Is TMP generally rated so low due to the romantic elements?

[Pauln6]

So call me crazy, I did think it felt like Star Trek. It had some great character moments, and they did really get to explore something strange and new. I don't even hate the costumes. It's a shame it wasn't popular, and I think with a little more attention paid to the script, a contemplative work like that could've been a lot more successful. But even for all its failures, it's my kind of Star Trek.

Actually, it was hugely popular! Most people just acknowledge that it could have been a much better movie if it hadn't had so many difficulties with the script. I don't hate the uniforms either, although I long for a bit more logic in their implementation. The only thing that scared me was the promo pic of Decker (and I think possibly Spock too) in a one-piece - yowser I'm glad that the male one-piece jumpsuit was a rarity in the movie.

 

[RookieBatman]

So call me crazy, I did think it felt like Star Trek. It had some great character moments, and they did really get to explore something strange and new. I don't even hate the costumes. It's a shame it wasn't popular, and I think with a little more attention paid to the script, a contemplative work like that could've been a lot more successful. But even for all its failures, it's my kind of Star Trek.

Actually, it was hugely popular! Most people just acknowledge that it could have been a much better movie if it hadn't had so many difficulties with the script.

Well, yeah, it was popular in a way, but wasn't a lot of that just because people were desperate for any type of new Star Trek? Didn't it kinda get a generally poor reaction even from some of the fans who saw it multiple times?
But, either way, I guess what I meant was that I wish it had been successful enough (according to whatever standard of measure) that they wouldn't have felt the need to reformat the franchise as moderately-budgeted action-adventure.

 

[Pauln6]

But, either way, I guess what I meant was that I wish it had been successful enough (according to whatever standard of measure) that they wouldn't have felt the need to reformat the franchise as moderately-budgeted action-adventure.

It's a shame that the aborted costs of Phase II are included in the movie's budget as it really bigs up the cost. I have mixed feelings though. I think the grandeur of TMP, the look of the ship and the nice spread of alien crew was missed by me in the later movies.

But then I'd have settled for moderately budgeted TV movies (or two-part mini series) twice a year at Easter and Xmas like they did with Dr Who last year. At least we'd have got more Trek for our buck for a few years but who knows if we'd ever have got TWoK ot TNG?

 

[RookieBatman]

^Also true. I didn't know if you've read the Phase II book, but the authors' theory in that was that if Phase II had been made, it probably would've rapidly bled viewers, been canceled at the end of the first season (or sooner), and sounded the death knell of Star Trek.

Who can say if that's true or not, but it is an interesting thought.

 

[Kelso]

TMP is generally disliked because it made no attempt to recapture the humor and action-adventure elements of the original series.

 

[RookieBatman]

Well, I didn't much care for the humor. No arguments about the action, but it is adventure, just in a much more subtle way.

I agree it's not for everybody. I just wish it could've been.

 

[Therin of Andor]

I'm not gonna bother trying to defend TMP; I'm just gonna accept that my taste is different from most people's.

What I find tricky is that ST:TMP is my favourite film of all time (although I can certainly see its flaws) and JJ's Star Trek would rank as second.

got cracking on the novelization, and finished that in time to watch the DE on the next Saturday. And I was riveted the whole time, never bored for a second.

My advantage may have been that, as a non ST fan who'd managed to see only random episodes of TAS and TOS over the years, but with an interest in numerous TV reunion movies, I got frustrated waiting for friends and relatives agreeing to go with me. I ended up reading the movie's novelization (and an amazing five-part "making of" newspaper feature) before going to see the movie... alone!

There started my career as a ST fan, but also I began to go a see lots of movies alone. Prior to that I really hadn't considered that one could do that.

So call me crazy, I did think it felt like Star Trek. It had some great character moments, and they did really get to explore something strange and new. I don't even hate the costumes. It's a shame it wasn't popular, and I think with a little more attention paid to the script, a contemplative work like that could've been a lot more successful. But even for all its failures, it's my kind of Star Trek.

Same here, but then, so is JJ's.

My continued frustration with TMP, having then seen it four times in first release, then chasing it around suburban cinemas and community halls over the next year, is that I was ready for "the next episode" of "ST: Phase II". I met many ST fans that year after joining a local fan club, but the diehards often hated TMP with exactly the same passion as few identities here hate JJ's movie! They simply refused to accept that I loved TMP.

When ST II came along, so many things I'd loved had changed, so it really did not feel like Episode #2 of TMP, but a fresh beginning. Most of the old diehards were saying, "That's better!" but I couldn't agree. Sure, I appreciated ST II, but my connection was with TMP.

 

[Chrisisall]

Therin, we REACH!

 

[Therin of Andor]

Therin, we REACH!

Indeed!

