Is the TSA going too far?

[Subcommander R.]

If you want to talk radiation, you get more being on the plane than being scanned. If you're paranoid about radiation then stay home and indoors, because you get radiation exposure every second outside. And you'd also have to avoid dentists. And Doctors. And God forbid using a microwave.

These body scanners use X-Rays to get their images. Those things doctors and dentists give you while standing in a whole other room. Those things that are on the high end of the EM spectrum, are blocked out by the Earth's ionosphere, are emitted by H-Bombs and are the ionizing radiation that can knock electrons off of mitochondrial DNA, causing damage to cells leading to cancer?

Your microwave? Uses (get this!) microwaves. Waveforms on the EM spectrum that are less powerful than light! Micorwaves are fare too big to damage cells enough to cause damage to DNA not to mention in a properly cared for and constructed microwave they're contained inside the Faraday-cage of the oven.

The sunlight? Contains A and B rays which are less powerful than X-Rays but more powerful than light so are capable of damaging cells. (We call it melanoma and sunburn. The former a serious condition but not deep enough to cause severe radiation in internal cells.)

X-Rays penetrate your body, go all the way through you and keep going. The destroy cells along their way. Microwaves aren't powerful enough to penetrate your first layer of skin.

Most good doctors are smart enough to not give their patients, especially young ones, older ones or those in poor health, X-Rays, Cat Scans, or other medical scans that involve high-frequency radiation because exposure to it is dangerous.

Yes, we're exposed to radiation no matter what. I'd prefer to not expose myself to not much more than the Alpha and Beta radiation I get from the sun considering it carries with it only a small chance of skin-cancer with normal exposure.

Now, yes, the X-Rays used by these scanners are on the lower-end of the X-Ray spectrum and probably still aren't greatly more dangerous than the Beta rays we get from the sun. But they are more powerful and they can cause cancer and I believe they may be the ones that "stack." (That's to say that you can only be exposed to so much of it over a lifetime and you can't "undo" or reverse exposure.)

We shouldn't be so cavalier about willing go through these X-Ray machines on the front of radiation. And comparing the radiation you get from a microwave and what you get from these scanners is like comparing being hit with a Nerf ball being tossed by a toddler and being hit with a hollow-point bullet shot from a sniper a quarter mile away.

They're apples and pomegranates. They're not comparable.

But forgetting any radiation danger, forget any privacy issues should we really be so willing to be held-up and searched to this degree in any manner just so we can "feel safe." (Because this is all it is, "feeling" safe; it's not making us safe.) As I've been saying in the TNZ thread all this is is mommy looking under the bed for monsters to try and make us feeling better.

Unfortunately the real concerns aren't under the bed but in the bushes down the street. But, hey, we "feel safer" right?

And the Rosa Parks analogy is apt. She didn't "have to" ride the bus. She could've walked, she could've ridden a bike, taken a cab, got a friend to drive her anything. It was the norm for black women to sit in the back of the bus! What's the big deal? How's the back of the bus any different from the front? How does it hurt her?

No. She defied the "norm" because of what she felt was right. What she thought was a stupid law and a stupid "norm." No different here. We shouldn't be so willing to shrug and put up this so we can "feel safe."

Apparently you posted this before reading my latest post. So I'll let you read that for science.

But I will tell you that thanks to an unshielded microwave, my mother wound up with thyroid issues.

Everything is right there in the links I gave.

Also, FYI the techs stand in different rooms because they perform x-rays all day.

 

[Small White Car]

Enough said.


EDIT: Ok, well this should probably be said too:

The only people really being interfered with here are law-abiding citizens.

 

[Subcommander R.]

If our airlines were as badass about security as El Al, then none of this would be necessary.

So you basically want to make the Arabs go through the same stuff you don't want to?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ El Al doesn't grope people or put them through possibly dangerous doses of radiation (side note: None of the links you posted specifically mentioned airport scanners). They have strong security procedures, true, but they take the time to do it RIGHT. The most inconvenience that passengers typically get with El Al is the individual interviews that are done before boarding.

