. In the ensuing power struggle, the Warrior caste might have nominated their own candidate to lead the Grey Council. But of course Kalain wanted to be in charge, and no doubt the religious caste supported him.
So a deal was struck.
The Religious caste was allowed to make Kalain the head of the Grey Counsel, but, the Warrior caste would be given Delenn's seat.
I don't know if Dukat was considered one of the Nine (first among equals, like the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court), or he was a separate leader, and the Nine were a separate body. But either way it would make sense that with the huge embarrassment caused by Delenn's recent misbehaviors, the religious caste could not hope to get both the leadership of the counsel and keep Delenn's seat on the counsel. And so Kalain chose to become head of his people, and the price for that was giving Delenn's seat to the Warrior caste.
That, my friends, is politics.
And I would have preferred the episode had focused on Minbari politics, rather than the boring Sheridan/Talon/Stribe alien-abduction story. Or just re-edit the episode, so it doesn't drag quite so much.
Sheridan brings Ivanova, Garibaldi and Franklin into, shall we say, his conspiracy of light, directed at his own Government.
You have always been here.
Youth is both foolish and vulnerable.
In this episode Delenn continues her seduction of Lennier.
Sheridan strikes me as really nervous about General Hague's visit. Nothing else can explain how he could go out for a flight when a member of the Joint Chief's is scheduled to visit in a couple hours.
Even if it is cordial and unofficial, damn, it's still a fucking big deal! Sheridan was sent to B5 under some really unusual circumstances, and with some really unusual orders (spy on the officers under your command). If anything, that makes this visit even more nerve-racking than an ordinary visit by a General (if visits by Generals can ever be ordinary). No wonder he jumps on the opportunity to go out for a quick flight around the neighborhood.
This episodes also marks one of the few times JMS is able to pull off humor:
You diagnosis, Doctor?
Well, the patient is confused, delusional, unable to separate his natural loyalty to his home team, from the reality that they stink, and only got into the playoffs on a technicality.
What technicality? The Mars home-team hit more home runs than any other team on the books.
Oooonly because Martian gravity is 40% less than Earth normal, alright. The ball travels faster and further, skewing the results. Now once they hit Earth gravity, Helen Keller could bat better than any one of them!
Awesome (especially if you read that in Richard Biggs' voice Well, the patient is confused, delusional, unable to separate his natural loyalty to his home team, from the reality that they stink, and only got into the playoffs on a technicality.
What technicality? The Mars home-team hit more home runs than any other team on the books.
Oooonly because Martian gravity is 40% less than Earth normal, alright. The ball travels faster and further, skewing the results. Now once they hit Earth gravity, Helen Keller could bat better than any one of them!
)Obviously the meat of the episode is not Ramirez (even if he does die). Delenn goes to see the Grey Council, which has picked a new leader. But fuck if I know who that leader is?!?! Wouldn't that be a pretty big deal? Maybe it's Kalain, but they don't exactly come out and say it.
Lennier really does his best to give Delenn a boost on her way in: "Until later, Satai Delenn." A good touch.
Summoned, I take the place that has been prepared for me. I am grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are grey. We stand between the darkness and the light.
But the Council does not want to see her. They have expelled her. And even her position as Ambassador to Babylon 5 is up in the air. At the hearing to determine if she'll keep that job, she discovers who it was who took her place on the Council...
Neroon.
Awesome.
I do not understand. He is warrior caste, from the Star Rider's clan. What is happening here? What are you doing? When Valen called the Nine together, he chose 3 from the Worker caste, 3 from the Religious caste, and 3 from the Warrior caste. My replacement should have been from the religious caste. 4 from the Warrior caste gives them unprecedented power.
Here's my question: Wasn't Dukat from the religious caste? If so, then while The Nine were split evenly (3-3-3), there were still 4 religious caste members in positions of power if you count Dukat.
In Babylon Squared, the council selected Delenn as replacement for Dukat. No doubt at the time Delenn was pretty much unopposed, but the Warrior caste couldn't have been happy with the religious caste controlling the Council once again (these appointments seem to be for life).
And then the unthinkable happened. Delenn turned them down. And then - to make matters worse - she became half-human. Fuckin' A
The religious caste must have suffered some serious loss of face and loss of power. In the ensuing power struggle, the Warrior caste might have nominated their own candidate to lead the Grey Council. But of course Kalain wanted to be in charge, and no doubt the religious caste supported him. So a deal was struck.
The Religious caste was allowed to make Kalain the head of the Grey Counsel, but, the Warrior caste would be given Delenn's seat.
I don't know if Dukat was considered one of the Nine (first among equals, like the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court), or he was a separate leader, and the Nine were a separate body. But either way it would make sense that with the huge embarrassment caused by Delenn's recent misbehaviors, the religious caste could not hope to get both the leadership of the counsel and keep Delenn's seat on the counsel. And so Kalain chose to become head of his people, and the price for that was giving Delenn's seat to the Warrior caste.
That, my friends, is politics.
And I would have preferred the episode had focused on Minbari politics, rather than the boring Sheridan/Talon/Stribe alien-abduction story. Or just re-edit the episode, so it doesn't drag quite so much.
Sheridan brings Ivanova, Garibaldi and Franklin into, shall we say, his conspiracy of light, directed at his own Government.
You have always been here.
never heard of him
but then, the minbari never tell anyone the whole truth 
if that's the case, then it makes total sense for the warrior caste to demand an extra seat on The Nine, if the religious caste is to be trusted with the leadership of the council.
do you know whether or not the leader of the council is one of The Nine, or of there are nine, plus the leader?
