Issues with Voyager
- Thread starter jimbtnp2
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No more or less than the other captains.
What Tigh said. An isoton is a lot bigger than a megaton. She's throwing missiles hundreds of times, more powerful than our best nuclear weapons at strangers as "warning shots".
It's not a bad thing. Every one does it.
But in comparison ordering some one to kill seems less troublesome than ordering someone to save. As if it's more annoying to be alive than dead. I was more talking about how her crew reacts to these two starkly disparate orders than that Janeway was wrong in giving either of them and if her crew was "allowed" to conscientiously object.
I get your point and have already addressed the two scenarios you're referring to. What I don't understand is the holding of Janeway to different standards than the other Trek captains. I makes you look like a misogynist. If you are then please just admit to it and we can move on. If you're not then I would like to know why Janeway's actions are any worst than say Sisko's in "In the Pale Moonlight" as one example.
You ever seen one of those Law Drama's where the Christian Scientists are having medical science forced down her throat? Obviously they're mad that their belief in a false god is worth dying for. Then again back in antiquity I saw an episode of LA Law where some one was using Nazi research to save lives. Heavy stuff for a 9 year old to get a handle on, but I accepted it was complicated...
Archer and Phlox had a similar confuddle in Dear Doctor, where Archer almost ordered the Doctor to fix "irrepareable" genetic degradation sliding a species towards extinction.
Sisko knew he did the wrong thing. Janeway? Well, Night, then Flesh and Blood, maybe the Omega Directive. The rest of th time she seemed above having a conscience.
(I just put Nothing Human on to refresh my opinion. Took me half an hour to find the damn tape.)
You should see my scathing monologues on Archer. I'm an equal opportunity realist.
Archer and Phlox had a similar confuddle in Dear Doctor, where Archer almost ordered the Doctor to fix "irrepareable" genetic degradation sliding a species towards extinction.
Sisko knew he did the wrong thing. Janeway? Well, Night, then Flesh and Blood, maybe the Omega Directive. The rest of th time she seemed above having a conscience.
(I just put Nothing Human on to refresh my opinion. Took me half an hour to find the damn tape.)
You should see my scathing monologues on Archer. I'm an equal opportunity realist.
Hmmm...criticizing Janeway by comparing her to Sisko in ITPM? ITPM is heavy-handed, obvious, and dull. Not a great choice for comparison...not DS9's finest hour by a long shot. I didn't find ITPM to be edgy or exciting at all--leaders of men in the real world have been doing that kind of stuff and making those kinds of decisions since man first organized into societies. I didn't find that episode entertaining or thought-provoking in the least.
For the online voting for the Captain's Log I really took to heart what the niners round here liked--DS9 is my least favorite series (I don't watch it much at all). I voted for ITPM and Far Beyond the Stars based on all the praise those 2 eps get...and I felt totally cheated by both.
Give me Janeway over Sisko any day of the week--except for the day of the week that she murdered Tuvix and used a hologram as a dildo, but hey, every captain has an ep or two that fans would like to bury...
For the online voting for the Captain's Log I really took to heart what the niners round here liked--DS9 is my least favorite series (I don't watch it much at all). I voted for ITPM and Far Beyond the Stars based on all the praise those 2 eps get...and I felt totally cheated by both.
Give me Janeway over Sisko any day of the week--except for the day of the week that she murdered Tuvix and used a hologram as a dildo, but hey, every captain has an ep or two that fans would like to bury...
Been thinking after watching the episode again
Jetrel. War criminal given access to the knowledge that transporter technology exists and access tot eh guts of Voyagers transporters to reverse his weapon, decimator of millions, as easily as create an entirely new weapon if not alter the balance of power completely with simply the mass production of transporters which will revolutionize every aspect of life from commerce to war, but I digress... Neelix accepted (pretend) medical aid from the guy who made the weapon that murdered his sister and every one else living on the planet she was on... it's not too different from asking why nazi Rocket Scientists were allowed to be the prime movers in the American Space program after they created the devices to bomb the shit out of London and other targets.
