• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Is there a major contradiction in "The City on the Edge of Forever"?

That one is a bit different, but I think that everyone was supposed to be "prepared" by the Atavachron before being sent to their selected time was meant to be a hand-wavy kind of workaround.

Yeah the Atavachron prepared "cell structure and brain patterns to make life natural [in the past]" but there was nothing about the sudden appearance of additional people in the past or warnings to not alter history especially since they were allowed to go "wherever they wanted to go." There were surprisingly no safeguards to their timeline. I do wonder if the thousands of "verism tapes" they are able to travel back to are portals to different timelines in their past where they cannot alter the timeline they are on though.

Or a more darker possibility is that they are transformed into data and added to the verism tape simulation of the past and when the star went nova that was it for them.
 
Or perhaps it appeared as a traffic accident, when in reality, the man who picked McCoy's pockets and immolated himself with the phaser would have killed her. Later, a car would have run over her body to the point where one (using 1930s medicine) might not be able to tell that she hadn't been killed by the car instead.

I mean, that unhoused person seemed pretty harmless to me. I don't think he would have done such a thing.

Was there ever anything to suggest she and Kirk might have spent a night together, and at the time of her death, she would be carrying his child?

I see no reason to assume she was pregnant, but I think viewing Edith and Kirk as having become intimate is a legitimate interpretation of the episode.

Keeler doesn't seem the type to have premarital sex with someone she recently met.

I don't think we got any indication one way or the other what her sexual politics were.

This was 1930 after all and many (perhaps most) women then were not likely to do so for social and or religious reasons.

That was what religious conservatives of the era wanted, and they had more influence over things like film than they have today, but non-martial sex has always been extremely common and has always been a field of contention. Just check out some pre-Hayes Code movies if you want a more realistic sense of how common non-martial sex was.
 
That was what religious conservatives of the era wanted, and they had more influence over things like film than they have today, but non-martial sex has always been extremely common and has always been a field of contention. Just check out some pre-Hayes Code movies if you want a more realistic sense of how common non-martial sex was.

I'm aware of that . However, as presented in the episode, via music, lighting, etc. Keeler seems such a saintly, near angelic personality that I'm inclined to believe she is one of the more chaste types. Of course, being a fictional character there is no way of knowing one way or the other, of course.
 
I'm aware of that . However, as presented in the episode, via music, lighting, etc. Keeler seems such a saintly, near angelic personality that I'm inclined to believe she is one of the more chaste types. Of course, being a fictional character there is no way of knowing one way or the other, of course.
I always thought she was supposed to be some kind of religious missionary or something, at least as a formality. The end credits list the character as "Sister Edith Keeler." While the soup kitchen that she ran in the 21st Street Mission didn't seemed to have any religious aspects --no religious imagery/icons, and her dinner speech being about solving world hunger through science and whatnot-- "Mission" in the name seems to indicate some kind of religious sponsorship. So to me it seems that she would have been careful about that sort of thing, at least not to jeopardize her role at the Mission.

Kor
 
If there was any episode that needed to be a two parter, it was this one. I didn’t believe the relationship between Kirk and Edith and it was only the quality of the performers which made me care as much as I did. While I don’t think Ellison would have gone too deeply into the time travel aspect, I would have appreciated more time spent on the relationship beyond her spouting Roddenberryisms.

But yeah, she was meant to die. Either by Kirk doing nothing or by her just being hit by a car one day. I believe she did just simply get hit by a car the first time, McCoy prevented it (futzing everything up) but then Kirk stepped in and restored the timeline.

BTW, I hate the multiverse theory that everyone else in in love with it these days.
 
No, but Keeler could have encountered the homeless man, nursed him to health as she did McCoy, or befriended like she did Kirk and Spock. Then later she sees him, crosses the street to talk to him, and gets hit by a truck.

Or Edith sees that the homeless man wanders into the street and is about to get hit by a truck runs out to attempt to save him and they both are hit and killed...
 
We could have had the crew left behind on the Guardian planet philosophizing about their existential crisis, debating whether/where to jump into the time stream. Did any Treklit ever portray that?
 
We could have had the crew left behind on the Guardian planet philosophizing about their existential crisis, debating whether/where to jump into the time stream. Did any Treklit ever portray that?

The episode doesn't really let us go there as Scotty said Kirk and Spock were only gone for mere moments.
 
Keeler doesn't seem the type to have premarital sex with someone she recently met. This was 1930 after all and many (perhaps most) women then were not likely to do so for social and or religious reasons. The 1983 book Yesterday's Child by A.C. Crispin does have Spock siring a son with Zarabeth back in the remote past on the planet Sarpeidon.
Premarital sex has occurred throughout human history, though the legal and social penalties for it vary greatly, from a shrug and "so what" to burying the woman alive (as the Romans did to any Vestal Virgin caught having sex - whether or not she had consented or had been raped).

