Is the UFP's expansion at odds with its own ideals?

[R. Star]

^

Which makes the "Federation expanding in all directions" as that Romulan in TNG season 1 described it all the more puzzling.

Voluntary merging of sovereign nations takes years, if not decades. Look at say... the EU, it's been years now and still that rubber band union of nations is still barely functional and seems to be causing as many problems as it's solving. If anything it should be the militant powers like the Cardassians and Klingons who rapidly expand.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Cities, on the other hand, annex or incorporate new sections all the time.

Twentieth century cities really don't work as a model. Few have independent existences in most countries, and in the US, they are extraordinarily limited public corporations, not even mentioned in the Constitution.

And the EU does make laws: it has a parliament that meets in Brussels and Strasbourg.

 

[Roboturner913]

Right now, I am at a loss to find an example of cultural change that occurs specifically because of (for the lack of a better word) incorporating a new world.

The above conversation was just one of a whole bunch of times Quark grumbled about the corrupting hew-mon influence on his own society. I think it's pretty safe to assume he was not the only person in the 24th century that felt that way.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Right now, I am at a loss to find an example of cultural change that occurs specifically because of (for the lack of a better word) incorporating a new world.

The above conversation was just one of a whole bunch of times Quark grumbled about the corrupting hew-mon influence on his own society. I think it's pretty safe to assume he was not the only person in the 24th century that felt that way.

When did Cardassia and Ferenginar join the UFP?

Quark and Garrak complaining about Federation expansion is on par with a Frenchman and a German complaining about imperialism 100 years ago: they are competitors in this field, not unequals.

 

[MacLeod]

I was watching the DS9 episode "Way of the Warrior". Garak and Quark have the following conversation:


Quark: I want you to try something for me. Take a sip of this.
Elim Garak: What is it?
Quark: A human drink. It's called root beer.
Elim Garak: [unwilling] Uh, I don't know...
Quark: Come on, aren't you just a little bit curious?
[Garak sighs, takes a sip and gags]
Quark: What do you think?
Elim Garak: It's *vile*!
Quark: I know. It's so bubbly, and cloying, and *happy*.
Elim Garak: Just like the Federation.
Quark: But you know what's really frightening? If you drink enough of it, you begin to *like* it.
Elim Garak: It's insidious!
Quark: *Just* like the Federation.


Got me to thinking. We always hear about how the Federation's #1 rule is do not interfere in the development of other cultures. Now that only applies to those races without advanced spaceflight, but why? Who is to say that is the point where the Federation is now suddenly allowed to annex them?

Well for one the Federation doesn't annex populatd worlds, it

a.>generally avoids contact if they are pre-warp.
b.>Invites them to join if they are advanced enough
c.>If they are asked to leave, they leave.

 

[Silvercrest]

That's why no one ever leaves the Federation. They can't afford to.

I hope your entire statement was in jest, because otherwise it is rubbish.

Hmm.

Allow me

to give

a hint

of my

intent.

 

[Shawnster]

^

Which makes the "Federation expanding in all directions" as that Romulan in TNG season 1 described it all the more puzzling.

You seriously do need to quit listening to Romulan propaganda

 

[The Old Mixer]

Got me to thinking. We always hear about how the Federation's #1 rule is do not interfere in the development of other cultures. Now that only applies to those races without advanced spaceflight, but why? Who is to say that is the point where the Federation is now suddenly allowed to annex them?

Is it not possible this culture could still undergo significant and valuable development that now maybe does not happen?

Once they have warp drive, they're going to be heading out into the greater galactic neighborhood and meeting other spacefaring races one way or the other. The Federation is just sending the welcome wagon to try to keep negative incidents from happening. Picard explains this in the episode "First Contact".

 

[R. Star]

^

Which makes the "Federation expanding in all directions" as that Romulan in TNG season 1 described it all the more puzzling.

You seriously do need to quit listening to Romulan propaganda

Typically propaganda is aimed at the masses. Not your opposing counterparts who know enough to contradict such statements if they're not true.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

^

Which makes the "Federation expanding in all directions" as that Romulan in TNG season 1 described it all the more puzzling.

You seriously do need to quit listening to Romulan propaganda

Typically propaganda is aimed at the masses. Not your opposing counterparts who know enough to contradict such statements if they're not true.

You're assuming the romulan doesn't believe himself the propaganda. Considering he's military, he was indoctrinated for years during training with just such propaganda.

Actually, combined with internal repression/punishments (tal shiar), propaganda is quite effective at keeping the population in line.
Just look at the japanese/german populations during 1943-45.
In Germany's case, there was some resistance - after its members agonised for years about the morals of killing Hitler, the attempts fail (dramatised in a movie with Tom Cruise). Hitler kills a few thousand officers, suspected of being sympathisers.
The result: no one even looked funny at Hitler after that - even when being sent to death for nothing, the war being clearly lost and many elites being in the process of making their escape.

Once a world develops the warp drive, their culture is bound to be corrupted by somebody. May as well be the Federation.

Culture being corrupted is non-sense.
There's no such thing as a pure, clean culture to be corrupted, dirtied, lessened.
Cultures are changing, mutating entities in their essence.

But the 24th century prime directive assumes cultures are immaculate and must not change, that interfering will cause mass suicides or otherwise dirty the cultures. Sociological non-sense.
Another poster correctly remarked how concepts of hygiene are erroneously being used by 24th century trek in conjunction with cultural contact.