Resolutions. Janeway accepted a cure for the medical science which took neelixs Lungs and dominioed Kes into volunteering one of her lungs to Neelix. The Doctor got his leg over with Doctor denara pel and goodness knows how many innocent people she contributed to the harvest of?
Janeways reason for doing what she did was that she thought Joe Carey would be be a shit chief engineer. Which reminds me of that Enterprise Episode where Archer grows a clone of trip, raises him from infancy just to kill him and harvest body parts to fixt the real Trip who also like Tuvix said "Please don't kill me."
And what about Ensign tabor? what exactly did "resign his comission" mean? Did it mean he wanted off the boat completely or just that he wanted to hang out in his quarters till they got home, which as a federation citizen it would still be his right to try and argue he's allowed to do... "Federation responsibility?" If Janeway hadn't bollocks the extraction of those Ferengi? Where exactly was she going to keep them for the next 70 years? But Chuckles told Tabor to stop being ridiculous and forget about the slight of benefiting from the murder of his friends and family just as glibly was Janeway ORDERED B'Elanna what emotions she was an was not allowed to feel.
It's not that Janeway made the wrong choice. it;s that there was no right chioce and Janeway pretended that she had made the right choice or worse yet, she thought that she was wright and it was impossible for it to be otherwise. Although i am reminded of when Bev and Picard where brain bonded in Attached and she said which way should we go? Then was amazed at how well Picard faked the positive resolution of his choices.
I do recall that Janeway decided that Quinn was allowed to chose to commit suicide if he felt so, and he had to be a billion times more useful than b'Elanna in getting home if she could have just ordered/forced him to delay his suicide for a couple months enough to meet an ally of his or build a better star drive or point out a short cut.
Hows that for a touch inconstant?
that's the second time she's really dicked over Joe, if you don't count B'Elanna's original promotion since his dethroned rump was totally collateral, but I'm almost inspired enough to think they had a fling and a disastrous break up that she's willing to to go to such extents to deny this bloke a good job and not being freejacked from a pointless death.
Jetrel. War criminal given access to the knowledge that transporter technology exists and access tot eh guts of Voyagers transporters to reverse his weapon, decimator of millions, as easily as create an entirely new weapon if not alter the balance of power completely with simply the mass production of transporters which will revolutionize every aspect of life from commerce to war, but I digress... Neelix accepted (pretend) medical aid from the guy who made the weapon that murdered his sister and every one else living on the planet she was on... it's not too different from asking why nazi Rocket Scientists were allowed to be the prime movers in the American Space program after they created the devices to bomb the shit out of London and other targets.
Resolutions. Janeway accepted a cure for the medical science which took neelixs Lungs and dominioed Kes into volunteering one of her lungs to Neelix. The Doctor got his leg over with Doctor denara pel and goodness knows how many innocent people she contributed to the harvest of?
Janeways reason for doing what she did was that she thought Joe Carey would be be a shit chief engineer. Which reminds me of that Enterprise Episode where Archer grows a clone of trip, raises him from infancy just to kill him and harvest body parts to fixt the real Trip who also like Tuvix said "Please don't kill me."
And what about Ensign tabor? what exactly did "resign his comission" mean? Did it mean he wanted off the boat completely or just that he wanted to hang out in his quarters till they got home, which as a federation citizen it would still be his right to try and argue he's allowed to do... "Federation responsibility?" If Janeway hadn't bollocks the extraction of those Ferengi? Where exactly was she going to keep them for the next 70 years? But Chuckles told Tabor to stop being ridiculous and forget about the slight of benefiting from the murder of his friends and family just as glibly was Janeway ORDERED B'Elanna what emotions she was an was not allowed to feel.
