Is the Star Wars saga better with Episodes I to III or worse?

[Bishop76]

Indeed, RLM is an actual production company owned by Stoklasa. A company whose original works no one cares about.

A company that, if it weren't for the TPM review, no one would ever even heard about.

I really have nothing against Plinkett himself, or his reviews, to be honest. It's the people whom he helped see the light that annoy me. Many people started talking trash about the prequels only after talking trash about them became fashionable and cool.

Without the TPM review, I agree - no one would have stumbled across it. Maybe an errant Trek fan here or there for his (also good) reviews about the last 5 Trek films.

I don't think it's "fashionable or cool" to trash the prequels. I just think that most people outside of (and some of us inside) SW fandom have always thought they're trash and the Plinkett review was just a funny, entertaining outlet for those of us who feel that way about those films (though I am still a fan of a great many Star Wars things).

 

[JarodRussell]

The funniest thing is that Part 1/7 of the RLM Episode I review has 2.9 million views, but Part 2/7 has only 1.3 million.

RLM might be an interesting reviewer, with his 15 minutes of fame because he took the time to review the love/hate prequels, but that's about it then.

Damnit, I wanted to stay out of this thread.

 

[Bishop76]

Yeah, 1.3 million views is super disappointing...

 

[JarodRussell]

Yeah, 1.3 million views is super disappointing...

Which wasn't the actual point I was making. But as for your new point you're making: it's Youtube. A video about Sarah Palin's breath gets about 1.3 million views. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9kfcEga0lk

 

[Bishop76]

What, precisely, was your point then, other than the obvious baiting?

 

[suarezguy]

It was attachment that could lead to fear and the Dark Side.

To be detached from the suffering of others also sounds pretty evil to me.

Intense attachment is what was criticized, to where you wouldn't accept a natural death, would create more evil to try to prevent an evil or would just be too unobjective in a matter, such as when Anakin preferred helping Padme over pursuing Dooku.

What never gets mentioned is that, the way things are set up, practically nobody can be trusted to use the Force. PT Anakin is obviously a headcase and should have been booted out of the Jedi Order immediately. But the other Jedi I've seen show some emotion. Why is it okay for them to use the Force?

It probably comes from Anakin starting his training much later than usual and knowing his potential "Chosen One" status, which deprives the character of much agency and responsibility, but that's the intention as the 10 years between TPM and AotC were largely skipped over.

if they have no attachments, what are they fighting for? They wouldn't care if the resident political system were an Empire or a Republic. Such matters are beneath their notice.

They supported democracy and considered it, and upholding it, to be a part of justice.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Intense attachment is what was criticized, to where you wouldn't accept a natural death, would create more evil to try to prevent an evil or would just be too unobjective in a matter, such as when Anakin preferred helping Padme over pursuing Dooku.

So caring about a person "naturally" dying at a very young age is somehow bad? I'd be upset at a love one dying at the age of 105! Padme was very young and there wasn't any way for her to die naturally at her age. And death in childbirth is the stupidest option they could have come up with. A society with FTL drive and sentient AI's still has to worry about death in childbirth? Bullshit!

The issue of attachment interfering with the Jedi's ability to be effective at their jobs is a valid point - it would be better if they were all cold-hearted in their pursuit of military victory. But that isn't a moral issue per se. They would be more effective if, for instance, they were unattached enough to their fellow beings that they would torture prisoners for information without hesitation, or wipe out a planet of innocent people to keep it from being used by the enemy as a base of operations. All that means is that emotions, good or bad, get in the way of a soldier's effectiveness.

The Sith are effective precisely because they are unattached to anything but themselves - selfishness is the source of their power because they don't have to worry about goals other than getting ever more power. So the Sith and Jedi actually agree about the no-attachments rule, which makes me think it's not a valid point of distinction but just a cultural artifact that arose because of military necessity.

It probably comes from Anakin starting his training much later than usual and knowing his potential "Chosen One" status, which deprives the character of much agency and responsibility, but that's the intention as the 10 years between TPM and AotC were largely skipped over.

You're explaining why the writing was bad, but explaining it doesn't make it less bad.

They supported democracy and considered it, and upholding it, to be a part of justice.

Why are they attached to democracy and justice? Is it okay to be attached to abstract concepts but not to people? Why?

 

[Kirkman1987]

I liked RLM's reviews very much. I thought they were very well put together.

All I have to say is that I was 12 when Phantom Menace came out. I was at that time a huge Star Wars nut, with the action figures, VHS tapes, and Star Wars kids magazine to prove it. I didn't have access to the internet at the time, so I went in almost completely unspoiled.

