Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemesis'?

[Praxius]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

Even if she'd done the best job ever, her promotion would still be %97 political more than meritorious.

A captain for 7 years of one of Starfleets' best ships at the time, then disapears and she manages to get that ship and most of her own crew back 75 thousand light years from where they started, not to mention got the Maquis to join up and peacefully help get everybody back home... fought the borg and lived to tell about it, among many other discoveries and inventions they made/came accross..... and you don't think she diserved a promotion?

What else did she need to do, shoot an apple off a Klingon's head with a paper clip?

 

[kimc]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

She's not incompetent.

She's dangerous.

She'll get the job done.

But more likely than not like a Klingon or a Romulan might.

Based on what?

After everything that had happened to the federation in the last few years during the dirge that was DS9, they needed a win, some victory to claim which wouldn't attest to the running form that they were fracked and frakkdrunk, just waiting for the next frakking which was going to frakk them into their next emanation.

Even if she'd done the best job ever, her promotion would still be %97 political more than meritorious.

Never got into DS9 myself and you can't assume that every Voyager fan has watched DS9 - although I imagine many have. At any rate, while I can believe that Starfleet would take advantage of Janeway's achievements to garner some positive publicity I doubt they would hand over a promotion to someone who doesn't deserve it. That's just another scandal waiting to happen and from what you say that would be something to be avoided at all costs.

 

[kimc]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

What else did she need to do, shoot an apple off a Klingon's head with a paper clip?

Or how about a needle after finding it in a haystack?

 

[JustKate]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

Back to topic I agree Katheryn is a born explorer and after a period of rest and reconnecting with family and friends she would want to get back out there.

Well, I don't know about bringing her back to captain a ship, just as she did for seven years. I mean, I enjoyed that and everything, but I also enjoy character growth, and growth means change. Janeway needs to grow and change and so do all the members of her crew - at least they do if they want to keep my attention.

I question whether it's even possible to find a plausible reason to send Janeway off into deep space again, but even if one were created for Janeway...well, what about the rest of the crew? Individual crew members have to grow and age and get promoted and have families and so on...and that should mean that there won't be a place for some of them on Voyager or maybe that they have outgrown Voyager.

Why, you ask? Because if at least some of that sort of thing doesn't happen, you have stagnation. That's what happened to the TOS novels back in the day. I haven't read any in a long time, mostly because I didn't like them much, but I did read Diane Duane's Romulan series just a few months back, which is set just a few years after the end of TOS. I enjoyed it, to a certain extent, but jeez, you still had all the same crew doing all the same things. It just wasn't right. It felt...fake. Forced. The characters were tired.

So if a plausible way could be found for her to come back and have more adventures while still not being exactly the same Kathryn she was on Voyager, that might be fine. It's hard to imagine this being done well, though.

I am not interested in anybody putting her on a ship with the same crew or almost the same crew, hitting a reset button, and then saying, "Go forth and have adventures. Again."

 

[AuntKate]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

PICARD: Tea, Earl Grey, hot.
RIKER (on intercom): Captain, you have an alpha priority communication from Starfleet Command.
PICARD: Acknowledged.
PICARD: Admiral Janeway. How good to see you again.
JANEWAY (on viewscreen): Jean Luc, ...how'd you like a trip to Romulus?

Wow. Tied to a desk. It's worse than my shoddy decade old recollection thought.

She caught the next Starship headed toward Romulan territory.

 

[Brit]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

PICARD: Tea, Earl Grey, hot.
RIKER (on intercom): Captain, you have an alpha priority communication from Starfleet Command.
PICARD: Acknowledged.
PICARD: Admiral Janeway. How good to see you again.
JANEWAY (on viewscreen): Jean Luc, ...how'd you like a trip to Romulus?

Wow. Tied to a desk. It's worse than my shoddy decade old recollection thought.

She caught the next Starship headed toward Romulan territory.

I think that it's wish fulfillment. How can anyone assume that Kathryn Janeway is tied to a desk from only a couple of minutes in a movie?

I went to see "Nemesis," the first week it was out. I was setting there enjoying the movie and we got to the scene with Admiral Janeway and a preadolescent male voice rang out through the theater.

“How come does SHE get to be Admiral before Picard,” and yes there was a very strong accent on the word she.

I could have told him why, thinking back I should have told him why, “Because SHE said YES!”