It's not that Janeway made the wrong choice. it;s that there was no right chioce and Janeway pretended that she had made the right choice or worse yet, she thought that she was wright and it was impossible for it to be otherwise. Although i am reminded of when Bev and Picard where brain bonded in Attached and she said which way should we go? Then was amazed at how well Picard faked the positive resolution of his choices.
I do recall that Janeway decided that Quinn was allowed to chose to commit suicide if he felt so, and he had to be a billion times more useful than b'Elanna in getting home if she could have just ordered/forced him to delay his suicide for a couple months enough to meet an ally of his or build a better star drive or point out a short cut.
Hows that for a touch inconstant?
that's the second time she's really dicked over Joe, if you don't count B'Elanna's original promotion since his dethroned rump was totally collateral, but I'm almost inspired enough to think they had a fling and a disastrous break up that she's willing to to go to such extents to deny this bloke a good job and not being freejacked from a pointless death.
That's what I've been trying to say all along. These issues aren't simplistic at all which imo is what makes them interesting.
Okay now you lost me again. Once a captain makes a decision there has to be enough confidence to carry it through otherwise those under them will not buy into it. As Adama says in nuBSG: "You make a decision then you live with the consequences every day and don't look back." (that's a paraphrase)
Sorry but I wasn't able to follow the rest...
I do the weirdest things to our language. Sorry.
I just had another thought. If B'Elanna was so upset about being alive, she really could have done something about it. Opened her veins and bled out. She didn't. She got upset and pouted. That's not how you win an argument with a psychopath B'Elanna. You have to fight psychopathy with psychopathy.
Of course how many times might B'Elanna have tried to kill herself before she got sick of Janeway saving her at the last second on the precipice of the after life or resurrecting the former Maquis from well into the final negotiations with a necro-realtor? How far, how many times would B'Elanna pursue her right to die and live on her own terms that Janeway wouldn't eventually have to alter her memories at some point to make it so that the Klingon halfbreed became unaware that the argument and tug of war across the threshold of heavens door never took place because of RSI? It's what Janeway did to the Doctor. Hell, Picard did that to his entire crew, of course technically the crew did it to themselves in concert. B'Elanna left in her own right mind would eventually have to accept that she couldn't trust her final rest to be final unless she killed the Captain first... Or everyone... and blew up the ship too, unless she could have resigned her commission, left for parts unknown and then killed herself only to be concerned that Janeway may have created a clone or a hologram who thinks and feels and dreams just she does he is living in a life of captivity, to replace her position in the crew or that Janeway hadn't followed her to recover her corpse and start up their argument all over again. (Watch some Stargate. MacGyver got killed dozens and dozens of times while in captivity once because the torture was a bit to intense.)
Because after all, Janeway said that Losing her chief engineer was "unacceptable". How far will Janeway go to make sure the unacceptable is completely impossible? She said that she was worried about losing B'Elanna's skill-set and never made a positive comment about losing her as a person or a friend, a beloved daughter like figure even?
Unacceptable is a pretty strong word from someone as Ahab as Janeway.
I mean Archer killed the clone because he needed the moral strength of his best friend (more proof that he's possibly retarded.) and Neelix made his own choice about his own fate by accepting a medical procedure created as a by product of mass-slaughter, but Janeway wouldn't allow her crewman to make a moral choice to refuse medical help on moral grounds, when later in The Void Janeway cast off scientific data and military aid because one of her allies, her strongest ally had resorted to piracy while flying under her flag... If B'Elanna wasn't chief engineer, if she was a lowly crewman or Neelix she would have considered allowing to let that insignificant and unmiportant person die if they wanted to, since they were not irreplaceable crew to fulfilling her mission, which tracks right back to the pilot when she asks what right does Janeway have to make decisions for her?
And for all this talk of forcing B'Elanna to live, really in Barge of the Dead, Janeway gave permission for B'Elanna, who was obviously so mental she thought that she could commune with her dead mother, especially since the last time Kathy died and met her dead father, it was a vampire trying to eat her soul, to kill herself over and over again doing her best Juliet Roberts impersonation from flatliners, despite the ACCEPTABLE risks that the Doctor might not be able to bring her back.
