Issues with the Films

[Bry_Sinclair]

I have done and probably will always love Trek (I liked quite a bit of Voyager and Enterprise did have a few really good episodes), but like all things in life there are little annoyances I have regarding the films. Not enough to make me not like them (with maybe one exception), but enough to irk me when I do.

So I thought I'd have a little rant here and see if anyone agreed with me. These are all my humble opinions, so I apologise if they offend anyone else's sensibilities.

ST:TMP - Aside from the fact that nothing seems to happen in this film, they then spend ages lighting the Enterprise and leaving dry-dock. Decker and Ilia are introduced, two characters I liked and would loved to have seen more of, and are then essentially killed off.

ST2:TWOK - Spock giving up command. If Starfleet didn't think him capable of commanding a ship why promote him to Captain?

ST3:TSFS - Kirsty Alley didn't return as Saavik (and the half-Romulan idea apparantly dropped). The Excelsior's bridge (awful set, just awful). The death of David.

ST4:TVH - Nothing really, though maybe a little OTT on the humour at times.

ST5:TFF - They made it. Nuff said.

ST6:TUC - All the crew apparantly retiring at the same time. Kirk making out with Martia (really, who needs to see that!). The Enterprise-A being decommissioned. It's only a little battle damaged, nothing a month in dry-dock wouldn't put right. Valeris' uniform and rank being completely wrong.

ST:G - Making Harriman out to look incapable without Kirk there to save the day. Picard's Nexus fantasy (it just seems really out of place in the midst of the action). The fact Picard apparantly can't save the day without Kirk.

ST:FC - They killed Hawk!

ST:I - Starfleet seems to lose their principles in this one. Also this is suppose to be during the war, so why is Starfleet expending resources on a cultural observation team? And the Enterprise-E going on an archaeological dig? The fact none of the Ba'ku stop Artim as he goes back to look for his pet, and carry him out to safety. Riker losing the beard.

ST:N - B-4 retaining Data's memories after he dies! Worf and Wesley back in uniform without explanation. Academy photo of Picard showing him in an en-listed uniform and bald (he had hair aboard the Stargazer). Data lost his emotion chip. The pointless discussions on how if Picard had lived Shinzon's life, etc. Yes they share DNA, but we are defined as much by how we develop than what's in our genone (surely Picard would know that!).

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

I won't comment on the ones I haven't seen in a long time, so that's why I'm skipping films. And whatever I say, I guarantee there are plenty of folks around here that have infinitely more knowledge of the franchise and will help you better than myself. I just hate to see a pretty thread go unnoticed.

Or... something.

ST2:TWOK - Spock giving up command. If Starfleet didn't think him capable of commanding a ship why promote him to Captain?

For the sake of the moviegoers' sense of dramatic involvement, I suppose. People walking into that theater almost thirty years ago had a frame of mind that James Kirk was the captain of the starship Enterprise, and so they get a sense of fulfillment out of seeing it happen again. Kind of like the ending to the new film.

I don't know, this is a movie I haven't seen in several months, and when I did I was sick as a dog, so...

ST3:TSFS - Kirsty Alley didn't return as Saavik (and the half-Romulan idea apparantly dropped). The Excelsior's bridge (awful set, just awful). The death of David.

I liked both actresses as Saavik, although somehow I was more jarred about the switch than usual. I think it's because these are movies. Somehow I'm always more off-put when an actor or actress is replaced in back-to-back movies than anything other than a regular cast member on a show's replacement. For example, I barely seem to be noticing Ziyal's two changes in Deep Space Nine right now.

I don't really remember the Excelsior's bridge set, so I guess it didn't stick out as particularly bad. And David's death was a very strong dramatic part of the film. I just wish Kirk would have said more about it during the film.

ST4:TVH - Nothing really, though maybe a little OTT on the humour at times.

Maybe a little. It worked though. The one thing that hurts my head about this one is that terribly wacky visual effects sequence as Kirk and the crew travel back in time. What the hell was going on there? I was waiting for those Big Giant Heads (TM) to grab the Bird-of-Prey and rip her apart while cackling fiendishly, then set fire to the entire galaxy.

