Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemesis'?

[Voyagerian]

...So, our beloved Kath gets a promotion to admiral. But who feels, that she is better served-canon notwithstanding-as a captain? It's workable to keep her there in higher-rank, but, to me, a disservice to her skills, moreso..her passion as an explorer, which she was for those years....

 

[Pemmer Harge]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

I'm not really fussed, but maybe a TV film about Voyager after getting home could have worked. Give the show a bit more closure than it got.

 

[AuntKate]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

I've always thought that Star Trek (TV, movies, and books) failed to appreciate that not all admirals sit at HQ and issue orders. There had to be an AQ fleet and a BQ fleet with admirals in charge, and there had to be smaller battle groups and regions of space that have admirals in charge, with admirals on the lines and in space getting their hands dirty. There are also admirals in all the specialties--engineering, medical, supply, research and development, operations, etc. Admirals are not behind desks exclusively, and Janeway could have been one that was out there exploring and commanding a group of ships doing all kinds of scientific and protective duties.

 

[Brit]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

Everyone should take a look at Admiral Alynna Nechayev, she has her own flag ship and is certainly not desk bound.

I am playing with an idea that might completely fit Janeway's appearence in "Nemesis" - the Diplomatic Corp with Voyager as her flag ship. Simple treaty negoations could be full of intrigue and suspense.

Brit

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

It's pretty obvious that she was promoted out of a position of responsibility for the safety of all and sundry.

Admiral in charge of delivering messages to people who can get the job done without turning manic and evil.

Yes, even taking Locutus into account, Kathy is still unhinged compared to Picard.

 

[RyuRoots]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

It's pretty obvious that she was promoted out of a position of responsibility for the safety of all and sundry.

Admiral in charge of delivering messages to people who can get the job done without turning manic and evil.

Yes, even taking Locutus into account, Kathy is still unhinged compared to Picard.

Especially considering how in Endgame she didn't care about people she'd lose in the future until it was revealed she'd lose Seven. "Who cares? We can just purchase new goldshirts!"

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

Woman doesn't know the difference between a Goldshirt and a goldfish.

Ask Carey.

 

[Brit]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

It's pretty obvious that she was promoted out of a position of responsibility for the safety of all and sundry.

This is the pathetic last ditch argument of the Captain Janeway hater’s society. It’s an argument that doesn’t work, nobody gets promoted for making mistakes. Haven’t you heard of “The Peter Principal?”

It holds that in a hierarchy, members are promoted so long as they work competently. Sooner or later they are promoted to a position at which they are no longer competent (their "level of incompetence"), and there they remain, being unable to earn further promotions. This principle can be modeled and has theoretical validity. Peter's Corollary states that "in time, every post tends to be occupied by an employee who is incompetent to carry out his duties" and adds that "work is accomplished by those employees who have not yet reached their level of incompetence".

So if Janeway was promoted (and we clearly see that she was) then she was a competent and productive Starship Captain. In other words you are either so bad you are fired, or you rise to your level of incompetence and stay there. I’ve seen that work in real life time and again.

Brit

 

[RyuRoots]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

It's pretty obvious that she was promoted out of a position of responsibility for the safety of all and sundry.

This is the pathetic last ditch argument of the Captain Janeway hater’s society. It’s an argument that doesn’t work, nobody gets promoted for making mistakes. Haven’t you heard of “The Peter Principal?”

What argument? It's a joke if anything, regarding the ridiculous amount of inconsistency of Janeway in VOY. But the idea is that she was pushed to the Admiralcy so she couldn't do real damage, not being as hands-on.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

You just made my case my delightful friend.

It took her 7 years to complete a 2 week mission.

That's pathetic.

If they demoted the girl, or leave her as a captain, then any new mission they give her is probably still going to take 91 (52 x 3.5 ) times longer than the objectives and parameters set forth by the people in charge of the red tape.

They created a job for her that is easier than a captaincy: Courier.

It's a short leash to an imaginairy job.

Busy work.

Before she turned up they had an intern cadet deliving messages in person from one side of the federation to the other.

Remember when Londo turned down a promotion in Babylon 5 because he knew it was because the Emperor wanted to keep him in line between the cross hairs of many assassins?

That probably wasn't even her ship she was in when she had to tell Picard to go to Romulus. Just a passenger.

If it was her ship?

Then most of Voyagers crew would have followed her to that command.

Isn't that an interesting thought?

 

[AuntKate]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

I figure she was in command of the fleet that was coming to the Enterprise's rescue.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

More sound and fury signifying nothing!

Picards understudy?

When has Picard ever needed back up?

 

[Voyagerian]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

Actually, Kathryn wasn't on a ship, as was above indicated, when she gave Picard his orders. If you look closely at the background, it's clearly San Fransisco. As for her mental state or incompetance, well, that's pure hooey, and thanks haters for the non-reality check.Fleet wouldn't waste time placing someone in a high position when there was so much to be done yet after the devastating Dominion War, in which so much and so many were lost-and prepare, as any smart exploration-military complex would do, for the next Big Threat. As for her credentials, I'd say keeping the Borg from assimilating them all a number of times, of surviving numerous Vidiian attacks, and other hostile species' malevolent threats would count! No other Fleet captain managed this-maybe Ransom would have, but by violating moral and Fleet laws-but that's another enchilada.As Auntie Kate wisely pointed out, Janeway could have been placed in a tactical or strategic command post-hardly scud-work, and she would haveall the credits to take the position. Oh, and, yes, the Admiralty would heavily debrief her, talk to her officers, read their logs...get a sense of who she was before they hit home, but, more to the issue here, make blasted well certain she was mentally secure and ready, after an appropriate time for recoup, the major new role. That would heavily include Counselors....so there you go.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

PICARD: Tea, Earl Grey, hot.
RIKER (on intercom): Captain, you have an alpha priority communication from Starfleet Command.
PICARD: Acknowledged.
PICARD: Admiral Janeway. How good to see you again.
JANEWAY (on viewscreen): Jean Luc, ...how'd you like a trip to Romulus?

