Is there an official class for the Kelvin yet?

[F. King Daniel]

in fairly deep shafts

They're not deep. Look at the pictures.

an off-center bridge obviously wasn't the design intent

We know that to be the case, yet as with the Enterprise, plans changed.

The Centaur featured a Miranda bridge module, out of scale with the Excelsior saucer

The bridge module of the TMP and STXI Enterprises are almost identical in design, but clearly not in size. For a more extreme example, see the warp nacelles on the TOS Enterprise and shuttlecraft.

So the second lowest level should suffice

No, it really wouldn't.

Would require ignoring the window row spacings

No it wouldn't. Kelvin isn't a passenger liner, not every room or deck requires windows. Look back at the size chart I posted a few pages ago - the two-deck saucer rim on a 457m Kelvin matches the one on the TMP Enterprise,

There are no onscreen comparisons

Only if you ignore the Kelvin-derived fleet, which I don't.

 

[F. King Daniel]

All you have to argue on is "457 m is official", with nothing else to back up that specific figure

Clearly you haven't actually paid the slightest bit of attention to the points I've made. Re-read the thread, I'm not willing to waste any more of my time repeating myself.

 

[Vance]

The makers of the movie aren't picking random numbers out of thin air. They're telling you how big the spaceship they designed and made is.

Actually, Daniel, they explicitly were picking out numbers from thin air and making shit up. Again, we're talking about people who continued to use the words 'feet' and 'meters' interchangeably. We're talking about people who fired technical artists that wanted to pin down details for FX shots. We're talking about people who used a brewery for engineering and thought no one would notice!

They did not care.

 

[Dukhat]

...Which is actually good for the story, because then we have at least one extra ship near or at Vulcan (the Mayflower), meaning Starfleet didn't completely abandon its core regions when going to Laurentius.

Yeah, but that wasn't really the intention, was it? The intention was that those ships destroyed over Vulcan were the seven cadet-staffed ships that left the station, and those seven ships only. Saying that one extra ship called the Mayflower was in orbit of Vulcan at the time does resolve the discrepancy between the VFX model labeling and the scriptwriter's ship list (and resolves the descrepancy of the scaling between the wrecked Mayflower saucer and the original intact "Mayflowers" from the station), but that's not what the scene was intended to show. It's no different than using stock footage of one ship to represent another, scriptwise (Excelsior class, anyone?) And really, do we need another ship that's even bigger than the new Enterprise out there?

As for the scaling issues, I tend to agree with Vance: scales went all over the place in this movie, so it's pointless to try and recify it. However, if I did have to settle for a certain scale so that I can sleep at night, I'd agree with Daniel that the ships are just very, very big.

We're talking about people who fired technical artists that wanted to pin down details for FX shots.

Huh? I've never heard this? Where did you hear it?

We're talking about people who used a brewery for engineering and thought no one would notice!

To be fair, most people who saw the movie either didn't notice or didn't care. It's only us ubernerds who care about stuff like that.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Geoffrey Mandel was fired the day after producing a size comparison chart showing the new ships as compared to the TMP Enterprise according to John Eaves.

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

The bridge module of the TMP and STXI Enterprises are almost identical in design, but clearly not in size. For a more extreme example, see the warp nacelles on the TOS Enterprise and shuttlecraft.

Both examples have similar shapes, but a close look is all that's needed to see that they're really rather different.

The shuttlecraft's nacelles are proportionally much much skinnier than the Enterprise's nacelles, and there are many differences in shape.

As for the bridge modules... the STXI Enterprise's bridge module only looks similar when you're looking at it head-on, and even then it's apparent that it's not an exact replica.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Geoffrey Mandel was fired the day after producing a size comparison chart showing the new ships as compared to the TMP Enterprise according to John Eaves.

I heard (years ago) that JJ wanted to see the new Enterprise next to famous landmarks and buildings, but was handed a chart of it next to other Star Trek ships - which would be utterly useless to someone like JJ, who isn't a die-hard Treknical nut.

I'd imagine there'd be a little more to his firing than just that. Wasn't the reason given that he was "too close" to old Trek, or something along those lines?

