Issues with DS9

[jimbtnp2]

#1 - Ferengi are CLOWNS - turning ST into Lost in Space

maybe them weren't as threatening as GR had intended but the Ferengi in seasons 1-2 of TNG were at least not a joke

#2 - The music - think grand not MUSAK which was Berman's edict that still has me saying WTF?

#3 - Vic Fontaine - Why WHY WHYYYYY

#4 - Serialized war - this isn't as bad as nuBSG but the beginnings of soap opera were planted

#5 - 110# woman tossing 220# men around like rag dolls - come on

#6 - Too much technobabble and talking in general


and the list goes on

saddly because there was alot to like and some good actors but once you throw in Rom or Zek ----- well you get the point

and NO way GR would go for this

 

[Navaros]

#1. Yeah, Ferengi are clowns. But at least they were a few billion times more developed and three-dimensional than the Ferengi on TNG.

#2. True, in-episode music on DS9 wasn't very good or memorable. But you could say the same about any other modern Trek show, they are no further ahead than DS9 is in this regard. Only TOS had good music.

#3. Vic Fontaine is an amazing character. Easily the very best hologram character ever, bar none.

#4. Serialized war was by far the very best thing that ever happened to Trek. The only thing wrong with it is that they didn't take that concept even further.

#5. Yup this is true, the fight scenes in Trek are hokey and unbelievable, even between men and other men though. Again, this is a problem with all modern Trek shows, not exclusive to DS9.

#6. DS9 has by far the least technobabble out of any modern Trek show, thankfully. All the other modern Trek shows are 100x worse at least in this regard. DS9 also has way more action than the other modern Trek shows, which are almost 100% talking.

Post the rest of your list too.

Rom is awesome. I can see how Zek can be annoying. But every modern Trek show has it's annoying characters. Ie: Wesley Crusher is way more annoying than Zek.

Doesn't matter if GR would go for it or not, that's a moot point. DS9 is the best Trek show regardless, and that's the only thing that matters.

 

[RobertScorpio]

#1. Yeah, Ferengi are clowns. But at least they were a few billion times more developed and three-dimensional than the Ferengi on TNG.

#2. True, in-episode music on DS9 wasn't very good or memorable. But you could say the same about any other modern Trek show, they are no further ahead than DS9 is in this regard. Only TOS had good music.

#3. Vic Fontaine is an amazing character. Easily the very best hologram character ever, bar none.

#4. Serialized war was by far the very best thing that ever happened to Trek. The only thing wrong with it is that they didn't take that concept even further.

#5. Yup this is true, the fight scenes in Trek are hokey and unbelievable, even between men and other men though. Again, this is a problem with all modern Trek shows, not exclusive to DS9.

#6. DS9 has by far the least technobabble out of any modern Trek show, thankfully. All the other modern Trek shows are 100x worse at least in this regard. DS9 also has way more action than the other modern Trek shows, which are almost 100% talking.

Post the rest of your list too.

Rom is awesome. I can see how Zek can be annoying. But every modern Trek show has it's annoying characters. Ie: Wesley Crusher is way more annoying than Zek.

Doesn't matter if GR would go for it or not, that's a moot point. DS9 is the best Trek show regardless, and that's the only thing that matters.

I was going to expand..but why? You rebutted quite well!!...I loved Vic and I saw the guy in concert (James Darrin) because of Vic and was totally blown away by how that guy can sing..and even has a DS9 bit as part of his show...

I would like to know, from the person who started this thread, which of the Modern TREK shows he preferred. I suspect it would be TNG with his swipe at Feringi and Soap Opera aspects...If so, then these differences are never going to be settled between DS9/TNG fans because much of what DS9 was supposed to be counter to what TNG did.

Rob
Scorpio

 

[Geck]

#3. Vic Fontaine is an amazing character. Easily the very best hologram character ever, bar none.

Pun intended or not?

