Is the Star Wars saga better with Episodes I to III or worse?

[DWF]

The prequels seem to have jettisoned this kind of feel. As good as the CGI is, the settings lacked the texture and the life that made these fantastical films feel real.

Yeah, whether it was intentional or not, the fact Lucas had to rely so much on real locations for the original movies did a LOT to make those worlds feel like real, tangible places.

Half of what made those movies so magical was the way you could easily imagine yourself with Luke under the searing heat of Tattoine, or trudging through the freezing snow of Hoth.

I never felt that with any of the new worlds in the prequels. They were so fantastical and overdesigned and overpopulated that I couldn't identify with any of it.

They still filmed in real locations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Episode_I:_The_Phantom_Menace#Filming

Filming began on June 26, 1997 and ended on September 30 of that year, primarily taking place at Leavesden Film Studios in England, with additional location shooting in the Tunisian desert for the Tatooine scenes and the Italian Caserta Palace for the Theed City Naboo Palace interior. The city of Mos Espa was built in the desert outside Tozeur. On the night following the third day of shooting in Tozeur, an unexpected sandstorm destroyed many sets and props. With a quick rescheduling to allow for repairs, production was able to leave Tunisia on the exact day originally planned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars_Episode_II:_Attack_of_the_Clones#Filming

Principal photography occurred between June 26, 2000 and September 20, 2000 at 20th Century Fox Studios in Australia. Location shooting took place in the Tunisian desert, at the Plaza de España in Seville, Spain, in Italy at the Villa del Balbianello on Lake Como, and in the former royal Palace of Case.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I know they used real locations, but somehow they seemed less real, less gritty, less tangible. It's all about what the story was about.

 

[JarodRussell]

I know they used real locations, but somehow they seemed less real, less gritty, less tangible.

Ah, your imagination stands in your way.

It's also a fact that The Phantom Menace used more physical model shots than the entire original trilogy combined. Large parts of Naboo city, the space ships, Mos Eisley, the pod race arena, close ups of Coruscant buildings, etc... are all studio models, and not CG. And that trend continued in Episode II and III. The Mustafar lava environment for instance, it was a giant model.

 

[TheBrew]

I wouldn't go as far as to proclaim the score that Williams wrote to be a mess (there are a few memorable tracks, including the Across the Universe theme which you mention), but it was certainly eviscerated in editing. And even though I like it (on CD), I'll be the first to admit that it is the weakest score of the series.

Agreed, though Across the Stars sounds too much like the main theme from 'Hook' that I can't even enjoy it that much. Weakest score by far.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I know they used real locations, but somehow they seemed less real, less gritty, less tangible.

Ah, your imagination stands in your way.

It's also a fact that The Phantom Menace used more physical model shots than the entire original trilogy combined. Large parts of Naboo city, the space ships, Mos Eisley, the pod race arena, close ups of Coruscant buildings, etc... are all studio models, and not CG. And that trend continued in Episode II and III. The Mustafar lava environment for instance, it was a giant model.

please, just friggin stop!

I know that. I watched the documentaries. I love the documentaries.'

I know it wasn't all CG. Honestly I wouldn't have a problem even if it was all CG.

I'm talking about a combination of the writing mixed with what is on screen. My example about the alien informant at docking bay 94 is one that brings an image to my mind of a city that lives and breathes, a city that has alleyways and dark corners, secret informants and interesting stories to tell. I mean, they even write a book about all the aliens in the cantina, part of me think that's absurd but another part of me can understand it. The place, after all, felt real, alive, and ripe with untold stories.

In many ways, I think the closest the new films have gotten to a truly iteresting place like that is Utapau. So, it's not just about models and real locations. It's how interesting it is. Utapaau is an intersting place, I got the feeling that their government are pacifists who don't particularly like the fact that their planet has become a battke ground. I liked the idea of the sinkholes and building cities within them. I honestly felt some vertigo after my first few viewings in some of the amazing sequences that took place along the walls of the sinkholes.

But it still doesn't quite reach what I am talking about.

 

[issreliant]

As a fan of the OT, I have to say i liked the prequels, yes there were some mis-steps,(Jar-Jar, the love scenes in AOTC) but all in all they were great movies. The problem i see is that people forget that star wars are movies for kids primarly. i was a kid when i saw the OT, and i loved them, i didnt discect every scene, i didnt think "hey they should have done this diffrently" i just watch them and enjoyed the story. while watching the PT, i tried to put myself in the mindset of that young boy i was when i experienced the OT. My young nephews, who are now the age i was when i saw the OT, love the PT, and the clone wars series. So the bottom line is that i have fun when i watch the PT and the clone wars, and isnt that the point?

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

The problem i see is that people forget that star wars are movies for kids primarly.

I couldn't disagree more. they are for everyone.
they didn't talk down adults. And they weren't (or shouldn't be) tailored to tykes.