The thing is like that little boy in the theater, there are a lot of guys around that haven’t forgiven Kathryn Janeway for making Admiral before Picard or Sisko. Either that or she scares the britches off guys. If it is then they will have to get over it because no one can put that genie back into the bottle. Once superior upper body strength ceased to be a requirement for holding power, women can compete and some of them like Kathryn Janeway can be superior.

Brit

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

Ah, c'mon. We all know why Janeway got promoted: so she could appear in Nemesis! Every Starfleet officer's career is always and completely governed by the iron law of plot.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

Even if she'd done the best job ever, her promotion would still be %97 political more than meritorious.

A captain for 7 years of one of Starfleets' best ships at the time, then disapears and she manages to get that ship and most of her own crew back 75 thousand light years from where they started, not to mention got the Maquis to join up and peacefully help get everybody back home... fought the borg and lived to tell about it, among many other discoveries and inventions they made/came accross..... and you don't think she diserved a promotion?

What else did she need to do, shoot an apple off a Klingon's head with a paper clip?

[/quote]

Geordie and Data got Lost in the DQ. Back before lunchtime and no promotion. Sisko got lost in the GQ. Back before lunchtime and no promotion. Kirk went to the centre of the galaxy and the rim of the galaxy and was back before lunch time, so logically he could travel to both and back before dinner time: No Promotion. Picard got lost in Galaxy M38 and made it back before lunchtime. No promotion.

Her return voyage only looked praiseworthy because she pretended that it was difficult and took the long way home.

She's not incompetent.

She's dangerous.

She'll get the job done.

But more likely than not like a Klingon or a Romulan might.

Based on what?

The Swarm.

She got her hands caught in the cookie jar, and instead of taking responsibility for the consequences of her actions, she opened fire on an indigenous police force border patrol murder thousands to protect her tiny crew.

After everything that had happened to the federation in the last few years during the dirge that was DS9, they needed a win, some victory to claim which wouldn't attest to the running form that they were fracked and frakkdrunk, just waiting for the next frakking which was going to frakk them into their next emanation.

Even if she'd done the best job ever, her promotion would still be %97 political more than meritorious.

Never got into DS9 myself and you can't assume that every Voyager fan has watched DS9 - although I imagine many have. At any rate, while I can believe that Starfleet would take advantage of Janeway's achievements to garner some positive publicity I doubt they would hand over a promotion to someone who doesn't deserve it. That's just another scandal waiting to happen and from what you say that would be something to be avoided at all costs.

I was talking in-universe there. How the people of the federation were depressed because of DS9's grim storylines, not the show's audience from watching those melancholic sad sacks dig their own graves deeper. Sure they won the war. But look at the cost? Earth was raped, sacked too possibly. Betazed fell. 100's of millions (Figures were given in the episode Statistical probabilities.) of casualties. Totally Pyrrhic. There was nothing to be happy about, there were no good days left.

What else did she need to do, shoot an apple off a Klingon's head with a paper clip?

Or how about a needle after finding it in a haystack?

Do you people even know what a rail gun is?

Suck or blow?

Attract the needle out of the haystack and then fling it with uncanny accuracy at speeds approaching the sound at their scraggly haired snaggle toothed pineapple headed target.

Wow. Tied to a desk. It's worse than my shoddy decade old recollection thought.

She caught the next Starship headed toward Romulan territory.

I think that it's wish fulfillment. How can anyone assume that Kathryn Janeway is tied to a desk from only a couple of minutes in a movie?

I went to see "Nemesis," the first week it was out. I was setting there enjoying the movie and we got to the scene with Admiral Janeway and a preadolescent male voice rang out through the theater.

“How come does SHE get to be Admiral before Picard,” and yes there was a very strong accent on the word she.

I could have told him why, thinking back I should have told him why, “Because SHE said YES!”

The thing is like that little boy in the theater, there are a lot of guys around that haven’t forgiven Kathryn Janeway for making Admiral before Picard or Sisko. Either that or she scares the britches off guys. If it is then they will have to get over it because no one can put that genie back into the bottle. Once superior upper body strength ceased to be a requirement for holding power, women can compete and some of them like Kathryn Janeway can be superior.

Brit

Sexism?

I think that from my regard and commentary on Archer (You have no idea how much more venerial I am toward Jonathan.) i have proved that any one who had to use this writers room work to predicate their moral compasses was going to end up being at the least a tinpot Napoleon dillhole half the time.