ST5:TFF - They made it. Nuff said.

Ha.

ST6:TUC - All the crew apparantly retiring at the same time. Kirk making out with Martia (really, who needs to see that!). The Enterprise-A being decommissioned. It's only a little battle damaged, nothing a month in dry-dock wouldn't put right. Valeris' uniform and rank being completely wrong.

The whole crew retiring at once didn't really bother me. They're so close-knit that it isn't out of the realm of possibility that they'd all decide to get out around the same point.

Kirk making out with Martia is totally cool with me, because Bones' 'what is it with you?' is one of the funniest parts of the film in my humble opinion.

The Enterprise decommission does seem a little silly, but mainly to me because we've only just recently gotten to know her. And the poor girl had to sit through Star Trek V for half that time. Valeris' uniform and rank didn't even get a notice from me, so that tells you what kind of fan I am, I guess.

ST:G - Making Harriman out to look incapable without Kirk there to save the day. Picard's Nexus fantasy (it just seems really out of place in the midst of the action). The fact Picard apparantly can't save the day without Kirk.

Harriman does come off as a bit weak because of that, but I think he was just as effected as everyone else with the whole hero worship thing and saw a tough, tough situation and James Tiberius Kirk sitting on his bridge and could barely help himself.

Picard's Nexus fantasy dragged, it was badly-placed within the film's overall structure and it bothered me on various other levels.

As for the last part, Picard didn't have a weapon and Soren clearly wasn't going to fall for the old diplomacy tactic. It's not like the captain went into the Nexus seeking Kirk; he wound up there and saw an opportunity.

ST:FC - They killed Hawk!

As much as I love First Contact, I feel that to drive home the audience's belief in the Borg -- especially the casuals -- someone had to die. Since they weren't going to grant my wish and off Troi (kidding, I just see so many potshots and enjoy a glass here and there) it makes sense that Hawk be the one. Typical as it may be.

 

[Christopher]

ST:TMP - Aside from the fact that nothing seems to happen in this film, they then spend ages lighting the Enterprise and leaving dry-dock.

Well, to fans back in 1979, seeing their beloved starship up on the big screen in unprecedented detail for the first time was a major event, worth spending a lot of time on. Perhaps its effect is dulled these days when it's mostly seen on TV screens, and when the sight of that version of the Enterprise is more familiar.

Decker and Ilia are introduced, two characters I liked and would loved to have seen more of, and are then essentially killed off.

A consequence of TMP being developed out of the abortive Phase II TV revival, in which Decker and Ilia were intended to be regular characters.

But take heart in the fact that the Decker and Ilia characters were used again -- they were just renamed William Riker and Deanna Troi.

ST2:TWOK - Spock giving up command. If Starfleet didn't think him capable of commanding a ship why promote him to Captain?

Starfleet didn't remove Spock from command. It was Spock's own choice to cede command to Kirk for the duration of the mission. "As a teacher on a training mission, I am content to command the Enterprise. If we are to go on actual duty, it is clear that the senior officer on board must assume command." Spock was only interested in commanding the ship as a training vessel. We've known for a long time that command for its own sake had no appeal to him; he preferred to be a teacher. And he preferred to serve under Kirk's command over running the show himself.

ST6:TUC - ...Kirk making out with Martia (really, who needs to see that!).

What bothered me was Kirk's disgusted, implicitly homophobic reaction on seeing Martia in a male form.

ST:G - Making Harriman out to look incapable without Kirk there to save the day.

I think Harriman came off fine. He was coming up with good ideas one after the other -- it's just that his crew wasn't able to carry them out because the ship was inadequately equipped. And most importantly, he had the good judgment to ask for help rather than letting his ego prevent it. It's no different from Kirk relying on Spock to come up with solutions. A captain's job isn't to do everything himself, it's to make the most of the personnel and resources at his disposal. And since Harriman had Kirk onboard, it showed good command judgment to call on his experience.