Seven bought Neelix back raising a whole bunch of existential questions in the hedgehog, but it's not like neelix had a DNR order attached to his jacket. After that adventure however, maybe he does now.
And then at the very end, Janeway passed the Buck. I don't for a second believe that the Doctor is selfaware, so why the frack Janeway left the choice about whether to erase the Cardassian vivisector in the hands of a tinman sawjockey who's tipping point to destroy the program and erase the medical knowledge of the Cardassian Doctor was based on not if the Cardassian in question was a monster but that his interpersonal subroutines were designed by Harry Kim, either based on Harry's own ethical senses or his bigoted impressions of how Cardassians act, that Moset was to concerned with the time table and, before Kes gave him a cold, well extended the duration of his cold, the Doctor was just a tart a bastard to his patients as Moset . Moset was only erased because Harry is a dick and no other reason, not a lick of the vitriol from Tabor and B'Elanna baying for his execution and erasure for history was included in his decision making process.
How sad.
I just had another thought. If B'Elanna was so upset about being alive, she really could have done something about it. Opened her veins and bled out. She didn't. She got upset and pouted. That's not how you win an argument with a psychopath B'Elanna. You have to fight psychopathy with psychopathy.
Of course how many times might B'Elanna have tried to kill herself before she got sick of Janeway saving her at the last second on the precipice of the after life or resurrecting the former Maquis from well into the final negotiations with a necro-realtor? How far, how many times would B'Elanna pursue her right to die and live on her own terms that Janeway wouldn't eventually have to alter her memories at some point to make it so that the Klingon halfbreed became unaware that the argument and tug of war across the threshold of heavens door never took place because of RSI? It's what Janeway did to the Doctor. Hell, Picard did that to his entire crew, of course technically the crew did it to themselves in concert. B'Elanna left in her own right mind would eventually have to accept that she couldn't trust her final rest to be final unless she killed the Captain first... Or everyone... and blew up the ship too, unless she could have resigned her commission, left for parts unknown and then killed herself only to be concerned that Janeway may have created a clone or a hologram who thinks and feels and dreams just she does he is living in a life of captivity, to replace her position in the crew or that Janeway hadn't followed her to recover her corpse and start up their argument all over again. (Watch some Stargate. MacGyver got killed dozens and dozens of times while in captivity once because the torture was a bit to intense.)
Because after all, Janeway said that Losing her chief engineer was "unacceptable". How far will Janeway go to make sure the unacceptable is completely impossible? She said that she was worried about losing B'Elanna's skill-set and never made a positive comment about losing her as a person or a friend, a beloved daughter like figure even?
Unacceptable is a pretty strong word from someone as Ahab as Janeway.
I mean Archer killed the clone because he needed the moral strength of his best friend (more proof that he's possibly retarded.) and Neelix made his own choice about his own fate by accepting a medical procedure created as a by product of mass-slaughter, but Janeway wouldn't allow her crewman to make a moral choice to refuse medical help on moral grounds, when later in The Void Janeway cast off scientific data and military aid because one of her allies, her strongest ally had resorted to piracy while flying under her flag... If B'Elanna wasn't chief engineer, if she was a lowly crewman or Neelix she would have considered allowing to let that insignificant and unmiportant person die if they wanted to, since they were not irreplaceable crew to fulfilling her mission, which tracks right back to the pilot when she asks what right does Janeway have to make decisions for her?
And for all this talk of forcing B'Elanna to live, really in Barge of the Dead, Janeway gave permission for B'Elanna, who was obviously so mental she thought that she could commune with her dead mother, especially since the last time Kathy died and met her dead father, it was a vampire trying to eat her soul, to kill herself over and over again doing her best Juliet Roberts impersonation from flatliners, despite the ACCEPTABLE risks that the Doctor might not be able to bring her back.