Just watch Plinkett's Episode Two review for comments about kids and Star Wars!

ERRG!

 

[davejames]

I think, in terms of screen-time, more time is spent in Mos Espa than Mos Eisley. Guess which one is more memorable?

Yeah, the thing you really notice when watching the OT and PT back to back, is just how sparse and empty so many of the locations in the OT really were. Which really added to the believability. Mos Eisley (at least the pre-special edition version) is exactly what you would expect if you were to walk through a real, broken-down spaceport on a backwater planet.

But in pretty much every location in the PT, Lucas felt the need to cram so many little creatures and robots and doodads into every frame-- and basically have every planet be as busy and overpopulated as Coruscant-- that that mythic grandeur was completely lost.

In the end, these just didn't feel like real places at ALL.

 

[FluffyUnbound]

I think, in terms of screen-time, more time is spent in Mos Espa than Mos Eisley. Guess which one is more memorable?

Yeah, the thing you really notice when watching the OT and PT back to back, is just how sparse and empty so many of the locations in the OT really were. Which really added to the believability. Mos Eisley (at least the pre-special edition version) is exactly what you would expect if you were to walk through a real, broken-down spaceport on a backwater planet.

But in pretty much every location in the PT, Lucas felt the need to cram so many little creatures and robots and doodads into every frame-- and basically have every planet be as busy and overpopulated as Coruscant-- that that mythic grandeur was completely lost.

In the end, these just didn't feel like real places at ALL.

The OT sets are both more real-looking and more iconic as a result of their relative simplicity and austerity compared to the PT.

ANH and ESB are amazing achievements in linking production design to story and theme. Vader, the Storm Troopers, Kenobi's costume, Han Solo's costume, the desert environment of Tatooine, the Hoth environment, the Dagobah environment, the Jawas and their vehicle, Mos Eisley, the Death Star, the trash compactor - the story is told visually so well that you almost don't need sound to follow it. You can almost follow it just by looking at the toys.

Can you follow the story line of TPM by looking at the production design? Nope. Most people can't follow it with the sound on, let alone off.

 

[exodus]

I think, in terms of screen-time, more time is spent in Mos Espa than Mos Eisley. Guess which one is more memorable?

Yeah, the thing you really notice when watching the OT and PT back to back, is just how sparse and empty so many of the locations in the OT really were. Which really added to the believability. Mos Eisley (at least the pre-special edition version) is exactly what you would expect if you were to walk through a real, broken-down spaceport on a backwater planet.

But in pretty much every location in the PT, Lucas felt the need to cram so many little creatures and robots and doodads into every frame-- and basically have every planet be as busy and overpopulated as Coruscant-- that that mythic grandeur was completely lost.

In the end, these just didn't feel like real places at ALL.

I disagree.
I feel by over populating places, he gave a place like Corusant a very real feel. Couracant captures the hussle & bussle I see everyday in NYC and well a the majestic grandeur of it's skyscrapers. The places we saw in PT, were mostly cities(so they should be full of beings) while what we saw in OT were out of the way places folks were looking to hide, thus a smaller population.(If you could go & live on Naboo, Corusant or Bespin, why would you want to live in a hell hole like Tatooine?) If Bespin is a city of commerce, then the hallways should have been full of all types of people & creatures. Bespin had to be the only place of labor in all 6 Star Wars that nearly devoid of Droids. That's unrealistic, especially in the SW universe.

 

[JarodRussell]

I think, in terms of screen-time, more time is spent in Mos Espa than Mos Eisley. Guess which one is more memorable?

Yeah, the thing you really notice when watching the OT and PT back to back, is just how sparse and empty so many of the locations in the OT really were. Which really added to the believability. Mos Eisley (at least the pre-special edition version) is exactly what you would expect if you were to walk through a real, broken-down spaceport on a backwater planet.

But in pretty much every location in the PT, Lucas felt the need to cram so many little creatures and robots and doodads into every frame-- and basically have every planet be as busy and overpopulated as Coruscant-- that that mythic grandeur was completely lost.

In the end, these just didn't feel like real places at ALL.

The OT sets are both more real-looking and more iconic as a result of their relative simplicity and austerity compared to the PT.

ANH and ESB are amazing achievements in linking production design to story and theme. Vader, the Storm Troopers, Kenobi's costume, Han Solo's costume, the desert environment of Tatooine, the Hoth environment, the Dagobah environment, the Jawas and their vehicle, Mos Eisley, the Death Star, the trash compactor - the story is told visually so well that you almost don't need sound to follow it. You can almost follow it just by looking at the toys.

Can you follow the story line of TPM by looking at the production design? Nope. Most people can't follow it with the sound on, let alone off.