 

[Kegek]

#1 - Ferengi are CLOWNS - turning ST into Lost in Space

Quark, in my opinion, is one of the best characters in Star Trek. He was far from merely a clown, he was a shrewd businessman with a committed sense of ethics (even if they were the ethics of unprincipled capitalism). Most if not all of the other Ferengi were similarly interesting, in particular Nog and Brunt.

maybe them weren't as threatening as GR had intended but the Ferengi in seasons 1-2 of TNG were at least not a joke

Seen "The Last Outpost" lately? Though they were intended to be taken seriously as villains, the first appearance of the Ferengi backfired rather spectacularly - it's very comical. "The Battle" did a somewhat better job, but by the time of the third episode, "Peak Performance", the Ferengi had already been relegated to the role of comic villains. They evolved from comic villains on TNG to a more neutral comic bent on DS9.

#2 - The music - think grand not MUSAK which was Berman's edict that still has me saying WTF?

Agreed on Berman, to an extent this reliance on wallpaper was a problem for all Berman era shows. DS9's music was generally atmospheric, if rarely anything special. "In the Pale Moonlight" stands out for me with its tense cords, and "Our Man Bashir" has a fun patische of the Bond style.

#3 - Vic Fontaine - Why WHY WHYYYYY

Yeah, they used him too much. I didn't like how he was the conduit of resolution for the Odo/Kira relationship in "His Way" (though I'm glad that got tidied up). "It's Only a Paper Moon" was excellent use of the character, though, so all is forgiven.

#4 - Serialized war - this isn't as bad as nuBSG but the beginnings of soap opera were planted

It was a good balance overall, I thought. They showed war episodes, but also still did a fair number of standalones in the final two seasons. I agree with Navaros on the last two points.

 

[jimbtnp2]

#1. Yeah, Ferengi are clowns. But at least they were a few billion times more developed and three-dimensional than the Ferengi on TNG.

#2. True, in-episode music on DS9 wasn't very good or memorable. But you could say the same about any other modern Trek show, they are no further ahead than DS9 is in this regard. Only TOS had good music.

#3. Vic Fontaine is an amazing character. Easily the very best hologram character ever, bar none.

#4. Serialized war was by far the very best thing that ever happened to Trek. The only thing wrong with it is that they didn't take that concept even further.

#5. Yup this is true, the fight scenes in Trek are hokey and unbelievable, even between men and other men though. Again, this is a problem with all modern Trek shows, not exclusive to DS9.

#6. DS9 has by far the least technobabble out of any modern Trek show, thankfully. All the other modern Trek shows are 100x worse at least in this regard. DS9 also has way more action than the other modern Trek shows, which are almost 100% talking.

Post the rest of your list too.

Rom is awesome. I can see how Zek can be annoying. But every modern Trek show has it's annoying characters. Ie: Wesley Crusher is way more annoying than Zek.

Doesn't matter if GR would go for it or not, that's a moot point. DS9 is the best Trek show regardless, and that's the only thing that matters.

It seems that to some up what you are saying is yes DS9 had that but the other Modern Treks were even worse in _____ regard so...

Well that doesn't mean DS9 was good it just means other ModTrek shows were worse - I agree

Now as far as DS9 ferengi being 'more developed' than TNG - I disagree - Bok in TNG's 'The Battle' was clearly defined and served the plot appropriately without being a farce/clown like ROM

Vic Fontaine was a joke - what need is there for a holographic singer to advance any story - this was the start of the soap opera RDM carried over to nuBSG

The war was boring an boxed in the show into a stick formula IMO - reducing the ability to tell real sci-fi stories ie TOS

There were still tons of Technobabble on DS9 - awful

a few other issues

-It became fanboyish - ie the portrayal of the war

-Evil universe was OK the first time - but there was no need to revisit it -

-J-Dax - great potential - a science officer with the accumulated knowledge of numerous lifetimes - and how was she used - like a 16 yr old girl in HS half the time

-Over use of Klingons - beaten to death

-And of course the overriding lack of discovering the unknown or pushing the audience to think as in TOS

 

[jimbtnp2]

#1. Yeah, Ferengi are clowns. But at least they were a few billion times more developed and three-dimensional than the Ferengi on TNG.