 

[sidious618]

El Al is laughing at us, by the way. They think these procedures are incredibly stupid. Which they are, of course.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The only disadvantage I can see with trying El Al's procedures here in the US is that Ben Gurion International Airport is smaller and has fewer flights. If US airlines tried it El Al's way, there may not be *time* to do that kind of scrutiny on every flight every day.

 

[Trekker4747]

But I will tell you that thanks to an unshielded microwave, my mother wound up with thyroid issues.

Everything is right there in the links I gave.

Also, FYI the techs stand in different rooms because they perform x-rays all day.

None of your links mention microwaves.

As for your mother I, personally, doubt the "unshielded microwave" alone caused your mother's thyroid issues. As I said microwaves are less intense than visible light so if microwaves were causing her thyroid issues then light was too not to mention the microwaves in use in the atmosphere for many cell-phone networks.

So I really doubt the unshielded microwave caused her thyroid issue without an underlining condition.

 

[Subcommander R.]

^ El Al doesn't grope people or put them through possibly dangerous doses of radiation (side note: None of the links you posted specifically mentioned airport scanners). They have strong security procedures, true, but they take the time to do it RIGHT. The most inconvenience that passengers typically get with El Al is the individual interviews that are done before boarding.

Its not dangerous. You'll notice that the imagery isn't penetrating like an x-ray. As a matter of fact, its 1/1000 of a dental x-ray in exposure.

radiation from one scan is about the same as a person would get from flying for about three minutes in an airplane at 30,000 feet

http://health.usnews.com/health-new...3/airport-body-scanners-safe-experts-say.html

http://www.usatoday.com/yourlife/health/medical/cancer/2010-11-18-scanner-radiation_N.htm

I find it insane that you prefer racial profiling to a simple scan.

None of your links mention microwaves.

As for your mother I, personally, doubt the "unshielded microwave" alone caused your mother's thyroid issues. As I said microwaves are less intense than visible light so if microwaves were causing her thyroid issues then light was too not to mention the microwaves in use in the atmosphere for many cell-phone networks.

So I really doubt the unshielded microwave caused her thyroid issue without an underlining condition.

Maybe. But you have to admit that when you turn on the microwave and your satellite tv scrambles its pretty alarming.

 

[Trekker4747]

Maybe. But you have to admit that when you turn on the microwave and your satellite tv scrambles its pretty alarming.

It's also pretty alarming when my AM radio gets scrambled when I drive under an overpass.

Your unsheilded microwave is in the next room. Your satellite is receiving a signal from an object 200 miles over the Earth's surface. The object in the next room just might cause a few problems. (Also microwaves are more powerful than TV signals and maybe even some satellite signals so that'd play a factor too.)

Radio Signals, TV Signals and Microwaves are all less powerful than light. So any damage they can do, light can do too and it can do it better.

Since light does absolutely no damage to our bodies unless it's really BRIGHT light shined into eyes I'm thinking the microwave isn't a big deal.

 

[Arrqh]

I find it insane that you prefer racial profiling to a simple scan.

El Al does not employ racial profiling. That would be pointless, any terrorist groups would simply use members who are of other races. Yes, they do exist. What they employ is behavioral profiling which is entirely different.

Its not dangerous. You'll notice that the imagery isn't penetrating like an x-ray. As a matter of fact, its 1/1000 of a dental x-ray in exposure.

radiation from one scan is about the same as a person would get from flying for about three minutes in an airplane at 30,000 feet

The difference is that with the backscatter scanners, your skin is absorbing the full portion of the radiation. In a normal x-ray, your bones which are much denser absorb most of it.

