Is Troi nobility?

[Sci]

Wouldn't the other worlds have gone through their own nation-state period? Nobody says United Vulcan or United Andor.

True, but it's probably just a coincidence; those worlds just happened to pick different names for their governments, that's all.

For the record, the novels -- particularly Christopher L. Bennett's Rise of the Federation novels -- have established the following full names for the planetary states that make up the Federation:

• United Earth
• Confederacy of Vulcan
• Andorian Empire
• United Planets of Tellar
• Alpha Centauri Concordium
• Confederated Martian Colonies
• United Rigel Worlds and Colonies
• Vega Colony
• Deltan Union
• People's Republic of Coridan
• Third Republic of Bajor
• Risian Hedony

The list is non-canonical, but I see no reason not to accept it. Particularly, I see no evidence to support the idea that United Earth ceased to exist as a polity upon joining the UFP.

ETA:

The United Federation of Planet likely can't be pointed at and be said of "it just like this." This being the EU, or the UN, or even the US. Probably more a case of a little bit of the UN, plus pieces of NATO, throw in the international court, the world bank, and some language pulled from various treaties.

The problem with this assertion is that there is no canonical or non-canonical evidence to back it up.

And then on top of all that there would be major alien influences to it basic structure that you've never saw in Humanities collective histories.

Maybe. Or maybe the particular political pressures that drove Humans to develop the kinds of systems they did have similar counterparts on other worlds -- you know, just like how the biological pressures that drove Humans' bodily evolution ended up being nearly identical on all those other worlds.

 

[T'Girl]

you know, just like how the biological pressures that drove Humans' bodily evolution ended up being nearly identical on all those other worlds.

Except according to the TNG episode The Chase our bodies are not the result of evolution, but rather the result of the intelligent design of an ancient species.

For the record, the novels -- particularly Christopher L. Bennett's Rise of the Federation novels -- have established the following full names for the planetary states that make up the Federation

With the exception of United Earth and the Vega colony, those names exist solely in the novel-verse and not in the actual show.

I see no evidence to support the idea that United Earth ceased to exist as a polity upon joining the UFP

No one else seem to either.

 

[Orphalesion]

For the record, the novels -- particularly Christopher L. Bennett's Rise of the Federation novels -- have established the following full names for the planetary states that make up the Federation:

• United Earth
• Confederacy of Vulcan
• Andorian Empire
• United Planets of Tellar
• Alpha Centauri Concordium
• Confederated Martian Colonies
• United Rigel Worlds and Colonies
• Vega Colony
• Deltan Union
• People's Republic of Coridan
• Third Republic of Bajor
• Risian Hedony

The list is non-canonical, but I see no reason not to accept it. Particularly, I see no evidence to support the idea that United Earth ceased to exist as a polity upon joining the UFP.

There is enough reason not to accept that list; it's not canon for the show, it's just some thing in the novelverse.
Also "Risian Hedony"? It is possible that the author meant to hark back to the original Greek philosophy of Hedonism but to modern sensibilities "hedonism" conjures up rather negative pictures. Why not something like "Risian Pleasure State" Basically the same word but without the negative aftertaste.
The whole list seems like he wanted to use every word possible you can use to describe a state/federation/etc.

The debate "United Earth vs. Earth" is just the debate between the official name of something and the colloquial. How many people really call Britain "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"?

 

[Ithekro]

I seem to recall that some of those were used in Enterprise for the nations prior to join the Federation. The Andorian and Vulcan nations would have been more specific I would think.

 

[T'Girl]

Did Enterprise use Andorian Empire? I find I can't recall, we did hear Imperial Guard a few times referring to their version of Starfleet.

And in the case of Coridan, why not just go ahead and call them "The People's Democratic Republic of Coridan" While I think the Federation would have a fairly open door admissions policy, would planet North Korea be even allowed to apply?

Really, "People's Republic?"

How many people really call Britain "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"?

"Al Jumahiriyah al Arabiyah al Libiyah ash Shabiyah al Ishtirakiyah al Uzma " usually get's shorten down to just Libya.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Sure, Trek has this habit of slapping a random definer to the name of a star empire: Cardassian UNION, Breen CONFEDERACY, Ferengi ALLIANCE, etc.

Babylon 5 did the exact same thing.

 

[T'Girl]

Would confederacy (in the case of Vulcan) be a indication that there are a multitude of separate nations on the surface of Vulcan? Or would that be the Vulcan homeworld and a collection of former Vulcan colonies?

Given that royal titles continue to exist of Vulcan, perhaps ...

"The Logical Monarchy of Vulcan."