Seven bought Neelix back raising a whole bunch of existential questions in the hedgehog, but it's not like neelix had a DNR order attached to his jacket. After that adventure however, maybe he does now.
And then at the very end, Janeway passed the Buck. I don't for a second believe that the Doctor is selfaware, so why the frack Janeway left the choice about whether to erase the Cardassian vivisector in the hands of a tinman sawjockey who's tipping point to destroy the program and erase the medical knowledge of the Cardassian Doctor was based on not if the Cardassian in question was a monster but that his interpersonal subroutines were designed by Harry Kim, either based on Harry's own ethical senses or his bigoted impressions of how Cardassians act, that Moset was to concerned with the time table and, before Kes gave him a cold, well extended the duration of his cold, the Doctor was just a tart a bastard to his patients as Moset . Moset was only erased because Harry is a dick and no other reason, not a lick of the vitriol from Tabor and B'Elanna baying for his execution and erasure for history was included in his decision making process.
How sad.
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wwwhhhhooooaaaa....
Hold on a minute here my fearless leader!
You are telling me that Janeway fired the phasers and photons as often as Picard? Me thinks you've had too much coffee!
Even Sisko didn't fire his weapons as often as Janeway until there was WAR!
Why didn't they just store Tulix's personality in the holomatrix, as they did with that Vidian doctor The Doctor wined and dined?
Sisko didn't do a lot of shooting. Guess that's 'cause he didn't go looking for trouble the way the rest of 'em did.
I think the problem is with philosophy and not so much the writers...what is Janeways philosophy? in one hand there is the prime directive which to me reeks of deontology (thou shalt not interfere no matter what the consequence) but then often she chooses to save her friends in the name of utilitarianism (if I save my friend B'Elanna her skills in engineering will help all of us) The problem is that no philosophy is right. You can't deal in absolutes without having conflicts...The most ethical species would be the Borg because they never stray from thier morality.
But he did fire biogenic weapons at a civilian population, and he destroyed a dominion battle fleet with a few inspirational words... Hundreds of thousands of Jem'ha'dar, Vorta and maybe a couple Changelings.
Shelby used the Enterprises phaser batteries more often than Picard, just because she had the sense to say "continuous fire" to Data... But it's purely that the SFX cost less by the time of Voyager that it was harder to crack the budget by just showing a little entertainment.
Shelby used the Enterprises phaser batteries more often than Picard, just because she had the sense to say "continuous fire" to Data... But it's purely that the SFX cost less by the time of Voyager that it was harder to crack the budget by just showing a little entertainment.
Wow - that would have been a way out of it at least for a while. Unfortunately, the longer Denara Pel remained as a hologram the more likely her memories would start to degrade. It would have been an option worth exploring though.
As far as I'm concerened, none of the Star Trek captains are better than the other. Each had their strengths and weaknesses - Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway and Archer.
But Janeway receives the most criticism. In fact, Trek fans love bashing her character. But she is a woman and I understand. A female has no business being the lead in a science fiction show that features a cast portraying military personnel. At least I suspect that is how many of the fans feel.
I'm going to be insulting here. Chances are I'll be banned from this forum after I say this. The above statement, in my opinion, is the biggest piece of bullshit I have ever read about Janeway, hands down. And I have read a great deal of bullshit.
The only philosophy I have ever spotted by any of the Trek captains was their loyalty to Starfleet, the Federation and the so-called perfection of humanity. That's it. And I've noticed that they would resort to nearly anything to maintain this view.
But Janeway receives the most criticism. In fact, Trek fans love bashing her character. But she is a woman and I understand. A female has no business being the lead in a science fiction show that features a cast portraying military personnel. At least I suspect that is how many of the fans feel.
I'm going to be insulting here. Chances are I'll be banned from this forum after I say this. The above statement, in my opinion, is the biggest piece of bullshit I have ever read about Janeway, hands down. And I have read a great deal of bullshit.