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/2010/11/fda-sidesteps-safety-concerns-over-tsa-body-scanners.ars

Unlike a medical X-ray, the TSA X-ray machines are a sci-fi fan's dream: they are lower-energy beams that can only penetrate clothing and the topmost layers of skin. This provides TSA agents with a view that would expose any explosives concealed by clothing. But according to the UCSF professors, the low-energy rays do a "Compton scatter" off tissue layers just under the skin, rather than the bone, possibly exposing some vital areas and leaving the tissues at risk of mutation.

When an X-ray Compton scatters, it doesn't shift an electron to a higher energy level; instead, it hits the electron hard enough to dislodge it from its atom. The authors note that this process is "likely breaking bonds," which could cause mutations in cells and raise the risk of cancer.

This doesn't mean that the backscatter scanners are dangerous, but the FDA has completely failed to address any independent concerns brought up. More study is needed.

 

[Subcommander R.]

Maybe. But you have to admit that when you turn on the microwave and your satellite tv scrambles its pretty alarming.

It's also pretty alarming when my AM radio gets scrambled when I drive under an overpass.

Your unsheilded microwave is in the next room. Your satellite is receiving a signal from an object 200 miles over the Earth's surface. The object in the next room just might cause a few problems. (Also microwaves are more powerful than TV signals and maybe even some satellite signals so that'd play a factor too.)

Radio Signals, TV Signals and Microwaves are all less powerful than light. So any damage they can do, light can do too and it can do it better.

Since light does absolutely no damage to our bodies unless it's really BRIGHT light shined into eyes I'm thinking the microwave isn't a big deal.

That doesn't mean we should all have unshielded microwaves. I'm not overly concerned about it, but I'm aware of it.

El Al does not employ racial profiling. That would be pointless, any terrorist groups would simply use members who are of other races. Yes, they do exist. What they employ is behavioral profiling which is entirely different.

The difference is that with the backscatter scanners, your skin is absorbing the full portion of the radiation. In a normal x-ray, your bones which are much denser absorb most of it.

http://arstechnica.com/science/news/...y-scanners.ars

Unlike a medical X-ray, the TSA X-ray machines are a sci-fi fan's dream: they are lower-energy beams that can only penetrate clothing and the topmost layers of skin. This provides TSA agents with a view that would expose any explosives concealed by clothing. But according to the UCSF professors, the low-energy rays do a "Compton scatter" off tissue layers just under the skin, rather than the bone, possibly exposing some vital areas and leaving the tissues at risk of mutation.

When an X-ray Compton scatters, it doesn't shift an electron to a higher energy level; instead, it hits the electron hard enough to dislodge it from its atom. The authors note that this process is "likely breaking bonds," which could cause mutations in cells and raise the risk of cancer.
This doesn't mean that the backscatter scanners are dangerous, but the FDA has completely failed to address any independent concerns brought up. More study is needed.

I doubt that very much, do you honestly think they'd give as much scrutiny to an electrician from Brooklyn as they would a student from Beirut?

Great news: if you don't think its safe they've provided an alternative for you.

 

[Trekker4747]

Maybe. But you have to admit that when you turn on the microwave and your satellite tv scrambles its pretty alarming.

It's also pretty alarming when my AM radio gets scrambled when I drive under an overpass.

Your unsheilded microwave is in the next room. Your satellite is receiving a signal from an object 200 miles over the Earth's surface. The object in the next room just might cause a few problems. (Also microwaves are more powerful than TV signals and maybe even some satellite signals so that'd play a factor too.)

Radio Signals, TV Signals and Microwaves are all less powerful than light. So any damage they can do, light can do too and it can do it better.

Since light does absolutely no damage to our bodies unless it's really BRIGHT light shined into eyes I'm thinking the microwave isn't a big deal.

That doesn't mean we should all have unshielded microwaves. I'm not overly concerned about it, but I'm aware of it.

Microwaves are shielded to both protect you, and objects outside the microwave, from being "cooked" along with the food in it and to also better concentrate the microwaves inside the oven so that they can do their job.