I have never been so disappointed at a film in my life. Even as a kid, 5-10 minutes into the movie I realized something was wrong. By the end of the movie I was crushed.

 

[Mach5]

The funniest thing is that Part 1/7 of the RLM Episode I review has 2.9 million views, but Part 2/7 has only 1.3 million.

Which would mean that more than a half of viewers gave up after seeing less than 15% of the whole thing.

While we're at it, part 7 is just short of 959 000 views, which means only a third of the viewers bothered to watch all the way through.

I don't think it's "fashionable or cool" to trash the prequels. I just think that most people outside of (and some of us inside) SW fandom have always thought they're trash

Having read quite a few threads in my time, and having spoken to quite a few people too, I can testify that A LOT of them started trashing the prequels only after they watched RLM's reviews.

Some even say they used to like these movies, but that the reviews "opened their eyes" and stuff. And I don't think highly of the people who need to be told what to like or hate. Make up your own damn mind.

 

[Bishop76]

While we're at it, part 7 is just short of 959 000 views, which means only a third of the viewers bothered to watch all the way through.

Well, I think a lot of people actually watch it on his website which hosts the whole thing in one unbroken part on blip.tv - just a bit easier to watch than the 7 parter on youtube.

I don't think it's "fashionable or cool" to trash the prequels. I just think that most people outside of (and some of us inside) SW fandom have always thought they're trash

Having read quite a few threads in my time, and having spoken to quite a few people too, I can testify that A LOT of them started trashing the prequels only after they watched RLM's reviews.

Some even say they used to like these movies, but that the reviews "opened their eyes" and stuff. And I don't think highly of the people who need to be told what to like or hate. Make up your own damn mind.

I'm sure there were some who started hating on them after this, but being 23 at the time TPM came out, I also can very clearly remember not a whole hell of a lot of people liking any of these things when they first dropped. The only one to receive even a tepid review was the 3rd one and most people kind of backed off of that one after a couple months.

I agree that I respect people who have their own opinions rather than having to be told what to think, I just think you're vastly overestimating the initial reception these films had.

 

[JarodRussell]

What, precisely, was your point then, other than the obvious baiting?

The funniest thing is that Part 1/7 of the RLM Episode I review has 2.9 million views, but Part 2/7 has only 1.3 million.

Which would mean that more than a half of viewers gave up after seeing less than 15% of the whole thing.

I agree that I respect people who have their own opinions rather than having to be told what to think, I just think you're vastly overestimating the initial reception these films had.

Most of the top critics didn't like it, but over 900 million worldwide against a 90-115 million budget? I'd say that's a pretty good reception.

 

[Tulin]

Bishop - You'd probably like the Australian fan film, "The Fandom Menace". It is about a group of SW fans in a club JUST before and JUST after TPM came out. There is this MASSIVE build up, as there was back then and then.....well.....the film shows the looks on their faces as they emerge from the cinema after the Sydney premiere of TPM.

You have never seen SO MANY overweight, fat jouled thirty year old men look SO depressed. They are actually IN SHOCK for days after as the disappointment turns into open anger and hostility. Several of them sell whole toy collections and disavow themselves as SW fans. As a psychological observation it is all pretty fascinating.

Personally, I think those that disavowed themselves as fans and gave up then were the lucky ones.


The true horror was yet to come!

 

[JarodRussell]

Bishop - You'd probably like the Australian fan film, "The Fandom Menace". It is about a group of SW fans in a club JUST before and JUST after TPM came out. There is this MASSIVE build up, as there was back then and then.....well.....the film shows the looks on their faces as they emerge from the cinema after the Sydney premiere of TPM.

You have never seen SO MANY overweight, fat jouled thirty year old men look SO depressed. They are actually IN SHOCK for days after as the disappointment turns into open anger and hostility. Several of them sell whole toy collections and disavow themselves as SW fans. As a psychological observation it is all pretty fascinating.

Personally, I think those that disavowed themselves as fans and gave up then were the lucky ones.


The true horror was yet to come!

And yet they've probably seen it at least twice and then watched Episode II and III.

TPM: 900 million worldwide
AotC: 650 million (okay, there they lost some)
RotS: 850 million (oh no, they are back)

Faired at least better than RLM review parts.

 

[RAMA]

I'd have to say worse since they lower the perception of the series as a whole.

RAMA

 

[Bishop76]

What, precisely, was your point then, other than the obvious baiting?