#2. True, in-episode music on DS9 wasn't very good or memorable. But you could say the same about any other modern Trek show, they are no further ahead than DS9 is in this regard. Only TOS had good music.

#3. Vic Fontaine is an amazing character. Easily the very best hologram character ever, bar none.

#4. Serialized war was by far the very best thing that ever happened to Trek. The only thing wrong with it is that they didn't take that concept even further.

#5. Yup this is true, the fight scenes in Trek are hokey and unbelievable, even between men and other men though. Again, this is a problem with all modern Trek shows, not exclusive to DS9.

#6. DS9 has by far the least technobabble out of any modern Trek show, thankfully. All the other modern Trek shows are 100x worse at least in this regard. DS9 also has way more action than the other modern Trek shows, which are almost 100% talking.

Post the rest of your list too.

Rom is awesome. I can see how Zek can be annoying. But every modern Trek show has it's annoying characters. Ie: Wesley Crusher is way more annoying than Zek.

Doesn't matter if GR would go for it or not, that's a moot point. DS9 is the best Trek show regardless, and that's the only thing that matters.

I was going to expand..but why? You rebutted quite well!!...I loved Vic and I saw the guy in concert (James Darrin) because of Vic and was totally blown away by how that guy can sing..and even has a DS9 bit as part of his show...

I would like to know, from the person who started this thread, which of the Modern TREK shows he preferred. I suspect it would be TNG with his swipe at Feringi and Soap Opera aspects...If so, then these differences are never going to be settled between DS9/TNG fans because much of what DS9 was supposed to be counter to what TNG did.

Rob
Scorpio

I really only like the 1st and 3rd season and parts of 2 on TNG Voyager was an abomination Enterprise was watchable in the 3rd and improved a bit more in the 4th

But I also watched DS9 - like I said there were some good aspects mainly the acting and scripts - some stories like the MArquis and the one with the Starfleet coup de grace attempt were very good, but overall the style suffered due to the TPB, the stories were too inward focused and the specifics I mentioned etc... add up to what I feel was a large reason for the drop in ratings

 

[RobertScorpio]

And of course the overriding lack of discovering the unknown or pushing the audience to think as in TOS

Which is what VOYAGER/ENTERPRISE did? Ummmm...right.

DS9 was a soap opera, which I will not argue with..but so what? Some people like that sort of thing (BAB-5 and nuBSG). If you dont, well good for you.

We have had five Trek shows, four of which are on Starships. Three of them in modern time doing ship based shows meeting bumpy headed aliens each week was getting OLD (meaning, only 2 million at best watched Enterprise at the end)....

DS9 is the best of the modern TREK shows because, to me, it isn't a sequel to TOS like TNG-VOY-ENT seem to be most of the time.

Rob
scorpio

 

[jimbtnp2]

#1 - Ferengi are CLOWNS - turning ST into Lost in Space

Quark, in my opinion, is one of the best characters in Star Trek. He was far from merely a clown, he was a shrewd businessman with a committed sense of ethics (even if they were the ethics of unprincipled capitalism). Most if not all of the other Ferengi were similarly interesting, in particular Nog and Brunt.

maybe them weren't as threatening as GR had intended but the Ferengi in seasons 1-2 of TNG were at least not a joke

>>> Seen "The Last Outpost" lately? Though they were intended to be taken seriously as villains, the first appearance of the Ferengi backfired rather spectacularly - it's very comical. "The Battle" did a somewhat better job, but by the time of the third episode, "Peak Performance", the Ferengi had already been relegated to the role of comic villains. They evolved from comic villains on TNG to a more neutral comic bent on DS9.

Well I actually do disagree at the time they were a bit childlike for trek and clearly GR's vision didn't portray as well as he'd like - in retrospect after watching Voyager/TNG and DS9 those early Ferengi were not bad at all

AND: While they tried and failed to make them as sinister as GR wanted - DS9 SUCCEEDED in turning the Ferengi into a complete clown/farce and dragging ST in general down with them - worse then ST V

 

[Mr. Fergy]

The Ferengis may be clown at times (See Profit and Lace) but DS9 as a whole is pretty damned good.