ST:I - Starfleet seems to lose their principles in this one. Also this is suppose to be during the war, so why is Starfleet expending resources on a cultural observation team?

I always saw the compromise of Starfleet's principles here being a parallel of what was going on in DS9, where that was a recurring arc. How much will a society bend its principles out of fear or the desperation to survive? In this case, as I saw it, the potential gain of the "fountain of youth" technology was seen by Dougherty and Starfleet as a major strategic asset -- perhaps a source of new healing technology (which was actually how it was originally conceived in the early drafts), or maybe just as something of great value that everyone would want, giving Starfleet leverage if they controlled it. Either of which can be quite valuable in wartime.

ST:N - ...The pointless discussions on how if Picard had lived Shinzon's life, etc. Yes they share DNA, but we are defined as much by how we develop than what's in our genone (surely Picard would know that!).

Well, exploring those questions was the whole point of those discussions. The script explored both sides of the nature-vs.-nurture question through the Picard-Shinzon discussions, and that was one of the strongest parts of the film, imbuing it with the kind of philosophical introspection that should always be part of Star Trek but that's been missing or downplayed in too many of the films.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

For the sake of the moviegoers' sense of dramatic involvement, I suppose. People walking into that theater almost thirty years ago had a frame of mind that James Kirk was the captain of the starship Enterprise, and so they get a sense of fulfillment out of seeing it happen again. Kind of like the ending to the new film.

Very true. Kirk was always the leader and he did have to take command to face off against Khan once again. I just think Spock offered up his command a little too quickly.

I liked both actresses as Saavik, although somehow I was more jarred about the switch than usual. I think it's because these are movies. Somehow I'm always more off-put when an actor or actress is replaced in back-to-back movies than anything other than a regular cast member on a show's replacement. For example, I barely seem to be noticing Ziyal's two changes in Deep Space Nine right now.

The jarring change put me off Robin Curtis' Saavik. As for Ziyal, I'm pretty sure there were at least three actresses (if not four) in the role.

And David's death was a very strong dramatic part of the film. I just wish Kirk would have said more about it during the film.

I know that why they did it, I just kinda liked the character. Would have liked to have seen more of him. Another point, did anyone else pick up a hint of something more between Saavik and David, or is it just me?

The one thing that hurts my head about this one is that terribly wacky visual effects sequence as Kirk and the crew travel back in time. What the hell was going on there? I was waiting for those Big Giant Heads (TM) to grab the Bird-of-Prey and rip her apart while cackling fiendishly, then set fire to the entire galaxy.

Oh yeah! Totally forgot about that bit. What was going on there?

The whole crew retiring at once didn't really bother me. They're so close-knit that it isn't out of the realm of possibility that they'd all decide to get out around the same point.

Chekov and Uhura are far younger than the others, Sulu stayed in service onboard the Excelsior. I would have liked to have seen the other two bridge crew get their own ships.

Kirk making out with Martia is totally cool with me, because Bones' 'what is it with you?' is one of the funniest parts of the film in my humble opinion.

Totally agree, best line in the film. Such a good Bones moment.

Since they weren't going to grant my wish and off Troi (kidding, I just see so many potshots and enjoy a glass here and there) it makes sense that Hawk be the one. Typical as it may be.

Loved Troi in FC.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Well, to fans back in 1979, seeing their beloved starship up on the big screen in unprecedented detail for the first time was a major event, worth spending a lot of time on. Perhaps its effect is dulled these days when it's mostly seen on TV screens, and when the sight of that version of the Enterprise is more familiar.

True. Though I was born the same year TWOK was released, so that passed me by. But given the adventure and action of TOS the first film just didn't capture it I find.

A consequence of TMP being developed out of the abortive Phase II TV revival, in which Decker and Ilia were intended to be regular characters.

But take heart in the fact that the Decker and Ilia characters were used again -- they were just renamed William Riker and Deanna Troi.

I always wonder what Trek would be like now if Phase II had gone ahead. Just glad they gave Troi hair! The look worked for Persis Khambatta, not sure Ms Sirtis could pull it off though.