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Sure, Trek has this habit of slapping a random definer to the name of a star empire: Cardassian UNION, Breen CONFEDERACY, Ferengi ALLIANCE, etc.

Babylon 5 did the exact same thing.

The United States has 50 "states" that, in the realm of politics and international affairs, are not recognized as states other than in the sense that Americans call them states. The prince of Andorra is Francois Hollande, who is clearly not an aristocrat. We call the largest nations in the world "China," the name of a dynasty from 2000 years ago, and not by the name the people call themselves. Often people don't stop to update terms.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Ooooooookey-dokey.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^ Ooooooookey-dokey.

Is anyone one thing I wrote incorrect? American states are not sovereign. Francois Hollande, the President of France, is called the Prince of Andorra. Zhonghuo is what the Chinese call their country.

 

[T'Girl]

We call the largest nations in the world "China" ...

And they call us (Mandarin) "Meig Gyo."

In my house we say Estados Unidos.

Zhonghuo is what the Chinese call their country

Which language, which dialect, which region? I know for a fact the Tibetans damn well don't call their country by that word.

 

[Sci]

For the record, the novels -- particularly Christopher L. Bennett's Rise of the Federation novels -- have established the following full names for the planetary states that make up the Federation

With the exception of United Earth and the Vega colony, those names exist solely in the novel-verse and not in the actual show.

Yes, I already noted that these are non-canonical.

For the record, the novels -- particularly Christopher L. Bennett's Rise of the Federation novels -- have established the following full names for the planetary states that make up the Federation:

• United Earth
• Confederacy of Vulcan
• Andorian Empire
• United Planets of Tellar
• Alpha Centauri Concordium
• Confederated Martian Colonies
• United Rigel Worlds and Colonies
• Vega Colony
• Deltan Union
• People's Republic of Coridan
• Third Republic of Bajor
• Risian Hedony

The list is non-canonical, but I see no reason not to accept it. Particularly, I see no evidence to support the idea that United Earth ceased to exist as a polity upon joining the UFP.

There is enough reason not to accept that list; it's not canon for the show, it's just some thing in the novelverse.

So what? I find that a needlessly exclusionary attitude. It's all equally fictional -- it's not like there's a test we have to study for, or some "pure vision" we have to protect. If it's all equally fictional, and one apocryphal sources has established some info that the canon hasn't, why not accept that apocryphal information unless the canon contradicts it? Anything else is just exclusion for the sake of exclusion.

Also "Risian Hedony"? It is possible that the author meant to hark back to the original Greek philosophy of Hedonism but to modern sensibilities "hedonism" conjures up rather negative pictures. Why not something like "Risian Pleasure State" Basically the same word but without the negative aftertaste.

*shrugs* Is it really so implausible that the Risians would have different ideas about hedonism than Humans? I don't see a problem with that.

The whole list seems like he wanted to use every word possible you can use to describe a state/federation/etc.

It occurs to me that my first post was poorly worded. Not all of those names came from Bennett, although he was the author of the largest number of them. I'll give you a quick run-down of their authors and origins:

"United Earth," of course, comes from the canon. It first appeared in TOS's "The Corbomite Maneuver," wherein Kirk's Enterprise was described as a United Earth ship. It was re-affirmed in ENT's "The Forge."

"The Confederacy of Vulcan" originates from Michael A. Martin and Andy Mangels's 2008 ENT novel Kobayashi Maru. I think it's influenced by Geoffrey Mandel's 2003 book Star Trek: Star Charts, in which the Vulcan state is listed as the Confederacy of Surak.

"Andorian Empire" first appeared in Star Charts. It seems taken from the canon, given the use of the "Andorian Imperial Guard" on ENT. It first appeared in the novels in 2012's Rise of the Federation: A Choice of Futures by Bennett.

"United Planets of Tellar" first appeared in an RPG manual. It was first used in the novels in Choice of Futures.

"Alpha Centauri Concordium" was first established in Choice of Futures.

All of the names of the founding Federation worlds were influenced by Franz Joseph's legendary 1975 Star Fleet Technical Manual, which established the following formal names for those worlds:

• Vulcan: Planetary Confederation of 40 Eridani
• Tellar: United Planets of 61 Cygni
• Andor: Star Empire of Epsilon Indii
• Alpha Centauri: Alpha Centauri Concordium of Planets

Obviously, the names for the Tellarite and Centauri states were the closest to Joseph's names. Bennett has cited it as his primary influence on those states' names in his annotations.

Of the remainder:

"Confederated Martian Colonies" first appeared in the 2009 ENT novel The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing. It seems influenced by Mandel's "United Martian Colonies" in Star Charts.

Bennett first used the name "United Rigel Worlds and Colonies" in the 2013 ENT novel Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel. It seems influenced by Mandel's "United Rigel Colonies" in Star Charts.