 

[Ssosmcin]

Decker's choosing of Ilia and the sacrifice of his earthly life was the only remotely interesting thing in TMP IMHO. But it wasn't enough

I would have been more moved if they had built Decker up to that moment, rather than just him suddenly saying "As much as you wanted the Enterprise, I want THIS!" Really? Kirk's love and obsession with his ship is legendary. And it goes back a long way. So Decker always wanted to merge with Voyager 6? He's not joining Iila, the real Ilia is dead. The probe version never demonstrated her personality or charm. So why was he so intent on mergeing with V'Ger? Nothing in any cut of the film explains this. You can read into certain things, like Decker went frmo captain to pretty much Kirk's parrot and he wanted to do something big. But this was really out of left field.

One conversation with McCoy in private and Decker's throughline could have been well defined. But, nobody really came to see Decker and Ilia. Not after 10 years of waiting...

 

[Ssosmcin]

Therin, we REACH!

Man, you watch way too much Star Trek.

 

[RookieBatman]

I'm not gonna bother trying to defend TMP; I'm just gonna accept that my taste is different from most people's.

What I find tricky is that ST:TMP is my favourite film of all time (although I can certainly see its flaws) and JJ's Star Trek would rank as second.

It is tricky, but then, there is great value in diversity. If they were able to balance slow, philosophical movies with booming action-adventures, I wouldn't complain.
Truth be told, for all the noise I make, I envy people who enjoy STXI. I wanted to like it, and I, as a Trekkie, would be a lot happier right now if I did like it. (I live ten minutes away from an IMAX, after all. Think how much money I could've blown there!)
Maybe the only reason I was able to enjoy TMP so much was that, prior to watching it, I read a bunch of threads that prepared me for its weaknesses but built up its strengths in my mind. When I saw STXI, I was utterly unprepared for what was before me (although, I at least had the trailer to prepare me for how different it would look).
I don't know, I don't want this to just become another thread about STXI, but I think that it is always better, if one is a fan of something, to be able to enjoy a movie in that sub-genre. I'm a big comicbook geek too, and I found things to enjoy about all the superhero movies, even while recognizing the deep flaws of many, and liking some of the more popular ones less than most people. But I've still found something to like about all of them, and was entertained by them.
It's like, with TMP, even though it was kind of an unintentional tease for a "Phase II" that never happened, that glimpse is still better than nothing. And STXI's better than nothing, too. I just can't get in the right mindset, I guess (it took me some convincing before I warmed up to the Spider-Man movies, too).

Pardon my rambling.

My continued frustration with TMP, having then seen it four times in first release, then chasing it around suburban cinemas and community halls over the next year, is that I was ready for "the next episode" of "ST: Phase II". I met many ST fans that year after joining a local fan club, but the diehards often hated TMP with exactly the same passion as few identities here hate JJ's movie! They simply refused to accept that I loved TMP.

I wonder how I would've felt about TMP if I had seen it back then. Like I said, I had my expectations managed significantly before I popped the SLV into my video player, and it being one of the few original crew adventures I hadn't seen yet made it even more exciting. But as traditionalist as I am, if I had seen it in '79, being a hardcore fan of the series, I probably would've been just as upset by it as I was by STXI.
But see, that's kind of the point. I don't say any of this to knock STXI. What I mean is, I love TMP now. I think it's fantastic, I'm glad it exists, I wish there were more like it. I wish I could have it erased from my brain so that I could watch it for the first time again. So, if I would've reacted to that in '79 the same way I'm reacting to STXI now, think how much joy and pleasure I might've missed. And I could be missing the same pleasure, for not being able to like STXI. As far as I'm concerned, (unless you just like feeling superior for not liking a movie you consider bad), then there's really nothing of value to be gained by not liking a movie. I just wish there were some way to change my opinion of the new one.

When ST II came along, so many things I'd loved had changed, so it really did not feel like Episode #2 of TMP, but a fresh beginning. Most of the old diehards were saying, "That's better!" but I couldn't agree. Sure, I appreciated ST II, but my connection was with TMP.

And I bet there weren't even a bunch of Phase II scripts floating around back then, huh? (Maybe at conventions, I suppose.) Not really exactly the same, but at least you get some of the trappings. (I actually really liked "In Thy Image," too.)

 

[RookieBatman]

So Decker always wanted to merge with Voyager 6? He's not joining Iila, the real Ilia is dead. The probe version never demonstrated her personality or charm.

Well, it's no excuse for the film not making it clearer, but in the novelization, it indicates that the real Ilia is not actually dead, she's just digitized and combined with V'Ger. Notice the probe says "that unit no longer functions," which sounds like a euphemism for "she's dead, Jim," but still allows for the possibility that she might still be alive, but nonfunctional. So, essentially, the implication there is that Ilia was forcibly merged with V'Ger, in much the same way that Decker voluntarily did later (and in the novelization, it also does show the probe having much more of Ilia's personality and charm). So, upon merging, he would actually be ascending to a higher level of consciousness, in complete union with the real Ilia.

But yeah, I can't deny that none of that was ever explained in the movie itself.

 

[Basill]

So Decker always wanted to merge with Voyager 6? He's not joining Iila, the real Ilia is dead. The probe version never demonstrated her personality or charm.