What Spock and Zarabeth did is irrelevant to what Edith and Kirk might have done. The idea that Spock would "regress" 5000 years to the point of liking meat was silly. It did, however, give us a time frame for Surak's reforms when Vulcans embraced peace (that apparently included becoming vegetarians). It also made it clear that Vulcans are perfectly capable of sex outside the pon farr cycle. As for Zarabeth's cultural norms, we don't know what they were. Zarabeth came from a high-ranking family and her exile in the past was politically-motivated, not because of the impending nova.

In the era during which the story was written, I believe the prevailing and generally-accepted view was that time moved in a single line, and in one direction only.

If, somehow, someone were able to travel to an earlier point on that timeline, they could theoretically alter anything / everything from that point onward. All time-travel stories from the Original Series followed this model -- you travel into past; you break something; you must fix it in order to restore the "past" and return to the "present".

While the idea of a multiverse with multiple / alternate timelines had been proposed on a number of occasions previously, it would not gain wider acceptance in either fiction or science until quite some time after the Original Series ceased production.
:wtf:

Robert Silverberg's time travel novel Up the Line was published in 1969 (about a group of people who are Time Couriers, escorting tourists on one or two-week tours into the past; of course shenanigans and accidents happen, and they end up having to deal with alternate timeline problems). He mentioned in his email group that the novel has been optioned (I'd love to see an adaptation of that book)... though there are some aspects that the readers of 1969 wouldn't have minded so much but very definitely don't sit well with modern readers (there are some racist and sexist elements in it that would need to either be changed or deleted).

Greg Cox was a co-author of one of the novels based on Up the Line (I assume Silverberg authorized other authors exploring his setting). It's a good little adventure story.

Poul Anderson wrote a terrific series of Time Patrol stories that initially appeared separately, but were later gathered together in either novel or anthology form. The one I've noticed being most frequently included in other anthologies is "Delenda Est" - originally published in 1955.

One thing I noticed about Anderson's stories is that the characters grapple with the ethics of changing history. Yes, they are tasked by the Danellians (far-in-the-future species that humans will someday evolve into) to keep history on track so they will exist. But the real human price of doing this makes it hard, as they ask themselves if they have the moral right to snuff out the lives of billions of innocent people just for being born in the "wrong" timeline (what makes any timeline "right" or "wrong"?).

Yeah, that appears to be the time-travel mechanism (a single timeline that you can change and restore) for "The City on the Edge of Forever". In "The Naked Time" it also appears to be able change their fate. "Tomorrow is Yesterday" and "Assignment Earth" doesn't tell us whether Starfleet winks out of existence or not when the Enterprise time-travels back to Earth in the 60s but does suggest the crew was worried about screwing up the timeline.

"All Our Yesterdays" does give us an interesting variation on time-travel. Beta Niobe sent it's entire population into its own past without affecting the escape building which I think is remarkable. It didn't seem to have any temporal protections like the Guardian yet no one sent into the past apparently altered their timeline (unless Atoz is an example of multiple timelines in action at once?)

As far as a multiverse we do have the alternate universes / alternate timelines of the antimatter universe in "The Alternate Factor" and the evil timeline or universe in "Mirror, Mirror" but yeah TOS doesn't have any examples where every decision spawned it's own universe that they could visit (we don't see that until TNG's "Parallels").

I think despite the era TOS was made they still had an amazing variety of time-travel and multiverse ideas.
It's been theorized that part of the "preparation" includes a mental block on doing anything that would change history. Remember how the official acted in the time setting Kirk was in, when he was accused of witchcraft. He kept denying that he came from the future, wanted nothing to do with it. He was actively afraid, which suggests that there might be some rather painful consequences for anyone who tried changing history.

Yeah the Atavachron prepared "cell structure and brain patterns to make life natural [in the past]" but there was nothing about the sudden appearance of additional people in the past or warnings to not alter history especially since they were allowed to go "wherever they wanted to go." There were surprisingly no safeguards to their timeline. I do wonder if the thousands of "verism tapes" they are able to travel back to are portals to different timelines in their past where they cannot alter the timeline they are on though.

Or a more darker possibility is that they are transformed into data and added to the verism tape simulation of the past and when the star went nova that was it for them.
That's a grim idea. But as we see, Kirk, Spock, and McCoy interacted in some very physical ways with the people of the past, whether getting hurt, having food to eat, and in Spock's case, having sex (whether or not you consider it valid that the result was Zarabeth's pregnancy in Ann Crispin's novels).

I'm aware of that . However, as presented in the episode, via music, lighting, etc. Keeler seems such a saintly, near angelic personality that I'm inclined to believe she is one of the more chaste types. Of course, being a fictional character there is no way of knowing one way or the other, of course.
The original script portrayed Edith as a "Salvation Army Sister" kind of person who ran a mission for the homeless, to make sure they would have at least one meal a day and offer whatever other help she could.