 

[jimbtnp2]

And of course the overriding lack of discovering the unknown or pushing the audience to think as in TOS

Which is what VOYAGER/ENTERPRISE did? Ummmm...right.

DS9 was a soap opera, which I will not argue with..but so what? Some people like that sort of thing (BAB-5 and nuBSG). If you dont, well good for you.

We have had five Trek shows, four of which are on Starships. Three of them in modern time doing ship based shows meeting bumpy headed aliens each week was getting OLD (meaning, only 2 million at best watched Enterprise at the end)....

DS9 is the best of the modern TREK shows because, to me, it isn't a sequel to TOS like TNG-VOY-ENT seem to be most of the time.

Rob
scorpio

Actually most people DON'T like that kinda thing - the ratings kept dropping and B5/nuBSG/DS9 suffered general audience drop off

TNG in its 4-7 years while generally going downhill Never really suffered the soap opera fate

Can you imagine Indiana Jones making 300mm with a soap opera style

HELL NO

 

[jimbtnp2]

The Ferengis may be clown at times (See Profit and Lace) but DS9 as a whole is pretty damned good.

I'd say it was OK, but nothing like TOS

 

[jimbtnp2]

And of course the overriding lack of discovering the unknown or pushing the audience to think as in TOS

Which is what VOYAGER/ENTERPRISE did? Ummmm...right.

DS9 was a soap opera, which I will not argue with..but so what? Some people like that sort of thing (BAB-5 and nuBSG). If you dont, well good for you.

We have had five Trek shows, four of which are on Starships. Three of them in modern time doing ship based shows meeting bumpy headed aliens each week was getting OLD (meaning, only 2 million at best watched Enterprise at the end)....

DS9 is the best of the modern TREK shows because, to me, it isn't a sequel to TOS like TNG-VOY-ENT seem to be most of the time.

Rob
scorpio

I agree with your first sentence - ENTERPRISE/VOYAGER and most modern trek didn't do that - hence it never lived up to TOS/Scifi standards

 

[Kegek]

Now as far as DS9 ferengi being 'more developed' than TNG - I disagree - Bok in TNG's 'The Battle' was clearly defined and served the plot appropriately without being a farce/clown like ROM

...and that's pretty much the only example of a Ferengi played seriously sorta working. In all of TNG's seven seasons, which included Ferengi in every one. It was an idea dropped after "The Battle" - like it or not, the Ferengi were pretty comic by the time of their next appearance, and every one since.

Edit: Sorry, took a while to post and only saw your post now. So, consiering GR's idea was a failure, would you rather they simply abandoned the idea of the Ferengi altogether? I thought what DS9 did with the Ferengi worked - actually, I even think the comic villain approach on TNG worked too.

The war was boring an boxed in the show into a stick formula IMO - reducing the ability to tell real sci-fi stories ie TOS

DS9 alternated. We could have both the war and a sci-fi story, as in "One Small Ship". But yeah, it's generally true the show focused on its space opera politics. I don't think that's a bad thing. Looking at, say, the first season, which experimented with a medley of space opera politics and sci-fi premises, the episodes that worked by and large - "Progress", "Duet", "In the Hands of the Prophets" - were space opera politics. The sci-fi ones - "Move Along Home", "Babel", "If Wishes Were Horses" - were, well, less good, to parse it mildly. So DS9 stuck to what it was good at.

-Evil universe was OK the first time - but there was no need to revisit it -

Agreed.

-J-Dax - great potential - a science officer with the accumulated knowledge of numerous lifetimes - and how was she used - like a 16 yr old girl in HS half the time

Such as? I wasn't ever that keen on Terry Farrell but I thought the writing for the character was okay.