Starfleet didn't remove Spock from command. It was Spock's own choice to cede command to Kirk for the duration of the mission. "As a teacher on a training mission, I am content to command the Enterprise. If we are to go on actual duty, it is clear that the senior officer on board must assume command." Spock was only interested in commanding the ship as a training vessel. We've known for a long time that command for its own sake had no appeal to him; he preferred to be a teacher. And he preferred to serve under Kirk's command over running the show himself.

Spock would know what his strengths and weaknesses are, but he seemed to had it over to Kirk too quickly. Seeing as how Kirk was out of touch after 2 years on Earth prior to TMP, all the time between then and TWOK would probably make his less effective as a ship's CO.

What bothered me was Kirk's disgusted, implicitly homophobic reaction on seeing Martia in a male form.

Very true. He may think that "everyone's human", but must draw the line at intimacy in the same gender.

I think Harriman came off fine. He was coming up with good ideas one after the other -- it's just that his crew wasn't able to carry them out because the ship was inadequately equipped. And most importantly, he had the good judgment to ask for help rather than letting his ego prevent it. It's no different from Kirk relying on Spock to come up with solutions. A captain's job isn't to do everything himself, it's to make the most of the personnel and resources at his disposal. And since Harriman had Kirk onboard, it showed good command judgment to call on his experience.

A good way of putting it Christopher. But I find the way Kirk just strolls around the bridge looking at displays to be so smug, it just irks me.

I always saw the compromise of Starfleet's principles here being a parallel of what was going on in DS9, where that was a recurring arc. How much will a society bend its principles out of fear or the desperation to survive? In this case, as I saw it, the potential gain of the "fountain of youth" technology was seen by Dougherty and Starfleet as a major strategic asset -- perhaps a source of new healing technology (which was actually how it was originally conceived in the early drafts), or maybe just as something of great value that everyone would want, giving Starfleet leverage if they controlled it. Either of which can be quite valuable in wartime.

Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges (to quote the DS9 episode of the same name)

Well, exploring those questions was the whole point of those discussions. The script explored both sides of the nature-vs.-nurture question through the Picard-Shinzon discussions, and that was one of the strongest parts of the film, imbuing it with the kind of philosophical introspection that should always be part of Star Trek but that's been missing or downplayed in too many of the films.

I agree it was an important element of the film, but the philosopher in Picard should really have understood that they were different and always would be because of the hands dealt to them in their lives. To me it seemed to come as a shock to him when Data made the comparison between himself and B-4 and applied it to Picard and Shinzon--that's what I always think when I watch Nemesis.

-Bry

 

[Mr Silver]

TUC: I don't really see any indication of them all retiring...

Kirk (late 50's): From the end of TUC and GEN we can deduce that Kirk retires
Spock: (late 50's) Leaving Starfleet to focus on Diplomatic Work
McCoy: (Mid 60's) Obviously didn't permanently retire as he's seen to be still in service at 137 years old
Scotty: (Mid 60's) Mentions he's retiring "I just bought a boat"
Sulu: (Early 50's) Captain of the Excelsior
Chekov: (Late 40's) No indication of retirement
Uhura (Early 50's): Perhaps shifting to Teaching "I'm supposed to be chairing a seminar at the Academy"

I've worked out TUC ages by estimations of dates, background info etc

 

[Therin of Andor]

Another point, did anyone else pick up a hint of something more between Saavik and David, or is it just me?

You must read the novelizations of ST II and ST III.

 

[Potemkin_Prod]

Or better yet: http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/2283-2284_Interludes/youarenotalone.htm

 

[RyanKCR]

In TMP something big does happen. It has the biggest character growth of all.

 

[Christopher]

Spock would know what his strengths and weaknesses are, but he seemed to had it over to Kirk too quickly. Seeing as how Kirk was out of touch after 2 years on Earth prior to TMP, all the time between then and TWOK would probably make his less effective as a ship's CO.