Wow. Tied to a desk. It's worse than my shoddy decade old recollection thought.

 

[Voyagerian]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

Y'know, it's precisely that kind of comment that makes me see that Trekfandom is peppered with people who clearly don't have respect for another's likes-even when they aren't your own. Not all, but I have seen the evidence..and hardly the first time. Maybe you get off on clubbing some character that you see no merit in. If you don't like Janeway, fine. But I am bloody well not interested in wasting further time debating the issue with anyone who has nothing better to do, than jump in and play sabotage games on threads...God help fandom. If I were a newbie to all this universe, I'd think twice about joining any sf arena that has folks getting off putting something down...I don't care whether its DS9 vs. Voyager, TNG vs. TOS, or whatever....this whole 'This sucks or that sucks' crap is nothing but draining the fun out of going to a site like this. I'm not talking about falling into lockstep with the other guy-I'm talking about putting yourself in the other's shoes for a change. I doesn't matter to me what you like-it's your choice. And I respect them, nor will I condemn them if they don't fit my list. But I expect the same. If that's too much, then why waste energy defending something that should not have to be-to the point of arguing why ''blank' doesn't suck....life's a lot better without it.

 

[Lynx]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

...So, our beloved Kath gets a promotion to admiral. But who feels, that she is better served-canon notwithstanding-as a captain? It's workable to keep her there in higher-rank, but, to me, a disservice to her skills, moreso..her passion as an explorer, which she was for those years....

I totally agree that Janeway shouldn't be stuck behind a desk. She's an explorer and in many episodes (and books as well), she did state that what she really wanted was to be "out there" to explore.

In that case, I do agree with those who think that making her an admiral created certain limitations for the character. Unfortunately those who support the annihilation of the character has used that promotion as a "reason" for killing off the character.

But as I see it, being an admiral doesn't necessarily mean that she should be stuck behind a desk. She could still be out there exploring. Just look at Kirk.

On the other hand, if it's neccessary to demote her in order to have her back permanently on Voyager, then I'm all for it. I'm actually toying with that idea for my own stories but I haven't sorted out the details yet.

Guy Gardener wrote:

It took her 7 years to complete a 2 week mission.

That's pathetic

I think you are a bit unfair here.

If you were out on a two week mission and someone suddenly dropped you off in Siberia or the Amazonas, no one could complain if it would take you months to reach the nearest town or settlement.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

Yes, I was being harsh.

But she tasks me. She tasks me and I shall have her. I'll chase her round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares maelstrom and round perdition's flames before I give her up!

If you further account the fact that some mesh between the thought of janeway going native and stockholm syndrome that she began to view the terrorist in her midsts were family.

If when she got home Starfleet was still of the opinion that her "family" should be clapped in irons and jailed for the next 40 years for their extended laundry list of terrorism... Janeway was not the sort of person who is going to stand for that... How on earth could that be called mission accomplished?

So really, it took her 7 years to fail her mission.

 

[kimc]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

Yes, I was being harsh.

But she tasks me. She tasks me and I shall have her. I'll chase her round the moons of Nibia and round the Antares maelstrom and round perdition's flames before I give her up.

Yes, we all know you're in love with her and it pisses you off.

Seriously, I have to agree with Britt that people don't get promoted because they're incompetent, they get promoted UNTIL they're incompetent. It's just the way the world works.

Back to topic I agree Katheryn is a born explorer and after a period of rest and reconnecting with family and friends she would want to get back out there.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

She's not incompetent.

She's dangerous.

She'll get the job done.

But more likely than not like a Klingon or a Romulan might.

Besides, it doesn't matter how good or bad she is at her job as a star fleet officer. The ship and her captaincy is a symbol of hope and determination, proving that (LIES!) "the Starfleet way" will win out in the end.

After everything that had happened to the federation in the last few years during the dirge that was DS9, they needed a win, some victory to claim which wouldn't attest to the running form that they were fracked and frakkdrunk, just waiting for the next frakking which was going to frakk them into their next emanation.

Even if she'd done the best job ever, her promotion would still be %97 political more than meritorious.

 

[Praxius]

Re: Is there anyone who'd love to see Kathryn as she was before 'Nemes

I'd just guess that perhaps being captain of a starship 24/7 for seven years without any nearby help from Starfleet would perhaps make anybody want to have a desk job.

Sure some people love to explore and encounter the unknown.... but when you do it non stop for 7 years with very little shore leave, being on your toes all the time, fighting the borg collective and many other various alien species on your own, jumping back and forth through time, screwing everything all up...... pretty well doing more then what the average human would do in a lifetime...... I'd suspect that perhaps she just had enough of running her own ship.

It happens. I'd guess that she simply burnt out her enjoyment.