-Over use of Klingons - beaten to death

Eh... I liked the Klingons. DS9 did rehash the ground amply plowed by TNG a bit, but they worked quite well as part of DS9's tapesty of space opera politics.

-And of course the overriding lack of discovering the unknown or pushing the audience to think as in TOS

DS9 may not have done the former, but it did do the latter. It just did the latter about political issues. Nothing DS9 had to say about them may have been particularly original but the same was true for TOS.

 

[smeos]

And of course the overriding lack of discovering the unknown or pushing the audience to think as in TOS

Are you cereal? DS9 had the other side of the galaxy for gods sake. As for thinking, get the fuck outta here. DS9 examined contemporary issues FAR better than any of the other shows, including TOS. It delved into those moral gray areas much, much more and that's why it was the best series.

 

[Navaros]

Well that doesn't mean DS9 was good it just means other ModTrek shows were worse - I agree

Now as far as DS9 ferengi being 'more developed' than TNG - I disagree - Bok in TNG's 'The Battle' was clearly defined and served the plot appropriately without being a farce/clown like ROM

Vic Fontaine was a joke - what need is there for a holographic singer to advance any story - this was the start of the soap opera RDM carried over to nuBSG

The war was boring an boxed in the show into a stick formula IMO - reducing the ability to tell real sci-fi stories ie TOS

There were still tons of Technobabble on DS9 - awful

a few other issues

-It became fanboyish - ie the portrayal of the war

-Evil universe was OK the first time - but there was no need to revisit it -

-J-Dax - great potential - a science officer with the accumulated knowledge of numerous lifetimes - and how was she used - like a 16 yr old girl in HS half the time

-Over use of Klingons - beaten to death

-And of course the overriding lack of discovering the unknown or pushing the audience to think as in TOS

I agree with you that DS9 has some weaknesses that it shares with all modern Trek shows, which were not present in TOS. They don't go far enough to stop being DS9 from a great show overall, though.

I don't remember Bok specifically but in general Ferengi on TNG were unintentionally comedic, which just made them even worse versions of clowns. They were gonna be clowns either way. DS9 made them intentionally comedic, which was a lot less awkward of the two.

TOS had plenty of war stories, even had an episode with the word 'war' in the title. TOS however was boxed-in to it's formula and hence it's war villains couldn't possibly get developed nearly so deeply as they were on DS9; DS9 which wasn't boxed into any formula nearly so much as TOS was. How then are TOS' stories more 'real sci-fi' than DS9's?

Do you have an example of an episode where the technobabble in DS9 detracted a lot from the episode?

Not sure what you mean by it 'became fanboyish'. From reading these boards it seems like a lot of fans didn't like any war in their Trek at all and hence tuned out of DS9 because it had the fortitude to present a war. It almost seems like the war was anti-fanboyish.

Agree that the MU was over-used.

J-Dax - completely useless character, couldn't agree with you more there.

Agree Klingons were over-used, but they were paying the big bucks for Dorn and he helped the ratings, so I guess they had to get as much mileage out of that as they could.

Strongly disagree that DS9 wasn't about discovering the unknown or pushing the audience to think as in TOS. The lion's share of DS9 episodes did exactly that.

 

[jimbtnp2]

And of course the overriding lack of discovering the unknown or pushing the audience to think as in TOS

Are you cereal? DS9 had the other side of the galaxy for gods sake. As for thinking, get the fuck outta here. DS9 examined contemporary issues FAR better than any of the other shows, including TOS. It delved into those moral gray areas much, much more and that's why it was the best series.

Really ? Like ???