Well, technically, there is precedent for an admiral commanding a specific mission while the captain commands the ship. Spock's "The ship is yours" could be taken to mean "The ship which I command is at your disposal, Admiral, for this mission." And they did continue to call Kirk "Admiral" rather than "Captain" throughout the film, which implies that he wasn't technically commanding the ship (since a ship commander of any rank is supposed to be called "captain," though ST has always been sloppy about that).

In my novella Mere Anarchy: The Darkness Drops Again, I proposed that when Kirk went back to admiral's rank prior to TWOK, it was in exchange for making the Enterprise his personal flagship under Spock's command, and that he occasionally used the ship to go on special missions, with Spock commanding the ship while Kirk led the mission. So in that interpretation, the events of TWOK weren't unique; it was something Kirk and Spock had done before.

TUC: I don't really see any indication of them all retiring...

In their first scene, McCoy says, "Maybe they're throwing us a retirement party" (emphasis added). And Kirk's final log entry makes it clear that he doesn't expect to command the Enterprise again. At the very least, it seems as if Kirk, McCoy, and Scotty are all retiring.

 

[EEE]

ST:TMP - ... they then spend ages lighting the Enterprise and leaving dry-dock.

Sorry, that scene was for me (I'm one of those who thinks the Enterprise was as big a star of the show as the "big three." If not more so!)

 

[sonak]

I don't want to derail this thread by any means, but I need to clarify something:

Kirk expressing disgust at having potentially kissed another man IS NOT HOMOPHOBIA!!!!!!! It is simply his orientation. Just as it was orientation that made Dr. Crusher uncomfortable with forming a relationship with the new female Odan body in "the Host."

Homophobia is prejudice against gays-you can absolutely support the right of gays to marry, have any job that a heterosexual person can have, be friends with them, etc. yet still be disgusted by actual homosexual behavior presented before you because that's the way you're wired.

This becomes an issue of thought policing-you're supposed to pretend you don't feel the way you naturally do because this is "not the correct way to feel."

As someone who is a strong supporter of gay rights and equality of gays, I can say that I feel uncomfortable when seeing two guys kiss yet don't when a man and woman kiss. Yet it's absurd to say I'm "afraid" of them or "intolerant" of them-I wouldn't dream of telling them not to do that or that they're wrong, etc. But I can't control instinctual reactions.



As to the thread-I don't understand the timeline with the 1701-A, wasn't it brand new in Trek V? How is it to be de-commissioned at the end of VI? Were twenty-plus years really supposed to have passed between V and VI?

 

[EEE]

I don't want to derail this thread by any means, but I need to clarify something:

Kirk expressing disgust at having potentially kissed another man IS NOT HOMOPHOBIA!!!!!!! It is simply his orientation.

I have to agree... Kirk LIKES (*nudge-nudge-wink-wink*) women. But then again, his reaction may've just been the false-advertising-reaction angle.

As to the thread-I don't understand the timeline with the 1701-A, wasn't it brand new in Trek V? How is it to be de-commissioned at the end of VI?

No. The 1701-A was a renamed-old refit. Read: Just as worn out as the original Enterprise (my FAVORITE Star Trek Character... R.I.P.) (I think I read somewhere that someone figured out it was originally something like the USS Constellation or some-such... Although I am _sure_ someone around here can correct that bit of trivia!).

 

[Therin of Andor]

Or better yet: http://www.fastcopyinc.com/orionpress/2283-2284_Interludes/youarenotalone.htm

You're supposed to forewarn the pro authors they are about to encounter fanfic.

Just as it was orientation that made Dr. Crusher uncomfortable with forming a relationship with the new female Odan body in "the Host."

No, I seem to recall Bev's reaction was that her potential mate would perhaps keep changing genders. That's what she couldn't handle, not that Odan was suddenly no longer male.

I think I read somewhere that someone figured out it was originally something like the USS Constellation or some-such... Although I am _sure_ someone around here can correct that bit of trivia!