Picard, Sisko and Kirk didn't want to be admirals. Hell Kirk knew it was a mistake to accept his admiralty and was delighted to get his Captaincy back, and the deleted scenes from generations, it seemed like he contemplated suicide during that halo jump mostly because he wasn't a Starship Captain any more, and then it took every fibre of his being not to steal Harriman of his command.

So what if she got promoted first, or was the only one of them who would even be promoted. Picard had been captaining Starships since before Kathy was born (4 years before she was born if i recall my encyclopaedia dates off the cuff.) . he obviously wasn't inclined to become the brass, but then the ten year gap between the Stargazer and the Enterprise would have you wonder what exactly his passion was that he couldn't quit?

Ah, c'mon. We all know why Janeway got promoted: so she could appear in Nemesis! Every Starfleet officer's career is always and completely governed by the iron law of plot.

Rubber.

The plot in Star trek for the most part is governed by a rubber law.

(Yes I know you thought the rubber law was no glove no love, but this is the other rubber law.)

 

[Kai Winn]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

janeway returned in 2377, nemesis took place in 2379. if she goes on exploration again, it'll be no doubt in the delta quadrant again, an expedition that takes some time to prepare for. her knowledge of the alpha quadrant surely needs to be updated, and from this angle only her promotion is questionable. picard, meanwhile, can continue to ride his boring vessel and crew around the block. that's what he's good for. let's look at his career, born in 2305 (74 years old in nemesis, probably the oldest starfleet captain ever), his first command was the stargazer in 2333. an obsolete, 50 years old design, while kathy got the latest, and finest ship in the fleet for her first command.
2354, wesley crusher's dad is killed under picards command, still the same stargazer. 2355, picard overpowers a mighthy vessel of the warrior race ferengi.
the next we hear from him is in 2364, when he takes command of the e-d.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

Look at McCoy.

Picard isn't even middle aged by Nemesis.

Which makes kathy a child and Kim escaped rogue discharge when measured by a similar yard stick.

Besides, Humans live by a Philosophy, hey, don't mock their philosophy, which seems to be about improving the species and the empire, more so than standing on throats to achieve personal gain.

Everyone is doing what they think is in the best interest of the Federation.

Picard thinks he should show the colours and patrol the frontier while taking an interest in scientific anomalies, politicts and diplomacy but Janeway thinks she should be in charge and dictate law while moving the fleet around like chicken nuggets in Neelix's bath tub.

Sisko went through a period of wanting an admiralcy.

I think it was mentioned in one of the Maquis episodes?

He grew out of it.

Remember how Riker wanted to be a captain before he was thirty? How young was he planing to be when he assumed a chair at the admiralty?

Not that happiness and job-fulfilment didn't get in the way of those arbitrary and superficial goals he set before he grew into his character... His beard, and his gut, but people's needs and their definition of satisfaction change while life is happening to them.

 

[Kai Winn]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

i wonder why scotty wasn't told that bones is still around. back to kathy, don't you think she earned a lot more respect from the powerful ones like q than picard did? one of my favourite scenes is the borg queen stating, visibly annoyed and appalled, "JANEWAY!" was it in dark frontier? evidently learned something about the value of some individuals.
concerning age and time about which star trek doesn't care much, doesn't it come to a standstill at light speed or so? picard zooming off to outer space for many years shouldn't be as old as his bro anymore. what would happen at faster than light speeds? time running backwards? if they get a distress call and move there at warp, they could arrive before the happening takes place.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

This is what I hate the most.

She didn't get respect.

She got instirespect.

Didn't really earn her relationship with Q or the Queen. They just appeared out of no where for no reason. Like cousins after you win the lottery.

Janeway might have earned a modicum of respect for turning down a bribe, but it's not like it was unexpected because Riker turned down Godhood, Data Turned down humanity and Wesley turned down a full sized penis. He knew what humans were all about, she shouldn't have stood out from the crowd, unless Q thought of Voyager's Captain possibly as the antiVash?

There was no real aspect to her relationship with Q which would cause the mad trickster god to take it easy on her.

Sexuality included.

Saving him during the Q-Civl war would qualify, but that's well into their second encounter after he came back for more because he was instiimpressed, and considering she was living an illusion crafted by his imagination, really how much did she save him more than he allowed her to save him? None of that could have happened if Q didn't have sincere respect for the lady which was never manufactured in their first meeting to any abnormally huge degree.

Data meanwhile. After 7 years, informs Picard that he is no more important than a pet to Q.