Not to forget about the fact that it already had more than 30 years time to cement itself into your memories. Just like with TOS, people are looking at the OT with very rose colored glasses.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I've heard that argument, and it works to a point. But in the end, if the story and places are memorable than they are. Mos Espa, as depicted could have been interesting, if the scenes that took place there were interesting and if they felt to have come organically from the story.

I always think about the cantina scene and how it is so similar to almost any scene early in a fantasy story. In role-playing games, most adventurers wind up in the local tavern. The tavern's environment is described and gives the players their first sense, their first taste, to the diversity of the world. Even Lord of The rings had them meet Strider at the Prancing Pony. It all felt organic, and the detail in these taverns really add to the detail of the story.

Not just taverns, every setting adds to the feel, if there is good writing.

What I loved about the original trilogy was how we were never treated to the really good parts of the SW galaxy. Think about it; Cloud City was arguably one of the most amazing places ever put on screen at the time, a floating city in the clouds, with its pristine appearance. Yet, how was it treated by the characters. According to Lando, it was an operation not just too small for The Empire to really care about, but it was even too small for the Mining Guilds (likely much smaller than the Empire) to really notice. Yet, to us, it is the grandest city we've ever seen. The carbon freezing chamber was an amazing set, featuring an awesome foreboding sense to it, with great lighting. What does Vader say about this place: "this facility is crude!"

 

[exodus]

I've heard that argument, and it works to a point. But in the end, if the story and places are memorable than they are. Mos Espa, as depicted could have been interesting, if the scenes that took place there were interesting and if they felt to have come organically from the story.

I always think about the cantina scene and how it is so similar to almost any scene early in a fantasy story. In role-playing games, most adventurers wind up in the local tavern. The tavern's environment is described and gives the players their first sense, their first taste, to the diversity of the world. Even Lord of The rings had them meet Strider at the Prancing Pony. It all felt organic, and the detail in these taverns really add to the detail of the story.

Not just taverns, every setting adds to the feel, if there is good writing.

What I loved about the original trilogy was how we were never treated to the really good parts of the SW galaxy. Think about it; Cloud City was arguably one of the most amazing places ever put on screen at the time, a floating city in the clouds, with its pristine appearance. Yet, how was it treated by the characters. According to Lando, it was an operation not just too small for The Empire to really care about, but it was even too small for the Mining Guilds (likely much smaller than the Empire) to really notice. Yet, to us, it is the grandest city we've ever seen. The carbon freezing chamber was an amazing set, featuring an awesome foreboding sense to it, with great lighting. What does Vader say about this place: "this facility is crude!"

Didn't Lando also compare Leia's beauty to that of the city in the clouds? Han said to Lando that he really "Stepped Up."
So I got the impression that Bespin was something of great beauty to them too.
Lando just was explaining it was a small operation, not that the city was in of itself wasn't amazing.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Of course lando liked his own city.

The point ?I'm making is the universe of SW felt bigger than what we saw, because of the references. Because these places were so amazing to begin with, the universe felt really awesome.

I like how each of three films opened withe arrowhead shape of a star destroyer. These things are always around, always imposing. Somehow it just added to the scope, seeing those ships.

 

[davejames]

I disagree.
I feel by over populating places, he gave a place like Corusant a very real feel. Couracant captures the hussle & bussle I see everyday in NYC and well a the majestic grandeur of it's skyscrapers. The places we saw in PT, were mostly cities(so they should be full of beings) while what we saw in OT were out of the way places folks were looking to hide, thus a smaller population.(If you could go & live on Naboo, Corusant or Bespin, why would you want to live in a hell hole like Tatooine?) If Bespin is a city of commerce, then the hallways should have been full of all types of people & creatures. Bespin had to be the only place of labor in all 6 Star Wars that nearly devoid of Droids. That's unrealistic, especially in the SW universe.

I had no real problem with Coruscant. That was one place where it felt appropriate to see a lot of busy, hectic commotion on screen. But then Lucas had Mos Espa crowded with little scurrying creatures and droids and ships flying around, and then pretty much every planet AFTER that. It all looked so posed and contrived.

 

[FluffyUnbound]

Yeah, the thing you really notice when watching the OT and PT back to back, is just how sparse and empty so many of the locations in the OT really were. Which really added to the believability. Mos Eisley (at least the pre-special edition version) is exactly what you would expect if you were to walk through a real, broken-down spaceport on a backwater planet.

But in pretty much every location in the PT, Lucas felt the need to cram so many little creatures and robots and doodads into every frame-- and basically have every planet be as busy and overpopulated as Coruscant-- that that mythic grandeur was completely lost.

In the end, these just didn't feel like real places at ALL.

The OT sets are both more real-looking and more iconic as a result of their relative simplicity and austerity compared to the PT.