Microwaves are everywhere. Your cell-phone uses them. Hell, if your computer was built in the last 8-10 years it's using them (granted with almost no power behind them). Microwaves cannot cause harm. They're less intense than light! There's always a "might" and a "maybe" with stuff like this but microwaves are not ionizing radiation. They cannot damage cells or knock electrons off of those cells. Microwaves are virtually harmless. If microwaves could harm you then so can light. (And keep in mind sunburn and skin cancer isn't caused by light but it's caused by Alpha and Beta waves that come with that light from that big ball in the sky that you may think is made of "fire.")

 

[Subcommander R.]

It's also pretty alarming when my AM radio gets scrambled when I drive under an overpass.

Your unsheilded microwave is in the next room. Your satellite is receiving a signal from an object 200 miles over the Earth's surface. The object in the next room just might cause a few problems. (Also microwaves are more powerful than TV signals and maybe even some satellite signals so that'd play a factor too.)

Radio Signals, TV Signals and Microwaves are all less powerful than light. So any damage they can do, light can do too and it can do it better.

Since light does absolutely no damage to our bodies unless it's really BRIGHT light shined into eyes I'm thinking the microwave isn't a big deal.

That doesn't mean we should all have unshielded microwaves. I'm not overly concerned about it, but I'm aware of it.

Microwaves are shielded to both protect you, and objects outside the microwave, from being "cooked" along with the food in it and to also better concentrate the microwaves inside the oven so that they can do their job.

Microwaves are everywhere. Your cell-phone uses them. Hell, if your computer was built in the last 8-10 years it's using them (granted with almost no power behind them). Microwaves cannot cause harm. They're less intense than light! There's always a "might" and a "maybe" with stuff like this but microwaves are not ionizing radiation. They cannot damage cells or knock electrons off of those cells. Microwaves are virtually harmless. If microwaves could harm you then so can light. (And keep in mind sunburn and skin cancer isn't caused by light but it's caused by Alpha and Beta waves that come with that light from that big ball in the sky that you may think is made of "fire.")

Could you please try to be less pedantic?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

That doesn't mean we should all have unshielded microwaves. I'm not overly concerned about it, but I'm aware of it.

Microwaves are shielded to both protect you, and objects outside the microwave, from being "cooked" along with the food in it and to also better concentrate the microwaves inside the oven so that they can do their job.

Microwaves are everywhere. Your cell-phone uses them. Hell, if your computer was built in the last 8-10 years it's using them (granted with almost no power behind them). Microwaves cannot cause harm. They're less intense than light! There's always a "might" and a "maybe" with stuff like this but microwaves are not ionizing radiation. They cannot damage cells or knock electrons off of those cells. Microwaves are virtually harmless. If microwaves could harm you then so can light. (And keep in mind sunburn and skin cancer isn't caused by light but it's caused by Alpha and Beta waves that come with that light from that big ball in the sky that you may think is made of "fire.")

Could you please try to be less pedantic?

Go ahead and read it for science.

The folks running this circus are starting to back off some of their earlier statements about the necessity of all this. Politically speaking they'll have to make adjustments, probably after the holiday season.

 

[Trekker4747]

That doesn't mean we should all have unshielded microwaves. I'm not overly concerned about it, but I'm aware of it.

Microwaves are shielded to both protect you, and objects outside the microwave, from being "cooked" along with the food in it and to also better concentrate the microwaves inside the oven so that they can do their job.

Microwaves are everywhere. Your cell-phone uses them. Hell, if your computer was built in the last 8-10 years it's using them (granted with almost no power behind them). Microwaves cannot cause harm. They're less intense than light! There's always a "might" and a "maybe" with stuff like this but microwaves are not ionizing radiation. They cannot damage cells or knock electrons off of those cells. Microwaves are virtually harmless. If microwaves could harm you then so can light. (And keep in mind sunburn and skin cancer isn't caused by light but it's caused by Alpha and Beta waves that come with that light from that big ball in the sky that you may think is made of "fire.")

Could you please try to be less pedantic?