The whole sex thing is reversed witht he Borg Queen, although, I would have loved to have seen Q ask Picard if the two of them could make a baby, since the Queen had an appreciation for Picard. Then one might think she had similar plans for Harry, but the Borg can travel thousands and thousands of times faster than Voyager and to fly at those transwarp speeds their short range scanning beams would clear into the adjacent galaxies... If Janeway was a threat worth killing, Janeway would be dead. Which means it was all an act.

Or instidread, and instiloathing and instiincompassion?

Voyager was a flea tot he Borg. The Captain of Voyager was a mote riding that flea tot he Borg.

The only thing that could have saved kathy was being inconsequential. A truth that wouldn't hold water for a tock once she started freeing drones and beginning revolutions.

Reset button saved her ass.

I just had an amazing thought.

Vash wished she was a better person.

Someone Picard could love.

So Q remade her utterly.

stuck her back in time.

and smoothed over the edges of the collective memories of the universe to make it seem like she'd always been there.

Vash is Kathryn Janeway.

Which would explain why Q wanted to get his leg over a billions times more cohesively than... than... ws there a reason?

 

[kimc]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

The Swarm.

She got her hands caught in the cookie jar, and instead of taking responsibility for the consequences of her actions, she opened fire on an indigenous police force border patrol murder thousands to protect her tiny crew.

Oh not again.

The police meet you at the border and tell you whether or not you can cross over. No one in the area knew who these aliens were and that's how they liked it. They could sit back and wait for ships to come their way then take them out and keep the loot. In other words they were pirates. Good riddance.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

Everyone and Neelix knew exactly who they were. Neelix said "If these people are who I think they are, I can tell you this is very bad news. I've never actually encountered them but from what I've heard I'm glad I didn't. Most ships that enter their space are never heard from again. Some have returned with everyone on board dead. They're a complete mystery. No one knows their name, how many of them there are, what the culture is like. Just that they really don't want people violating their territory. " They had a tachyon detection grid like the Dominion used to guard against the defiant and Picard used to guard the border of Klingon Romulan Space during the Klingon Civil War, surrounding not just the border of their space but every inch of it inside the walls of their domain. They had the shuttle mission dead to rights for tresspass and shot the crew. Tom spent half the episode dying and comatose. One strike. A warning. That's really good of them considering the guarantee of what would happen to everyone on Voyager if they were caught on the wrong side of the Swarmies border. Summery execution, possibly torture and vivisection first.

The galling thing is that 5 years later, Icheb got caught trespassing and had to chose between running away or taking responsibility for the consequences of his actions by standing up and accepting punishment for his infringement which had already be clarified as being "death" because "Captain Janeway has taught us to respect the laws of other cultures."

It was only going to take Ransom the murder of another 63 space beasties to cross the remaining 30 thousand light years home, and since his claim was that they had managed to travel 10 thousand light years in two weeks which equates to the conversion of 21 space beasties into fuel.

84 corpse was all there was on Ransoms conscience. And 3/4's of that was hypothetical.

Janeway easily annihilated thousands of ships with dozens of crew in each vessel.

If they were still making Voyager, I'm sure that there would be new atrocities to highlight.

 

[Deks]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

'The Swarm' episode is a bit problematic because Janeway freely disregarded the Prime Directive (which Tuvok said they would be violating by going through the border) saying 'we are a long way from Starfleet', yet on numerous occasions we see her telling others it's important to adhere to SF directives.

Than again ... I can definitely see her point of view.
There was an opportunity for her to sneak by the Swarm undetected, however, as we witnessed, they found a ship with a still barely alive pilot who died shortly after.

Captains are supposed to adhere to SF regulations for the most part, however, they are also capable of making independent decisions and are supposed to adapt to their circumstances.
In Janeway's favor, she didn't have a luxury of calling for backup or ask SF HQ for instructions on how to proceed with these aliens.
Adhering to directives 100% doesn't work all the time.
Picard and Sisko certainly got away with interesting decisions they made during their careers.

Also ... the Swarm to my recollection contained (at best) 2 people on each ship, and we only saw ships in the immediate vicinity of Voyager violently exploding away from the hull (but a lot of those did not end up destroyed).
Perhaps a few yes, but mostly, I'd say the swarm in general (while affected and probably damaged) retreated once they discovered that Voyager was able to penetrate their defenses.