ANH and ESB are amazing achievements in linking production design to story and theme. Vader, the Storm Troopers, Kenobi's costume, Han Solo's costume, the desert environment of Tatooine, the Hoth environment, the Dagobah environment, the Jawas and their vehicle, Mos Eisley, the Death Star, the trash compactor - the story is told visually so well that you almost don't need sound to follow it. You can almost follow it just by looking at the toys.

Can you follow the story line of TPM by looking at the production design? Nope. Most people can't follow it with the sound on, let alone off.

Not to forget about the fact that it already had more than 30 years time to cement itself into your memories. Just like with TOS, people are looking at the OT with very rose colored glasses.

I think that the OT follows basic principles of design better than the PT, memories or no memories.

Vader is all black. There are a couple of very minor dials and doodads on his chest, just enough to explain the breathing sound effect. Compare that to the somewhat overwrought and baroque design of General Grievous, and there's a fundamental art direction reason why Vader is more memorable.

The stormtrooper uniforms in the OT are all white and featureless. In the PT they are much more detailed and elaborate. Which scene is more iconic and memorable? The first sight of the stormtroopers in ANH, or the first sight of the clone troopers in AOTC?

 

[JarodRussell]

I've heard that argument, and it works to a point. But in the end, if the story and places are memorable than they are. Mos Espa, as depicted could have been interesting, if the scenes that took place there were interesting and if they felt to have come organically from the story.

I always think about the cantina scene and how it is so similar to almost any scene early in a fantasy story. In role-playing games, most adventurers wind up in the local tavern. The tavern's environment is described and gives the players their first sense, their first taste, to the diversity of the world. Even Lord of The rings had them meet Strider at the Prancing Pony. It all felt organic, and the detail in these taverns really add to the detail of the story.

Not just taverns, every setting adds to the feel, if there is good writing.

What I loved about the original trilogy was how we were never treated to the really good parts of the SW galaxy. Think about it; Cloud City was arguably one of the most amazing places ever put on screen at the time, a floating city in the clouds, with its pristine appearance. Yet, how was it treated by the characters. According to Lando, it was an operation not just too small for The Empire to really care about, but it was even too small for the Mining Guilds (likely much smaller than the Empire) to really notice. Yet, to us, it is the grandest city we've ever seen. The carbon freezing chamber was an amazing set, featuring an awesome foreboding sense to it, with great lighting. What does Vader say about this place: "this facility is crude!"

Many young people who saw Episode I, II, III first and the OT second think exactly the other way round. It's really just a question of the first impression.

 

[davejames]

Many young people who saw Episode I, II, III first and the OT second think exactly the other way round. It's really just a question of the first impression.

Lucas may have been shrewd enough to cater his prequels to the ADD/videogame generation-- and kids who were simply too young to know any better-- but that still doesn't make them good decisions.

These same kids probably also find a lot of classic, iconic movies from the 60s and 70s to be slow and boring. Should we adjust our opinions of them too?

 

[DWF]

Many young people who saw Episode I, II, III first and the OT second think exactly the other way round. It's really just a question of the first impression.

Lucas may have been shrewd enough to cater his prequels to the ADD/videogame generation-- and kids who were simply too young to know any better-- but that still doesn't make them good decisions.

These same kids probably also find a lot of classic, iconic movies from the 60s and 70s to be slow and boring. Should we adjust our opinions of them too?

Those same kids made Titanic and the Harry Potter movies hits and those aren't exactly fast paced action packed movies.

 

[exodus]

I disagree.
I feel by over populating places, he gave a place like Corusant a very real feel. Couracant captures the hussle & bussle I see everyday in NYC and well a the majestic grandeur of it's skyscrapers. The places we saw in PT, were mostly cities(so they should be full of beings) while what we saw in OT were out of the way places folks were looking to hide, thus a smaller population.(If you could go & live on Naboo, Corusant or Bespin, why would you want to live in a hell hole like Tatooine?) If Bespin is a city of commerce, then the hallways should have been full of all types of people & creatures. Bespin had to be the only place of labor in all 6 Star Wars that nearly devoid of Droids. That's unrealistic, especially in the SW universe.

I had no real problem with Coruscant. That was one place where it felt appropriate to see a lot of busy, hectic commotion on screen. But then Lucas had Mos Espa crowded with little scurrying creatures and droids and ships flying around, and then pretty much every planet AFTER that. It all looked so posed and contrived.

Of course it was, that was still during open trade under the Trade Federation. The Empire killed off Nute Gunray and seized all control of trade routes. All those beings you see in the prequels aren't in the OT because they're all out of business. The Hutts( and a few others like Talon Karde) control all other trade thru smuggling. Most of all you see in Mos Eisely are now criminals or those looking to hide from the Empire. It's dangerous to go to Tattooine now. Lucas it trying to show us life before the Empire and all we lost due to it. Tattooine when from a thriving trade route, to a ghetto.