You're the one claiming that I should be as afraid of, or more so, my microwave than I should be of X-Rays. So I'm just trying to help you understand what I know about radiation and the EM spectrum. Microwaves are virtually harmless. They're more powerful than radiowaves, less powerful than light.

Light itself being vastly less powerful than X-Rays.

So if microwaves cause harm, than light does too.

 

[Subcommander R.]

Microwaves are shielded to both protect you, and objects outside the microwave, from being "cooked" along with the food in it and to also better concentrate the microwaves inside the oven so that they can do their job.

Microwaves are everywhere. Your cell-phone uses them. Hell, if your computer was built in the last 8-10 years it's using them (granted with almost no power behind them). Microwaves cannot cause harm. They're less intense than light! There's always a "might" and a "maybe" with stuff like this but microwaves are not ionizing radiation. They cannot damage cells or knock electrons off of those cells. Microwaves are virtually harmless. If microwaves could harm you then so can light. (And keep in mind sunburn and skin cancer isn't caused by light but it's caused by Alpha and Beta waves that come with that light from that big ball in the sky that you may think is made of "fire.")

Could you please try to be less pedantic?

You're the one claiming that I should be as afraid of, or more so, my microwave than I should be of X-Rays. So I'm just trying to help you understand what I know about radiation and the EM spectrum. Microwaves are virtually harmless. They're more powerful than radiowaves, less powerful than light.

Light itself being vastly less powerful than X-Rays.

So if microwaves cause harm, than light does too.

I'm fine with that. I'm saying that no type of radiation should be completely trivialized, which I'm sure you would agree with. But you seem to be pedantic. Take as an example your recent insinuation that I probably think the sun is 'fire.' If that just sort of came out unintentionally then I understand.

But you know, do whatever you want. I can't say I'm too invested in any of this. Have a nice day Trekker4747. And I mean that seriously.

 

[ALF]

So far I don't think people are angry enough.

Were they, we'd be looking at some sort of anarchistic revolt. National security has officially trumped the fourth amendment. Why then, are so many people content to 'take it in the ass', so to speak? And I'm trying not to be flippant: someone mentioned on the news today, "if the terrorists brought explosives in through body cavities, how soon until we get the glove treatment going through security?"

Can anyone build a widget that counts down to the first celebrity nude scanner image to be leaked?
Warhol said in the future, everyone will be famous for 15 minutes. Now, in the future everyone will be naked forever once it's online. This technology will be misused to the Nth degree.

If I had to choose, I'd rather be free than safe.

 

[Tom Hendricks]

Really, are you sure about that? http://gizmodo.com/5690749/these-are-the-first-100-leaked-body-scans

However far they want. As long as the airlines want security screening by the TSA then this is the way it will be.

If you're concerned about timing then plan your trip better and well in advance.

Everyone is grossly overreacting to this. They'll only do a pat-down if you refuse a body scan. So just take the fifteen seconds it takes and move on. Its not as bad as locker rooms from gym class and its a hell of a lot faster. So just cowboy up everyone.

Would you allow someone in that locker room to take a picture of you naked?

The difference is that the 'picture' is deleted immediately after viewing.

But if I had a guarantee that would be the case in the locker room I'd be fine with it. Gawk at my white and hairy beer gut if you wish.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

So far I don't think people are angry enough...If I had to choose, I'd rather be free than safe.

Exactly so - and in this case, we are not even exchanging one for the other.

 

[Chaos Descending]

And keep in mind sunburn and skin cancer isn't caused by light but it's caused by Alpha and Beta waves that come with that light from that big ball in the sky that you may think is made of "fire.")

Sorry to correct you, because you were doing so well. But, sunburn and skin cancer is not caused by "alpha and beta waves", but rather by UV-A and UV-B light. There is a BIG difference between an Alpha particle (which is an energetic bare helium nucleus), a Beta particle (which is an energetic free electron), and UV-A and UV-B light waves, which are Ultraviolet light. More energetic than visible light to be sure, but still light.