Yes and no. He was basically chosen because they thought he'd make a good puppet/figurehead leader. By this point the Council had been without a Chosen One (that's his title btw) since Dukat was killed about 14 years ago, in that time some in the Grey Council had gotten used to not having a leader around and began to wonder why they needed one at all.
Unlike those before him he didn't go on the Valen'tha with the rest of the council and instead "chose" to stay on Minbar in the Chosen One's palace outside the capital. What the others didn't anticipate was how much support he would give Sinclair in becoming Entil'Zha and in getting the White Stars built.
As it happens he was so old that he died around September time and so the council was leaderless again pretty quickly.
That's not the reason that Neroon sited; he claimed it was because the warrior caste were the one expected to fight and die in the Shadow War. What the real reason was remains unclear. What I find more interesting is why the three worker caste and the remaining two religious caste Satai went along with it. I assume appointments of new Satai is by majority vote and if that's the case then at least two of the remaining five would have had to have been in favour of breaking a millennium of tradition set down by Valen himself.
fascinating.
how do you know this stuff?
i don't remember it from the show, crusade, movies, or the three trilogies + shadow within & to dream in the city of sorrows (the 11 books that are considered canonical).
Neroon was full of bluster and said lots things, but the bottom line is, Delenn cost the religious caste a serious loss of prestige, and the warrior caste quickly swooped in to fill the power vacuum.
as for the worker caste - frankly JMS was frustratingly vague about the workings of the minbari government (then again, the grey council wasn't exactly a paragon of transparency). so, for example, in 3x10 Severed Dreams, we don't really get a sense of which members of the Council walked out with Delenn, and which members stayed behind.
It's all in 'City of Sorrows', either directly or implicit. Plus I think JMS has mentioned something alone these lines somewhere.
For example, from page 65: -
And in all that time, thought Sinclair, almost four-
teen Earth years, the Grey Council had ruled Minbar-
and conducted a highly successful war against Earth-
without anyone occupying the office of Chosen One.
That might seem to indicate that the so-called Minbari
leader was only a titular head of government without
power, not unlike kings and queens had become on
Earth by the twentieth century. Except that Dukhat had
clearly been a powerful figure, the unquestioned leader
of Minbar. Jenimer's position was not as clear.
^I don't normally like quoting the text like that as I'm pretty sure it's violating the copyright, but I felt an example needed to be given.teen Earth years, the Grey Council had ruled Minbar-
and conducted a highly successful war against Earth-
without anyone occupying the office of Chosen One.
That might seem to indicate that the so-called Minbari
leader was only a titular head of government without
power, not unlike kings and queens had become on
Earth by the twentieth century. Except that Dukhat had
clearly been a powerful figure, the unquestioned leader
of Minbar. Jenimer's position was not as clear.
Well there are 4 left behind as I recall, so it's fair to assume that everyone but Neroon and his three buddies went with Delenn.
As for the way the government works, again tDitCoS covers some of it, but in a nutshell it's a benign oligarchy: The Chosen One is the titular leader who rules with the Grey Council as his advisor, though if Dukat was typical it's more a case of him guiding them in their decisions and while he has the power to overrule them, tends not to because to much of that rather defeats the purpose of the council. A lot of the day-to-day stuff is handled by a small army of aids and acolytes that I suppose could be roughly equivalent to civil servants. No idea how one gets assigned to these jobs but I imagine it's by some sort of sponsorship of a respected teacher. Delenn and Lennier were both certainly groomed.
Below the nine there's the 27 member strong Council of Caste Elders which has 9 Elders from each from the most dominant clans of the of the three castes and are based in the governmental palace Yedor, not on the Valen'tha. These guys by and large follow the lead from the Grey Council and represent the voice of their respective castes, acting as go-betweens and it would appear to be where at least some Satais serve before becoming Satai. Neroon for example was one of the nine Warrior elders on the Council of Caste Elders before getting Delenn's spot on the Grey Council.
Down from there I imagine it's just the elders of the individual clans within the three castes.
Excerpts, especially ones as short as that, are fine under copyright as "fair use." You'd have to post pages and pages of material before anyone began to even think about caring.
The Council of Caste Elders was also mentioned in "In The Beginning." Lennon had been trying (unsuccessfully) to get them to support his expedition to Z'ha'dum, and it was only after they told him to fuck off that he began directly petitioning the Grey Council.
Speaking of Lennon, there was something I always wondered, and I figure someone here might know. Does anyone know if Lennon's Ranger badge had a different design than the ones we saw in the show? I mean, logically, it would, because the Minbari would've had no idea what a human even looked like, much less why they should be entwined with one, but it was never shown in close-up in ITB, so I don't know if they actually made a new prop, or just used the old one and hoped that as long as it wasn't shown in detail, people could assume it was the pre-Sinclair design.
Follow-up, if it was different, what did it look like?
The Council of Caste Elders was also mentioned in "In The Beginning." Lennon had been trying (unsuccessfully) to get them to support his expedition to Z'ha'dum, and it was only after they told him to fuck off that he began directly petitioning the Grey Council.
Speaking of Lennon, there was something I always wondered, and I figure someone here might know. Does anyone know if Lennon's Ranger badge had a different design than the ones we saw in the show? I mean, logically, it would, because the Minbari would've had no idea what a human even looked like, much less why they should be entwined with one, but it was never shown in close-up in ITB, so I don't know if they actually made a new prop, or just used the old one and hoped that as long as it wasn't shown in detail, people could assume it was the pre-Sinclair design.
Follow-up, if it was different, what did it look like?
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