Well, it's no excuse for the film not making it clearer, but in the novelization, it indicates that the real Ilia is not actually dead, she's just digitized and combined with V'Ger. Notice the probe says "that unit no longer functions," which sounds like a euphemism for "she's dead, Jim," but still allows for the possibility that she might still be alive, but nonfunctional. So, essentially, the implication there is that Ilia was forcibly merged with V'Ger, in much the same way that Decker voluntarily did later (and in the novelization, it also does show the probe having much more of Ilia's personality and charm). So, upon merging, he would actually be ascending to a higher level of consciousness, in complete union with the real Ilia.

But yeah, I can't deny that none of that was ever explained in the movie itself.

Honestly, I don't see it as all that unclear, though it helps to use my imagination a little. Growing up repeatedly watching the long TV version, I never saw the real Ilia as dead per se, but as RookiBatman put it, "digitized." I even had that opinion long before I read the novelization. Heck, I haven't read that in 18 years probably, so I don't recall many specific details from that. Something about the Mediterranean Sea and Kirk having hooked up with that chick they cooked in the transporter, but that's about all.

It is clear (to me) from the film alone that Decker is reaching the Ilia Probe and connecting with some part of her original essence. Granted of course, that was the entire point of the exercise; to learn of their captor and find an exploitable advantage. Although he was more than reluctant at first ("That probe in another form is what KILLED Ilia!") he eventually had to be warned not to get too schmoozy with it when McCoy couldn't see that spark he saw. His history with Ilia allowed him to communicate in a way none of the other "carbon-units" could have.

Also, though Kirk was an explorer at heart, he was a little more obsessed with the ship side of things, it seemed Decker had been eagerly looking forward more toward the exploration side of things, though that's just my personal interpretation. Joining with V'Ger was the biggest backstage pass in human history.

In the end, Decker saw an opportunity not only to merge with a mind filled with so much knowledge he'd be busy soaking it up for who knows how long, but also a chance to bring Ilia back in some way and maybe make up for what he clearly considered a regrettable history with her. His decision was impulsive, but I never thought it was so out of left field that it was unconvincing.

I'll admit, maybe I've simply seen it so many times that it just seems natural to me now. My repeated viewings may also have lessened the shock of Ilia's demise so that it colored my perceptions of her mortality.

 

[RyanKCR]

Except for two fx shots the SLV is the closest to a perfect movie for me. It moved too fast in some parts for me but then I really was into what life was like around that technology and how advanced it was and then see how primitive it was compared to V'Ger.

 

[Chrisisall]

Therin, we REACH!

Man, you watch way too much Star Trek.

"Is that possible?!"

 

[number6]

Therin, we REACH!

Man, you watch way too much Star Trek.

"Is that possible?!"

No.

 

[Chrisisall]

Man, you watch way too much Star Trek.

"Is that possible?!"

No.

Thanks!
Be seeing your sombrero.

 

[Pauln6]

So Decker always wanted to merge with Voyager 6? He's not joining Iila, the real Ilia is dead. The probe version never demonstrated her personality or charm.

Well, it's no excuse for the film not making it clearer, but in the novelization, it indicates that the real Ilia is not actually dead, she's just digitized and combined with V'Ger. Notice the probe says "that unit no longer functions," which sounds like a euphemism for "she's dead, Jim," but still allows for the possibility that she might still be alive, but nonfunctional. So, essentially, the implication there is that Ilia was forcibly merged with V'Ger, in much the same way that Decker voluntarily did later (and in the novelization, it also does show the probe having much more of Ilia's personality and charm). So, upon merging, he would actually be ascending to a higher level of consciousness, in complete union with the real Ilia.

But yeah, I can't deny that none of that was ever explained in the movie itself.

It is clear (to me) from the film alone that Decker is reaching the Ilia Probe and connecting with some part of her original essence. Granted of course, that was the entire point of the exercise; to learn of their captor and find an exploitable advantage. Although he was more than reluctant at first ("That probe in another form is what KILLED Ilia!") he eventually had to be warned not to get too schmoozy with it when McCoy couldn't see that spark he saw. His history with Ilia allowed him to communicate in a way none of the other "carbon-units" could have.

I'll admit, maybe I've simply seen it so many times that it just seems natural to me now. My repeated viewings may also have lessened the shock of Ilia's demise so that it colored my perceptions of her mortality.

I think it's just more evidence in favour of transporters killing and recreating a copy of the 'original' person. Trek doesn't seem to have a problem with the concept that a digitised person is still the real person.

 

[maneth]

well, 2001 showed how glacial pacing could be riveting, but that didn't quite work out for STTMP.

Yeah. 2001 was so weird that it turned what could have been grim to greatness. TMP comes across as a cheap attempt to repeat the success of 2001, and fails miserably. I certainly don't want to spend another 20 minutes staring at the Enterprise, pretty as she is, from every conceivable angle. The fact that the uniforms looked like pajamas certainly didn't help. The minor romantic elements had nothing to do with it, I certainly don't remember the romance when I think of the film.