"Mr Scott's Guide to the Enterprise" suggest USS Ti-Ho but Richard Arnold, from the Star Trek Office, countered with USS Yorktown, based on an original name Gene Roddenberry had planned to use instead of USS Enterprise for TOS. However, there was already a working Yorktown at the beginning of the film (disabled by the Probe), so the old Yorktown might have been being overhauled while a new one had launched. (Makes sense that the old one, not intended to replace the new Yorktown, needed a new name.)

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I had heard that the "A" was suppose to be the Yorktown renamed, but that always seemed a little stupid to me. What about the crew of the Yorktown? Where would they go to? At the start of TSFS the Enterprise was to be decommissioned (the line was she was 20 years old, but should have been 40 years old), they could have had a ship under construction then and finished by the end of TVH, which could've been named Enterprise inher honour. That's how it's always been in my head at least, but it's a strange and dark place there.

One other thing that makes no sense over the course of the movies is Janice Rand. In TMP she is a Chief Petty Officer, then in TSFS she's a Lieutenant Commander / Commander (can't remember which, though granted she only appears in a Spacedock lounge and has no lines), then in TVH she's back to being a Non-Commissioned Officer, and then in TUC she's a Lieutenant Junior Grade. What's up with that?

As for Sonak's main issue with this thread, that is a discussion for another place. But I'll just say this on it, by the 23rd Century humanity is suppose to be socially highly evolved (discrimination on sex, race and orientation are all things of the past). Kirk may be a heterosexual man, but by Trek standards he seems to have such a negative reaction to Martia--whether its because she is now male or so alien-like now, whose to really know.

As to how you react to couples, we adapt to what's around us. The more we see something the more used to it we become, and the more we accept it as being "normal" (for lack of a better term). It's great that you support gay rights, but it just shows how "alien" two men kissing can be to some people. I don't know how it is in the States, but here in the UK a positive portrayal of homosexual people on TV is next to non-existent. Until that really changes (like for example in the next Trek series or films) then it's something that will be around for a very very long time. In my fanfics I always include a gay character (sometimes a couple of them) because it's what I want to see in Trek (as well as various alien characters), so since I can, I do.

Just my thoughts on the matter. If anyone wants to discuss this point further, please PM me and leave this thread for discussions on all the little annoyances on the films.

Thank you,
Bry

 

[Therin of Andor]

What about the crew of the Yorktown? Where would they go to?

There was already a new Yorktown. We saw it being temporarily nullified by the Probe as it passed, but the ship survived. The old one, a Constitution-class starship, had presumably been decommissioned or taken out of service, at least until it was decided to do a similar upgrade on it, as was done for the Enterprise prior to TMP. (Not all ships get a letter designation at the end; that was for very distinguished service.)

One other thing that makes no sense over the course of the movies is Janice Rand. In TMP she is a Chief Petty Officer, then in TSFS she's a Lieutenant Commander / Commander (can't remember which, though granted she only appears in a Spacedock lounge and has no lines), then in TVH she's back to being a Non-Commissioned Officer, and then in TUC she's a Lieutenant Junior Grade. What's up with that?

"Woman in Cafeteria" was a last minute addition by Leonard Nimoy, and the scene was filmed at ILM after principal photography had wrapped. They just grabbed her a pare female uniform jacket that fitted, and it happened to have Commander insignia on it. The scene doesn't rate a mention of Rand in the novelization. We, the audience, might recognise her tears for her old ship, but it's an in-joke for the diehard fans.

Rand's rank in ST IV wasn't defined by that script either. In a "Starlog" interview, Grace mentions how people on set asked her what rank she was now, and she said that she remembered being called "Chief" Rand in TMP - so they decided her new pins in ST IV stood for "Chief Petty Officer". The uniform got a different designation after that.

By ST VI, they decided that Rand's character's position on the bridge needed her to be Lieutenant Commander.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

What about the crew of the Yorktown? Where would they go to?

There was already a new Yorktown. We saw it being temporarily nullified by the Probe as it passed, but the ship survived. The old one, a Constitution-class starship, had presumably been decommissioned or taken out of service, at least until it was decided to do a similar upgrade on it, as was done for the Enterprise prior to TMP. (Not all ships get a letter designation at the end; that was for very distringuished service.)