Which would mean that more than a half of viewers gave up after seeing less than 15% of the whole thing.

I agree that I respect people who have their own opinions rather than having to be told what to think, I just think you're vastly overestimating the initial reception these films had.

Most of the top critics didn't like it, but over 900 million worldwide against a 90-115 million budget? I'd say that's a pretty good reception.

You really want to quote box office returns as the "reception" a movie gets or as some sign of high quality? I don't think you know what the word means, really, but as another example Transformers 2 made over 800 million worldwide...

And comparing RLM against Lucas and the Star Wars franchise? Really? You don't see a little disparity between the two...

 

[Mach5]

I'd have to say worse since they lower the perception of the series as a whole.

Whose perception? I don't think that people who can't see that big, fat, glowing line that separates the OT from everything else carrying the name "Star Wars" really care about SW. I doubt these people burden themselves with all this shit.

I believe that to a person who truly loves Star Wars, no prequel, sequel, cartoon, comic or novel can take away its original value and allure.

You really want to quote box office returns as the "reception" a movie gets or as some sign of high quality?

With all due respect, the fact that the audience never gave up on the prequels counts for something. Had the people really really hated Episodes I and II, then Episode III wouldn't have been so successful, IMO.

 

[Set Harth]

Well, that's probably because he's not a failed filmmaker.

Actually, he is - if one uses the commonly understood definition of "failed filmmaker" that was in effect until, say, yesterday.

He's an amateur filmmaker who's had gobs of internet success with his review films.

Which doesn't make him any less of a failed filmmaker:

Indeed, RLM is an actual production company owned by Stoklasa. A company whose original works no one cares about.

Bitching about the PT is not a way to claim success in one's chosen field, when that success does not in fact exist.

 

[Bishop76]

Bishop - You'd probably like the Australian fan film, "The Fandom Menace". It is about a group of SW fans in a club JUST before and JUST after TPM came out. There is this MASSIVE build up, as there was back then and then.....well.....the film shows the looks on their faces as they emerge from the cinema after the Sydney premiere of TPM.

You have never seen SO MANY overweight, fat jouled thirty year old men look SO depressed. They are actually IN SHOCK for days after as the disappointment turns into open anger and hostility. Several of them sell whole toy collections and disavow themselves as SW fans. As a psychological observation it is all pretty fascinating.

Personally, I think those that disavowed themselves as fans and gave up then were the lucky ones.


The true horror was yet to come!

Sounds excellent - I'll have to look that up - was that distributed by anyone or is that available from a streaming site?

I'd have to say worse since they lower the perception of the series as a whole.

Whose perception? I don't think that people who can't see that big, fat, glowing line that separates the OT from everything else carrying the name "Star Wars" really care about SW. I doubt these people burden themselves with all this shit.

I believe that to a person who truly loves Star Wars, no prequel, sequel, cartoon, comic or novel can take away its original value and allure.

You really want to quote box office returns as the "reception" a movie gets or as some sign of high quality?

With all due respect, the fact that the audience never gave up on the prequels counts for something. Had the people really really hated Episodes I and II, then Episode III wouldn't have been so successful, IMO.

I don't think that speaks to their quality so much as peoples' hopes. I know I still went to see the other two stinkers even after being burned by episode 1. And a lot of that revenue is the fanboys who went to see these films 50 times in the theater. I'm not saying that's what accounts for it all, but it's a big chunk. And if they made an episode 7, I'd go to see it - because I want there to be another good Star Wars movie. Seeing a sequel is not an indication that you thought the predecessor was quality.

 

[Bishop76]

Well, that's probably because he's not a failed filmmaker.

Actually, he is - if you use the commonly understood definition of "failed filmmaker" that was in effect until, say, yesterday.

He's an amateur filmmaker who's had gobs of internet success with his review films.

Which doesn't make him any less of a failed filmmaker:

I know you're just baiting/trolling me at this point, but really - how has he failed? By whose standards?

 

[JarodRussell]

Well, that's probably because he's not a failed filmmaker.

Actually, he is - if you use the commonly understood definition of "failed filmmaker" that was in effect until, say, yesterday.

He's an amateur filmmaker who's had gobs of internet success with his review films.

Which doesn't make him any less of a failed filmmaker:

I know you're just baiting/trolling me at this point, but really - how has he failed? By whose standards?

He is neither baiting nor trolling. What's your definition of a filmmaker? Maybe then we can clarify things. Doing a (successful/failed) review about a movie doesn't turn you into a (successful/failed) filmmaker.