 

[Herkimer Jitty]

Which is still utterly ridiculous.

 

[ST-One]

Not even close, I'm afraid.

Hmh?



The bridge set ought to nicely cover all of the space beneath the dark ring on top of the superstructure. There would be a space surrounding the bridge, yes, just like in TOS - but only a narrow walkway, not an expansive maze like on the new NCC-1701. And the space would be symmetrical around the circular bridge in the circular dome, by all indications from the movie.

The Kelvin was clearly designed to be of a certain size, with windows, airlocks and hangar spaces to match. Not much bigger than a TOS-style Saladin. She was also photographed to that effect, both inside and out. Even the powerplant-interior location used for Robau's journey to the underworld and the last flight to hell is something you could easily fit inside a TOS-sized starship: we see five to six decks, and the dorsal hull could hold about seven.

The creators of the ship are free to say it's close to 500 meters long. But they are then at odds with what they put on screen.

Timo Saloniemi

Isn't it interesting that you use the windows' lower edge and and a point other than the widest (center) line on smallest portion of the dome as 'evidence' for your assertion?

Oh, and using the Richter-mesh (as beautiful as it is) rather than the actual ILM-model isn't helping your case either.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Geoffrey Mandel was fired the day after producing a size comparison chart showing the new ships as compared to the TMP Enterprise according to John Eaves.

I heard (years ago) that JJ wanted to see the new Enterprise next to famous landmarks and buildings, but was handed a chart of it next to other Star Trek ships - which would be utterly useless to someone like JJ, who isn't a die-hard Treknical nut.

I'd imagine there'd be a little more to his firing than just that. Wasn't the reason given that he was "too close" to old Trek, or something along those lines?

And the person that hired him didn't read his resume? Didn't know that he's been involved in Trek since the original run of TOS as a fan and later as a pro?

 

[Gepard]

Something else to consider, to: if the bridge fills the entirety of the top dome but only uses the three center windows, where are the first and fifth windows on the set? The only way those make sense is if they open out into rooms adjacent to the bridge on either side.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Geoffrey Mandel was fired the day after producing a size comparison chart showing the new ships as compared to the TMP Enterprise according to John Eaves.

I heard (years ago) that JJ wanted to see the new Enterprise next to famous landmarks and buildings, but was handed a chart of it next to other Star Trek ships - which would be utterly useless to someone like JJ, who isn't a die-hard Treknical nut.

I'd imagine there'd be a little more to his firing than just that. Wasn't the reason given that he was "too close" to old Trek, or something along those lines?

And the person that hired him didn't read his resume? Didn't know that he's been involved in Trek since the original run of TOS as a fan and later as a pro?

Have you considered the possibility that Geoffrey Mandel was fired because the "outsider" production members got sick of arguing with him over "How we did it before... we ought to do it that way" over every little thing?

Just consider the amount of vitriol that gets thrown around by FANS on boards like this over the impression that JJ messed with their baby; none of the people on this board had anything whatsoever to do with Trek's production and they still take it personally. Not saying this is really the case (nobody really knows for sure) but it's not hard to imagine some of the "old guard" had trouble going along with the changes too, got a little too happy expressing their displeasure, and then got canned as a result.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Something else to consider, to: if the bridge fills the entirety of the top dome but only uses the three center windows, where are the first and fifth windows on the set?

As far as I can tell there are only three windows. There are some smaller features that might be puny viewports, but it's not certain that these are really windows.

Timo: I did the numbers on this myself not too long ago. The Kelvin works at 457 meters long in all possible scales, compared both to the TMP Enterprise and the NuEnterprise; surface features (windows, airlocks, etc) are consistent with BOTH. Much like the Enterprise, this figure seems a little weird only because it's a measure of length: the saucer is only about 250 meters wide, the rest of that length is that enormous nacelle sticking out the back of it.

FYI: The NuEnterprise is 725 meters from saucer to the end of nacelle, but it's only 460 meters to the end of the fantail. Enterprise's saucer is 30% longer and thicker than Kelvin's.

 

[Dukhat]

I heard (years ago) that JJ wanted to see the new Enterprise next to famous landmarks and buildings, but was handed a chart of it next to other Star Trek ships - which would be utterly useless to someone like JJ, who isn't a die-hard Treknical nut.