If that's the federation's credo, it, by definition, should not go out exploring and take the chance of "corrupting" other cultures - meaning, yes, the UFP expansion is at odds with its own ideals. It should be isolationist to a ridiculous degree, afraid to even respond to hails for fear of contaminating the caller.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Part of the problem is that Trek uses the Prime Directive to describe two related but effectively different protocols.

Non-contamination only applies to pre-warp cultures. They're not supposed to be contacted or influenced until they're considered "ready".

For warp cultures, it's non-interference...the Federation and Starfleet aren't supposed to impose their will or beliefs on other cultures, particularly by force. Of course, there are limits to this. Warp cultures are out there, a part of the greater interstellar community. The Federation interacts openly with them, which can involve diplomacy, trade, and even war.

Federation members are expected to conform to certain Federation standards, but nobody's making them join.

 

[MacLeod]

Doesn't the PD by the late 24th century, have something like 47 sub-sections?

 

[The Old Mixer]

^I don't know, my copy's not due to arrive for 351 years....

 

[T'Girl]

Federation members are expected to conform to certain Federation standards

A expectation perhaps, but is it a requirement?

Could the worlds and species that make up general membership tell the federation council "you know, that might be a interesting idea, but we have to take a pass on that."

"Nice suggestion thought."

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Part of the problem is that Trek uses the Prime Directive to describe two related but effectively different protocols.

Non-contamination only applies to pre-warp cultures. They're not supposed to be contacted or influenced until they're considered "ready".

Because it's assumed that any interaction will 'contaminate' a culture, deviate it from its unaltered, pure 'natural evolution' defined as a cosmic plan in whose preservation the federation religiously believes.

For warp cultures, it's non-interference...the Federation and Starfleet aren't supposed to impose their will or beliefs on other cultures, particularly by force. Of course, there are limits to this. Warp cultures are out there, a part of the greater interstellar community. The Federation interacts openly with them, which can involve diplomacy, trade, and even war.

Federation members are expected to conform to certain Federation standards, but nobody's making them join.

Yes - warp being seeming an utterly arbitrary delimitation - until Picard explains the reason in 'First contact', that is. The reason being that the warp culture will encounter other cultures and will be corrupted anyway.

First - the federation is a gathering of religious fanatics, their protestations to the contrary notwithstanding.
Second - the federation argument for contacting warp cultures is flawed, if we accept as premise the faith about contaminating cultures: just because a person may get robbed/beaten in the future is not a valid reason for one to rob/beat him/her now.

In conclusion, the UFP expansion remains at odds with its own ideals (religion being a better term).

 

[The Old Mixer]

^I'd love to respond to that, but I'm not familiar with the show that you've been watching.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I think there's some truth to Eddington's analysis of the Federation. "They want to assimilate people, but they don't say it." They want to make people "Normal, like them".

But, they do it always by influence and never by coercion. As Odo says "The Federation has its flaws but the desire for conquest is not one of them".

The Federation's ideals are not to be completely neutral in the fate of the universe. They want to make friends with anybody and they say 'You can join our super-beneficial community but you can't have civil wars or slavery'.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

I think there's some truth to Eddington's analysis of the Federation. "They want to assimilate people, but they don't say it." They want to make people "Normal, like them".

But, they do it always by influence and never by coercion. As Odo says "The Federation has its flaws but the desire for conquest is not one of them".

The Federation's ideals are not to be completely neutral in the fate of the universe. They want to make friends with anybody and they say 'You can join our super-beneficial community but you can't have civil wars or slavery'.

Such behaviour is most definitely at odds with the 24th century Prime Directive as defined by Picard, Janeway&co.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Your argument assumes that the Prime Directive is an end unto itself, and takes it to a ridiculous extreme. The main purpose of Starfleet is to explore space and contact alien civilizations. The Prime Directive defines the limits under which they do that.

Anything taken to the extreme produces the opposite effect. If one takes the Prime Directive to an extreme that wasn't intended, then there'd be no Starfleet, because the Federation member races would all be extreme isolationists who never left their own planets.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

Your argument assumes that the Prime Directive is an end unto itself, and takes it to a ridiculous extreme. The main purpose of Starfleet is to explore space and contact alien civilizations. The Prime Directive defines the limits under which they do that.

Anything taken to the extreme produces the opposite effect. If one takes the Prime Directive to an extreme that wasn't intended, then there'd be no Starfleet, because the Federation member races would all be extreme isolationists who never left their own planets.

Indeed, The Old Mixer. That's what I said that the UFP's expansion is at odds with its ideals (the Prime Directive, specifically).

As for my 'assumption' - it's not an assumption, it's what the characters of the show repeatedly said and how they acted. The 24th century Prime Directive IS an end unto itself.
See for example Dear Doctor, Homeward or even episodes where the crew made the sane decision in order to hear the pro prime directive arguments: Pen Pals, Who watches the watchers. For warp capable species, see for example Redemption or The circle.
The summary - the 'cosmic plan' is the best option for all species' evolution; any interference will corrupt, dirty this cosmic plan, leading to a less desirable evolutionary path, regardless of the circumstances.
This 'ridiculous extreme' IS what the 24th century Prime Directive has become (as per the intent of the writers).