Sure there were a few but NO WAY like TOS

get a grip

 

[jimbtnp2]

Well that doesn't mean DS9 was good it just means other ModTrek shows were worse - I agree

Now as far as DS9 ferengi being 'more developed' than TNG - I disagree - Bok in TNG's 'The Battle' was clearly defined and served the plot appropriately without being a farce/clown like ROM

Vic Fontaine was a joke - what need is there for a holographic singer to advance any story - this was the start of the soap opera RDM carried over to nuBSG

The war was boring an boxed in the show into a stick formula IMO - reducing the ability to tell real sci-fi stories ie TOS

There were still tons of Technobabble on DS9 - awful

a few other issues

-It became fanboyish - ie the portrayal of the war

-Evil universe was OK the first time - but there was no need to revisit it -

-J-Dax - great potential - a science officer with the accumulated knowledge of numerous lifetimes - and how was she used - like a 16 yr old girl in HS half the time

-Over use of Klingons - beaten to death

-And of course the overriding lack of discovering the unknown or pushing the audience to think as in TOS

I agree with you that DS9 has some weaknesses that it shares with all modern Trek shows, which were not present in TOS. They don't go far enough to stop being DS9 from a great show overall, though.

I don't remember Bok specifically but in general Ferengi on TNG were unintentionally comedic, which just made them even worse versions of clowns. They were gonna be clowns either way. DS9 made them intentionally comedic, which was a lot less awkward of the two.

TOS had plenty of war stories, even had an episode with the word 'war' in the title. TOS however was boxed-in to it's formula and hence it's war villains couldn't possibly get developed nearly so deeply as they were on DS9; DS9 which wasn't boxed into any formula nearly so much as TOS was. How then are TOS' stories more 'real sci-fi' than DS9's?

Do you have an example of an episode where the technobabble in DS9 detracted a lot from the episode?

Not sure what you mean by it 'became fanboyish'. From reading these boards it seems like a lot of fans didn't like any war in their Trek at all and hence tuned out of DS9 because it had the fortitude to present a war. It almost seems like the war was anti-fanboyish.

Agree that the MU was over-used.

J-Dax - completely useless character, couldn't agree with you more there.

Agree Klingons were over-used, but they were paying the big bucks for Dorn and he helped the ratings, so I guess they had to get as much mileage out of that as they could.

Strongly disagree that DS9 wasn't about discovering the unknown or pushing the audience to think as in TOS. The lion's share of DS9 episodes did exactly that.

Discovering a new southern california alien bumpy head of the week doesn't qualify for pushing the envelope - TOS was always exploring the huiman condition DS9 rarely did that

 

[Navaros]

Discovering a new southern california alien bumpy head of the week doesn't qualify for pushing the envelope - TOS was always exploring the huiman condition DS9 rarely did that

DS9 explored the human condition all the time, and after the first couple of seasons, rarely did it ever rely on discovering a new alien bumpy head of the week.

There was a Poll on the General Trek board of this site a couple of years ago with a question like: "Which modern Trek show best captures the spirit of TOS?". DS9 won that Poll by a landslide. Because TOS & DS9 are extremely similar in many regards. DS9 is more or less exactly the same as TOS. Only DS9 is an improved version due to lasting longer hence having more time to flesh-out it's characters; and due to not being boxed-in to a standalone episode format which killed any potential for character or story development in TOS.

 

[Sci]

To my mind, DS9 did exploration better than any of the other Treks.

Why?

Because we actually got to know the Bajor Sector in depth. We didn't just wander in it and then wander away in forty-three minutes. We got to know about Bajoran society -- about the different factions that existed within it (the Militia, the former Resistence, the collaborators, the Circle, the government, the church, the Pagh-Wraith cult). We got to see Cardassian society in-depth as it underwent three revolutions (Detapa Council, Dukat/Dominion, and then the rebellion). We got to learn more about even the comical Ferengi, who, frankly, come across as being far less of a caricature even in their silly episodes than they ever did in TNG. We got to know about the Dominion, to really learn what drove them as a society to be so imperialistic -- which is more than TOS can say for its exploration of its primary antagonists, the Klingons. We got to learn about the Federation and its factions -- the settlers who later became the Maquis, the establishment back at home that didn't understand how the frontier worked, the folks who looked down on the Bajorans, the folks who accepted the Bajorans as equals.

We had to stick around and get to know the politics of the Bajor Sector intimately; we did a lot more exploration of the Bajor Sector and its political actors than any of the other shows did for one area of space.