Mandel first established "Risian Hedony," which was then used in the 2006 Starfleet Corps of Engineers novella The Future Begins by Steve Mollmann and Michael Schuster.

"People's Republic of Coridan" remains unique to Star Charts.

"Third Republic of Bajor" was established in Star Charts and then used by David Mack in his 2014 novel Section 31: Disavowed.

"Deltan Union" was first established in Star Charts and then used by Bennett in his 2015 ENT novel Rise of the Federation: Uncertain Logic.

There are other Federation Member names established in Star Charts that I forgot in my previous post, but they haven't been used or modified by the novels. They include:

Plutocracy of Ardana
Commonwealth of Menk and Valkis
Commonwealth of Denebia
Trill Symbiosis (I think this one is stupid)

So it's not so much a matter of trying to find different kinds of names for different states, so much as it is a matter of different authors having different ideas and building on or modifying others that came before them. Looking at it now after writing all that out, it seems to me that Joseph and Mandel are the most influential authors when it comes to the names of the various UFP members.

And in the case of Coridan, why not just go ahead and call them "The People's Democratic Republic of Coridan" While I think the Federation would have a fairly open door admissions policy, would planet North Korea be even allowed to apply?

Really, "People's Republic?"

I mean, if they'll let the virtual slave state of Ardana in, why not a People's Republic of Coridan?

Besides, who's to say that Coridan isn't a genuinely democratic state rather than a North Korea-style democracy-in-name-only?

How many people really call Britain "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"?

"Al Jumahiriyah al Arabiyah al Libiyah ash Shabiyah al Ishtirakiyah al Uzma " usually get's shorten down to just Libya.

Though that was just its formal name under Gaddafi. Its current formal name transliterates to Awanak n Libya, which translates simply to "State of Libya."

Sure, Trek has this habit of slapping a random definer to the name of a star empire: Cardassian UNION, Breen CONFEDERACY, Ferengi ALLIANCE, etc.

Babylon 5 did the exact same thing.

The One-Steve Limit?

Would confederacy (in the case of Vulcan) be a indication that there are a multitude of separate nations on the surface of Vulcan? Or would that be the Vulcan homeworld and a collection of former Vulcan colonies?

I see no reason why Vulcan can't have separate nations on its surface who have all united yet remain distinct within the Vulcan polity.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

We call the largest nations in the world "China" ...

And they call us (Mandarin) "Meig Gyo."

In my house we say Estados Unidos.

Zhonghuo is what the Chinese call their country

Which language, which dialect, which region? I know for a fact the Tibetans damn well don't call their country by that word.

Tibetans don't call themselves Chinese, do they?

I don't know what the specific linguistic origins of the term is, but it is very old, from when power was more centered in the south. It means central kingdom, referring to the unifying power of the state, and it is a term that have become ubiquitous (at least among the Han majority).

 

[T'Girl]

Tibetans don't call themselves Chinese, do they?

Not to my knowledge, but then how many people within the borders of China do?

 

[Sci]

Zhōngguó is the pinyin transliteration of the Mandarin word for "China."

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Zhōngguó is the pinyin transliteration of the Mandarin word for "China."

No, it's not. Depending on whom you ask, China comes from either Qin Dynasty or a reference to the western territories. Indeed, if you looked at the etymology section of that page or clicked onto "Names of China," you would know that China and Zhongguo are not equivalent.

 

[Sci]

Zhōngguó is the pinyin transliteration of the Mandarin word for "China."

No, it's not. Depending on whom you ask, China comes from either Qin Dynasty or a reference to the western territories. Indeed, if you looked at the etymology section of that page or clicked onto "Names of China," you would know that China and Zhongguo are not equivalent.

Well, just a quick glance at China:Etymology says: "The common Chinese names for the country are Zhōngguó (Chinese: 中国, from zhōng, "central" or "middle", and guó, "state" or "states," and in modern times, "nation") and Zhōnghuá (Chinese: 中华), although the country's official name has been changed numerous times by successive dynasties and modern governments."

And the first sentence on Names of China is, "In China, common names for China include Zhongguo (中國/中国) and Zhonghua (中華/中华), while Han (漢/汉) and Tang (唐) are common names given for the Chinese ethnicity."

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Zhōngguó is the pinyin transliteration of the Mandarin word for "China."

No, it's not. Depending on whom you ask, China comes from either Qin Dynasty or a reference to the western territories. Indeed, if you looked at the etymology section of that page or clicked onto "Names of China," you would know that China and Zhongguo are not equivalent.