I think saying that Janeway killed thousands of aliens from the 'Swarm' is very inaccurate actually, especially since we don't know how many ships were disintegrated (if any), and if all of them were affected (which most likely they weren't, and they would have likely suffered only minor casualties).
Also ... what she did to the Swarm would be in 'self-defense' (granted, AFTER she broke the Prime Directive), but still self-defense.

This episode comes down to the violation of the Prime Directive really ... something that was done numerous times in the past by other SF officers (who also had access to SF for backup and support) ... Janeway in this instance was on her own.

She did indeed get the job done ... and was willing to take on responsibility for her actions.

I think that what she was able to accomplish overall, outweighed some 'infractions'.

Ransom willingly continued to lure and murder the aliens after he discovered that they could be converted into fuel which would enhance their Warp capability.
He was still in the 'green zone' when they were studying the first alien and attempted to release it (which failed).
His follow-up actions were very different in comparison to Janeways.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

I did a poll a few years back asking how many Swarmies we each thought janeway murdered.

One person, they know exactly who they are, said that the ships were all crewless droneships and janeway didn't kill anyone, and only did what she did because she was sure they were all crewless drone ships.

If they have away teams of two, are they really going to leave their ship behind with no crew when another of Voyagers shuttles or voyager itself could be seconds away?

At least one more crew had to be left behind to watch the scans, monitor communications and keep their thumb on the trigger.

 

[fishingforships]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

Self defense. "If someones trying to kill you, you try to kill them right back." =Mel Reynolds.
Ransom was killing them for fuel, Janeway was killing them so they didn't kill her or her crew, vary different circumstances.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

A definition of Self defence this ratcheted means that you shoot smokers because they are giving you cancer, or blow up buildings who express intolerable levels of greenhouse gasses.

It wasn't self defence. It was a verbal and binding contract.

The swarm guaranteed that they would kill anyone if they fulfilled "X" conditions which that "anyone" was more than capable of avoiding. It's almost like Kathy entered a raffle to win a prize. Janeway forced them to attack her. They didn't have a choice. How could they tolerate being known as liars and pussies for not following through with the tenets of their convictions and law when it is absolutely a question of homeland security? Invasion is not something to be taken lightly. Think of the brave Americans steadfastly guarding their northern boarders keeping all that Canadian scum at bey?

Do you remember the Berlin Wall? People tried to cross it to freedom but machine guns would open fire and mow them down if they didn't stand on a land mine. Sure they could take a rocket launcher out of their backpack and fire back at the soldiers doing their duty, but is it really self defence if you wittingly walk into a remorseless killing field? Sounds like suiside to me if you're not half way through some incredibly cunning plan. Of course if that cunning plan turns out not to be so cunning, then suddenly you're stuck in a killing field in front of a hail of rapidly approaching bullets.

Fighting back might be an effort towards survival, but it isn't righteous and barely technically self-dense since they are the instigator and aggressor in this conflict, consider: Any criminal could argue that they had to kill the cops imposing the law on them becasue Jail and/or execution seems unfavourable and dissatisfying no matter the choices that put them into a throwdown with Johnny Law.

What would the political implications have been of 80 dead commie soldiers and a hole in the Berlin wall 50 feet across, do you really think that such an event wouldn't have triggered world war three as a dozen tanks followed these well armed asylum seekers straight into West Berlin and to the ends of the earth to be dragged back to stand trial for being overbearing and disrespectful murderers?

Would you speed if the punishment for speeding was that they cut off a finger? After they catch you and bring out the tiny guillotine from the back of their police cruiser and they tell you to remain calm because it won't hurt much, are you actually going to submit to this? But then what's the implication and additional charges matter of punching two cops in the throat and setting their car on fire if you really really don't want them to cut your fingers off? Does that make you a hero or a more entrenched criminal?

 

[fishingforships]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

A well thought out and eloquently stated argument. I look forward to more of your comments.

 

[kimc]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

The swarm guaranteed that they would kill anyone if they fulfilled "X" conditions which that "anyone" was more than capable of avoiding. It's almost like Kathy entered a raffle to win a prize. Janeway forced them to attack her. They didn't have a choice. How could they tolerate being known as liars and pussies for not following through with the tenets of their convictions and law when it is absolutely a question of homeland security? Invasion is not something to be taken lightly. Think of the brave Americans steadfastly guarding their northern boarders keeping all that Canadian scum at bey?

How can you "force someone to attack" when you and the rest of the quadrant don't even know they exist? All anyone knew about that area of space was that ships disappeared. That's it.