I'd imagine there'd be a little more to his firing than just that. Wasn't the reason given that he was "too close" to old Trek, or something along those lines?

And the person that hired him didn't read his resume? Didn't know that he's been involved in Trek since the original run of TOS as a fan and later as a pro?

Have you considered the possibility that Geoffrey Mandel was fired because the "outsider" production members got sick of arguing with him over "How we did it before... we ought to do it that way" over every little thing?

Just consider the amount of vitriol that gets thrown around by FANS on boards like this over the impression that JJ messed with their baby; none of the people on this board had anything whatsoever to do with Trek's production and they still take it personally. Not saying this is really the case (nobody really knows for sure) but it's not hard to imagine some of the "old guard" had trouble going along with the changes too, got a little too happy expressing their displeasure, and then got canned as a result.

I find this a far more likely explanation as to why he got fired instead of simply drawing up a ship chart that didn't jibe with what they wanted. I think John Eaves is a great guy, but I think he was either playfully exaggerating or didn't really know the real reasons behind Mandel's departure.

 

[Voyager_freak]

it almost looks like Apollo class except without the upper nacelle...

 

[Dukhat]

it almost looks like Apollo class except without the upper nacelle...

The Apollo class does not have a canon design.

 

[kkozoriz1]

I heard (years ago) that JJ wanted to see the new Enterprise next to famous landmarks and buildings, but was handed a chart of it next to other Star Trek ships - which would be utterly useless to someone like JJ, who isn't a die-hard Treknical nut.

I'd imagine there'd be a little more to his firing than just that. Wasn't the reason given that he was "too close" to old Trek, or something along those lines?

And the person that hired him didn't read his resume? Didn't know that he's been involved in Trek since the original run of TOS as a fan and later as a pro?

Have you considered the possibility that Geoffrey Mandel was fired because the "outsider" production members got sick of arguing with him over "How we did it before... we ought to do it that way" over every little thing?

Just consider the amount of vitriol that gets thrown around by FANS on boards like this over the impression that JJ messed with their baby; none of the people on this board had anything whatsoever to do with Trek's production and they still take it personally. Not saying this is really the case (nobody really knows for sure) but it's not hard to imagine some of the "old guard" had trouble going along with the changes too, got a little too happy expressing their displeasure, and then got canned as a result.

Yes, Geoffrey Mandel wasn't a professional and was fired for being a fanboy. Gotcha. And John Eaves is a liar. Gotcha again.

 

[ST-One]

And the person that hired him didn't read his resume? Didn't know that he's been involved in Trek since the original run of TOS as a fan and later as a pro?

Have you considered the possibility that Geoffrey Mandel was fired because the "outsider" production members got sick of arguing with him over "How we did it before... we ought to do it that way" over every little thing?

Just consider the amount of vitriol that gets thrown around by FANS on boards like this over the impression that JJ messed with their baby; none of the people on this board had anything whatsoever to do with Trek's production and they still take it personally. Not saying this is really the case (nobody really knows for sure) but it's not hard to imagine some of the "old guard" had trouble going along with the changes too, got a little too happy expressing their displeasure, and then got canned as a result.

Yes, Geoffrey Mandel wasn't a professional and was fired for being a fanboy. Gotcha. And John Eaves is a liar. Gotcha again.

Nobody said anything of that kind.
Try again!

 

[Vance]

Er, that's exactly what Alpha was saying there...

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Er, that's exactly what Alpha was saying there...

Alpha can speak for himself, thank you very much.

I merely present the as yet unconsidered possibility that Mandel's PERSONAL attachment to past productions became the root of conflict with other production members with their own ideas on how things should be done. I would actually expect this behavior from professionals more often than fanboys; a professional has actually invested a lifetime of energy and effort into his art and isn't going to take kindly to some young upstart coming along and telling him that they're going to do everything different from now on.

It's not exactly uncommon either; professionals in ANY field, above a certain age, become hopelessly set in their ways and begin to oppose innovation of any kind. It's more likely that Mandel's contribution became more obstructionist than helpful and he was let go for that reason.