Well, just a quick glance at China:Etymology says: "The common Chinese names for the country are Zhōngguó (Chinese: 中国, from zhōng, "central" or "middle", and guó, "state" or "states," and in modern times, "nation") and Zhōnghuá (Chinese: 中华), although the country's official name has been changed numerous times by successive dynasties and modern governments."

And the first sentence on Names of China is, "In China, common names for China include Zhongguo (中國/中国) and Zhonghua (中華/中华), while Han (漢/汉) and Tang (唐) are common names given for the Chinese ethnicity."

It also says:

many names of China exist, mainly transliterations of the dynasties "Qin" or "Jin" (e.g. China, Sino), and Han or Tang.

This is the word for China used in Middle Persian (Chīnī چین), derived from Sanskrit Cīnāh (चीन).[36] The modern word "China" originated with Portuguese explorers of the 16th century and is derived from this usage.[37]

The name "China" is derived from Middle Persian Chīnī چین and Sanskrit Cīnāh (चीन).[36] The traditional etymology, proposed in the 17th century by Martin Martini and supported by later scholars such as Paul Pelliot is that the word is derived from the Qin state or dynasty (秦, Old Chinese: *dzin) which ruled China from 221–206 BC.[38] This is still the most commonly known theory.[39] However, the word appears in Hindu scripture prior to the establishment of this dynasty.[40] Patrick Olivelle suggests that the existence of China became known to Indians in the 1st century BC, so the word must have referred to something else prior to that time.[41] According to Geoff Wade, in the Mahabharata, Cīnāh likely refers to an ancient kingdom centered in present-day Guizhou, called Yelang, in the south Tibeto-Burman highlands.[42] The inhabitants referred to themselves as Zina according to Wade.[42] The word "China" is first recorded in 1516 in the journal of Portuguese explorer Duarte Barbosa.[37] The word is first recorded in English in a translation published in 1555.[43]

All the possible derivations of the word "China" have nothing in common with Zhongguo (outside of the fact that the Qin were once at the head of such a "central kingdom").

 

[Sci]

No, it's not. Depending on whom you ask, China comes from either Qin Dynasty or a reference to the western territories. Indeed, if you looked at the etymology section of that page or clicked onto "Names of China," you would know that China and Zhongguo are not equivalent.

Well, just a quick glance at China:Etymology says: "The common Chinese names for the country are Zhōngguó (Chinese: 中国, from zhōng, "central" or "middle", and guó, "state" or "states," and in modern times, "nation") and Zhōnghuá (Chinese: 中华), although the country's official name has been changed numerous times by successive dynasties and modern governments."

And the first sentence on Names of China is, "In China, common names for China include Zhongguo (中國/中国) and Zhonghua (中華/中华), while Han (漢/汉) and Tang (唐) are common names given for the Chinese ethnicity."

It also says:

This is the word for China used in Middle Persian (Chīnī چین), derived from Sanskrit Cīnāh (चीन).[36] The modern word "China" originated with Portuguese explorers of the 16th century and is derived from this usage.[37]

The name "China" is derived from Middle Persian Chīnī چین and Sanskrit Cīnāh (चीन).[36] The traditional etymology, proposed in the 17th century by Martin Martini and supported by later scholars such as Paul Pelliot is that the word is derived from the Qin state or dynasty (秦, Old Chinese: *dzin) which ruled China from 221–206 BC.[38] This is still the most commonly known theory.[39] However, the word appears in Hindu scripture prior to the establishment of this dynasty.[40] Patrick Olivelle suggests that the existence of China became known to Indians in the 1st century BC, so the word must have referred to something else prior to that time.[41] According to Geoff Wade, in the Mahabharata, Cīnāh likely refers to an ancient kingdom centered in present-day Guizhou, called Yelang, in the south Tibeto-Burman highlands.[42] The inhabitants referred to themselves as Zina according to Wade.[42] The word "China" is first recorded in 1516 in the journal of Portuguese explorer Duarte Barbosa.[37] The word is first recorded in English in a translation published in 1555.[43]

All the possible derivations of the word "China" have nothing in common with Zhongguo (outside of the fact that the Qin were once at the head of such a "central kingdom").

I think we're talking past each other.

When I said "Zhōngguó is the pinyin transliteration of the Mandarin word for "China," my intent was to say that Zhōngguó is the Mandarin term for the country known in English as China. I was not trying to say that the terms are etymologically related.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

^I think you are trying to convince me that I am making hay out of nothing, that the difference between China and Zhongguo is not unlike Munich/München, Copenhagen/København, or Peking/Beijing. "China" is a deeply vestigial usage, born of and ingrained in the Western mind, that does not reflect how the people see their state or country, more like Finland/Suomi. It is an exonym.