The difference, of course, is that Edith didn't preach from the bible. She made speeches about the future she hoped would come to pass, in an attempt to motivate the men there to not give up.
 
The TOS episode "The City on the Edge of Forever" is often considered as one of the best - if not the single best - Star Trek episode. However, I find a crucial element of the episode not convincing and am wondering whether it is simply a contradiction that should not be there.

Throughout the episode, it is quite clearly suggested that Edith Keeler was "supposed" to die before World War II -- i.e., that she would die before WWII if no one from the 23rd century did intervene -- and that McCoy saved her, which lead to a disaster in WWII. Therefore, Kirk and Spock had to prevent him from doing so. But what actually happens then is that the car accident that kills Edith Keeler apparently only happens because of the presence of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy (Keeler crosses the street again only because she sees them). Therefore, without the presence of anyone from the 23rd century, she would probably not have died in that accident. This apparently contradicts what had been suggested throughout the previous course of the episode.

Is there any convincing solution that is in line with the story of the episode?
 
Maybe (in the original timeline, assuming there even is one) something else made Edith cross the street when she did.

Like there's a bakery nearby and she noticed something she'd like to pick up for dessert.

Which would prove that...you can't have your cake and Edith too!
 
People forget that Edith and Kirk have to dodge a car crossing the street the first time. I tend to think that Edith dies then originally, crossing alone on the way to the movies.
McCoy doesn't save her in the street when he shows up but she skips the movie because of him. Plays nurse and so she's never in the street to die.
And then things are pretty much corrected by the actions and non-actions of Kirk and Spock after they are added to the mix.
 
No . This story line crops up a couple of times .
The TOS episode "The City on the Edge of Forever" is often considered as one of the best - if not the single best - Star Trek episode. However, I find a crucial element of the episode not convincing and am wondering whether it is simply a contradiction that should not be there.

Throughout the episode, it is quite clearly suggested that Edith Keeler was "supposed" to die before World War II -- i.e., that she would die before WWII if no one from the 23rd century did intervene -- and that McCoy saved her, which lead to a disaster in WWII. Therefore, Kirk and Spock had to prevent him from doing so. But what actually happens then is that the car accident that kills Edith Keeler apparently only happens because of the presence of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy (Keeler crosses the street again only because she sees them). Therefore, without the presence of anyone from the 23rd century, she would probably not have died in that accident. This apparently contradicts what had been suggested throughout the previous course of the episode.

Is there any convincing solution that is in line with the story of the episode?
The TOS episode "The City on the Edge of Forever" is often considered as one of the best - if not the single best - Star Trek episode. However, I find a crucial element of the episode not convincing and am wondering whether it is simply a contradiction that should not be there.

Throughout the episode, it is quite clearly suggested that Edith Keeler was "supposed" to die before World War II -- i.e., that she would die before WWII if no one from the 23rd century did intervene -- and that McCoy saved her, which lead to a disaster in WWII. Therefore, Kirk and Spock had to prevent him from doing so. But what actually happens then is that the car accident that kills Edith Keeler apparently only happens because of the presence of Kirk, Spock, and McCoy (Keeler crosses the street again only because she sees them). Therefore, without the presence of anyone from the 23rd century, she would probably not have died in that accident. This apparently contradicts what had been suggested throughout the previous course of the episode.

Is there any convincing solution that is in line with the story of the episode?
Nooooooo. Time travel causality, temporal paradox
 
NO , it crops up a few times, it just gets more confusing the more you think about it

Time travel causality/ temporal paradox or whatever you want to call it . You wont find what you seek,
I thought it was a stand out episode as well. Got to mention the guy that got vaporized but nobody gave a crap, he was rude and nicked a bottle of milk . TOS karma !
 
Is there any convincing solution that is in line with the story of the episode?
Back in 2006 there was a terrific Trek novel published that dealt with the issue of "what would have happened if Edith Keeler had lived".

Crucible: McCoy: The Provenance Of Shadows relates what happens when Kirk and Spock fail to rescue McCoy from the past, and therefore fail to ensure that Edith dies in the accident. The result is that McCoy is stranded, and experiences a life very different from the one he would have otherwise.

This is one of my favorite Star Trek time travel novels. I can't recommend it enough.

It's one of mine too. Not just a great Trek novel but a great SF novel. In it, Edith decides to take in the Clark Gable movie by herself, forgets something and goes back to the Mission for it, and is in simply lost in thought as she crosses the street in front of the truck.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sci
We could have had the crew left behind on the Guardian planet philosophizing about their existential crisis, debating whether/where to jump into the time stream. Did any Treklit ever portray that?

I don't think that would work in COTEOF, because Scotty's team has nothing to do. Their job is to stand and wait. So going back to them in the middle of things, for some gab, would stop the plot. It risks coming across as pointless filler that frustrates and bores the audience.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top