The only philosophy I have ever spotted by any of the Trek captains was their loyalty to Starfleet, the Federation and the so-called perfection of humanity. That's it. And I've noticed that they would resort to nearly anything to maintain this view.
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I wasn't bashing her...I'm just curious if she has a philsophy and what it is because she always contradicts herself...I think its cool that they touch on moral and ethical dilemmas even if their reactions are schizophrenic.
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Enough with the woo is woman BS already please - Janeway, Kim, Nelix, Chakotay - were all bad characters - mostly from the way they were written (Janeway and Neelix and acting Beltran and Wang)
Voyager was just weak all the way around and was the furtherest departure of quality from TOS, in every aspect except Fx
Nothing to do with a female cap - its B & B and Jeri Taylor
And once you're numb to all those truths you get to sit back and enjoy the show. 
I think that it all comes down to two words: Bad writing!
As I see it, Voyager had the best and most interesting characters of all the Star trek series. It also had excellent actors to portray those characters and a great premise for the series itself. I mean, Voyager was really about "to go where no one has gone before", to meet interesting new species and scenarios and how to cope with a situation so different from what other Trek crew had done.
Unfortunately the showwas plagued by writers and producers who started to lose their inspiration very early and the writing suffered from that. It became erratic. Sometimes Voyager was brilliant, sometimes it wasn't.
When inspiration faded (which it seemingly did more and more in the later seasons) it was like "let us give the viewers what we think they would like, like a sexy woman, more Borg and more TNG characters and from season 6 and onwards it was "let's get out of here as soon as possible". Which they did after pointing the finger of the fans with episodes like "Fury" and the C/7 thing which many fans disliked.
Then they tried to solve the problem with abandoning all the good things they had done before Voyager by going back to where it all started, which was a TOS prequel and they failed miserably with that one too.
As for the characters, I get the feelíng that they didn't know what to do with them. Janeway's erratic behavior is a result of erratic writing, lack of inspiration and lack of direction for the character (should she be a Kirk or a Picard?). The only character who showed some consistence was Tuvok and he was also shoved aside in the later seasons.
They should have brought in fresh writers with ideas for Voyager when it started, not the old gang who had been involved since the early days of TNG and obviously had lost inspiration.
Voyager was never really bad (except for one episode in season 6) but there were too many flaws, too many mistakes and too much of uneven, erratic writing to make it "the perfect show".
As I see it, Voyager had the best and most interesting characters of all the Star trek series. It also had excellent actors to portray those characters and a great premise for the series itself. I mean, Voyager was really about "to go where no one has gone before", to meet interesting new species and scenarios and how to cope with a situation so different from what other Trek crew had done.
Unfortunately the showwas plagued by writers and producers who started to lose their inspiration very early and the writing suffered from that. It became erratic. Sometimes Voyager was brilliant, sometimes it wasn't.
When inspiration faded (which it seemingly did more and more in the later seasons) it was like "let us give the viewers what we think they would like, like a sexy woman, more Borg and more TNG characters and from season 6 and onwards it was "let's get out of here as soon as possible". Which they did after pointing the finger of the fans with episodes like "Fury" and the C/7 thing which many fans disliked.
Then they tried to solve the problem with abandoning all the good things they had done before Voyager by going back to where it all started, which was a TOS prequel and they failed miserably with that one too.
As for the characters, I get the feelíng that they didn't know what to do with them. Janeway's erratic behavior is a result of erratic writing, lack of inspiration and lack of direction for the character (should she be a Kirk or a Picard?). The only character who showed some consistence was Tuvok and he was also shoved aside in the later seasons.
They should have brought in fresh writers with ideas for Voyager when it started, not the old gang who had been involved since the early days of TNG and obviously had lost inspiration.
Voyager was never really bad (except for one episode in season 6) but there were too many flaws, too many mistakes and too much of uneven, erratic writing to make it "the perfect show".