Thank you for clearing that up. Always thought that didn't make sense.

-Bry

 

[Therin of Andor]

Thank you for clearing that up. Always thought that didn't make sense.

Well, today's the first day it finally made sense to me. So thank you!

 

[EJA]

TSFS - I know I've said it before, but the total lack of reference to Khan, the man who has put the Enterprise crew in the position they're in at the beginning of the movie, really bugs me. Would've liked more follow-up on the rescue of the USS Reliant crew as well. Seeing as how Chekov is now on the Enterprise, it would've been nice of them to have stuck in a line from him about how odd it felt being with his old crewmates again after serving on Reliant with Clark Terrell for so long.

TVH - The bit near the end were Kirk and co are splashing around in the water, laughing and cheering is embarressing.

TFF - Aside from the obvious discontinuities with later Trek shows, I personally wish they'd had the God of Sha Ka Ree transform into the Devil and had the planet turn into Hell, as I believe Shatner originally wanted (Though on the plus side, the part were "God" is trying to get inside the shuttle is creepilly effective).

TUC - The way the torture of Valeris is just brushed under the carpet. A little show of remorse would have been nice. Spock at least should have been more sensitive, considering Valeris was his protege and friend. But no, after it's done, everyone's perfectly fine.

GEN - Killing Lursa and B'Etor. Bad.

 

[Christopher]

Kirk expressing disgust at having potentially kissed another man IS NOT HOMOPHOBIA!!!!!!! It is simply his orientation. Just as it was orientation that made Dr. Crusher uncomfortable with forming a relationship with the new female Odan body in "the Host."

Two things: Crusher's reaction was merely "uncomfortable," as you said. She simply wasn't interested in women, nothing more intense than that. She didn't show disgust at the idea, merely disinterest. There's a considerable difference there.

The other thing here is that I'm not talking about Kirk's attitude. Kirk is a fictional character. He only does what his creators and portrayer(s) decide he should do. So arguing about the attitudes of a person who doesn't exist is pointless. I'm talking about the attitude of the filmmakers, their decision to have the reaction played as one of disgust. I saw that as an uncritical acceptance and perpetuation of society's discomfort with homosexuality, and a missed opportunity to show that 23rd-century attitudes have become more accepting.

TSFS - I know I've said it before, but the total lack of reference to Khan, the man who has put the Enterprise crew in the position they're in at the beginning of the movie, really bugs me. Would've liked more follow-up on the rescue of the USS Reliant crew as well. Seeing as how Chekov is now on the Enterprise, it would've been nice of them to have stuck in a line from him about how odd it felt being with his old crewmates again after serving on Reliant with Clark Terrell for so long.

Movies have to be very streamlined in their storytelling. There's no room for extraneous elements that don't contribute to the story. The kind of reflection on past events you're talking about is something that could be done in a TV series, a novel series, a comic book series. (Indeed, there's a ton of it in Vonda McIntyre's novelizations of TSFS & TVH.) But movies need to focus on the stories they're telling in the here and now.

And again, it's important to keep in mind that the way we experience these movies today, where we can watch the whole set of them on DVD in a matter of days, is different from the way they were experienced when they first came out. For audiences seeing TSFS in theaters, it had been two years since TWOK came out. Sure, many of them had the home video release (on Beta!), but most probably didn't. And many of the filmgoers probably hadn't seen TWOK at all. Every film, even in a series, has to be made with the expectation that much of the audience is new, coming not because they're fans of the series but just because they're interested in an actor who's in the film (for instance, a lot of Taxi fans probably came to TSFS to see Christopher Lloyd) or because they're looking for something to see with a date or because the film they originally wanted to see was sold out and they didn't want to waste a trip. So references to the previous film would've just been distracting or confusing to a lot of the audience.

TVH - The bit near the end were Kirk and co are splashing around in the water, laughing and cheering is embarressing.

I can forgive it because it was unscripted -- it was the actors' spontaneous reaction, and the filmmakers decided to leave it in. Okay, a bit self-indulgent, but the cast had earned it by this point.