Is the Prime Directive a bad idea, even in concept?

[T'Girl]

it also appears to be the only episode to explicitly claim that civilians don't have to obey the PD

As you noted, Angel One was hardly a primitive planet other than it's lack of warp drive. So perhaps in applying a civilian version of the Prime Directive, the sociological and technological level of the native population comes into play. There are "degrees" of the Prime Directive, and not simply all or nothing. The crew of the freighter, given their shipwreak/castaway status, may have been allowed to interact with the natives for their own survival. But not have the local Homo Erectus build temples to them, they would be require to represent themselves perhaps just as strangers.

But if they landed/crashed on a planet with our current level, hiding who and what they were might not be required under the civilian PD.

A culture with 24th century equivalent technology, but still lacking a warp drive could be openly contacted and traded with.

Duck-blind missions are the safest way to gain information about a pre-warp civilization. Direct interaction is far more dangerous so the only other option is to study them from orbit or not at all.

The safest debating, but obviously not the best or most accurate. Picard learned things about the Baku in only a few minute sitting across from Anij in conversation, that a duck-blind never would have learned. By sitting in a duck-blind you are isolated from the people you wish to learn about, you're prevented from immersing yourself in their culture, history and day to day life.

Kirk more often than not, just walked up to people on various planets, introduced himself, and started talking to them ... the ideal method.

Who Watches The Watchers or The Communicator it ended in a serious mess

Much of the trouble with The Communicator was the result off the natives realizing that they were being surreptitiously spied upon. They rightly resented this.

 

[Timo]

Kirk more often than not, just walked up to people on various planets, introduced himself, and started talking to them ... the ideal method.

Which does suggest that the PD does not really concern itself with technology levels. We have never heard of a wording that would include technology criteria: certainly the "we don't talk to no-warpers" interpretation is pure fanfic. Although it's plausible speculation, with some arguably supporting evidence. Such as the concern our heroes show when they learn of Captain Tracey telling the natives about phasers in "Omega Glory". Telling the natives about advanced technology may be frowned upon in general. But then again, Kirk himself apparently told Tyree about phasers in the backstory of "A Private Little War", without a force majeure such as that of Tracey.

If there's a civilian set of rules on contact, this has never been heard to include technology criteria, either. The only time a civilian was accused, "Bread and Circuses", dealt with said civilian interfering in the affairs of the society - to wit, making himself a political strongman (even if behind the curtains, he was but a puppet). And this civilian did this without exploiting any UFP supertechnology; the castaways of "Angel One" were doing the very same thing, subverting the local society through simple rhetoric and sheer presence.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

Kirk more often than not, just walked up to people on various planets, introduced himself, and started talking to them ... the ideal method.

Which does suggest that the PD does not really concern itself with technology levels. We have never heard of a wording that would include technology criteria: certainly the "we don't talk to no-warpers" interpretation is pure fanfic. Although it's plausible speculation, with some arguably supporting evidence. Such as the concern our heroes show when they learn of Captain Tracey telling the natives about phasers in "Omega Glory". Telling the natives about advanced technology may be frowned upon in general. But then again, Kirk himself apparently told Tyree about phasers in the backstory of "A Private Little War", without a force majeure such as that of Tracey.

If there's a civilian set of rules on contact, this has never been heard to include technology criteria, either. The only time a civilian was accused, "Bread and Circuses", dealt with said civilian interfering in the affairs of the society - to wit, making himself a political strongman (even if behind the curtains, he was but a puppet). And this civilian did this without exploiting any UFP supertechnology; the castaways of "Angel One" were doing the very same thing, subverting the local society through simple rhetoric and sheer presence.

Timo Saloniemi

isn't the "warp drive standard" also heavily supported by Star Trek: First Contact?

 

[T'Girl]

isn't the "warp drive standard" also heavily supported by Star Trek: First Contact?

What I got from FC was that the Vulcan were not contacting Earth because they weren't interested in us (too primitive), and not that they were restricted from doing so. When suddenly we engaged in a warp flight, we became more interesting, and they tracked the warp signature back to Zephran's camp.

 

[sonak]

isn't the "warp drive standard" also heavily supported by Star Trek: First Contact?

What I got from FC was that the Vulcan were not contacting Earth because they weren't interested in us (too primitive), and not that they were restricted from doing so. When suddenly we engaged in a warp flight, we became more interesting, and they tracked the warp signature back to Zephran's camp.

well right, not so much "restricted," as it's their policy not to contact pre-warp cultures. As Vulcans were such an early and huge influence on the UFP, it's logical to assume that their standard for contact might make it to other races as well.

 

[Timo]

Where would it be stated that their policy would be not to contact pre-warp cultures due to their being pre-warp?

Vulcans like to stay away from some cultures, while they extensively meddle with others. But the distinguishing criteria aren't clear. T'Pol does not object to contacting the warp-incapable Valakians in "Dear Doctor"; instead, she specifically says that since cultural contamination by other, warp-capable species has already taken place, Valakians are free game despite remaining warp-incapable.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[TiberiusMaximus]

That actually makes sense. From the Vulcan point of view, it's quite logical. They are reluctant to make first contact with pre-warp cultures, but once someone else has already broken that barrier (presumably without corrupting the pre-warps beyond recovery) there's no logic in continuing to avoid them.

As I see it, the Prime Directive is meant to help prevent the Federation from exploiting and assuming casual control over lesser cultures, in addition to causing disruptive changes to the course of their development. But I think a clause to deal with catastrophes is necessary, that a world in need of help to stave off extinction or mass destruction should be helped, with the express intent to keep the benefaction from the Federation as hidden as possible. If exposed without just cause or excuse, then there would be punitive ramifications.

That's essentially the same as my interpretation.

The warp-drive restriction may seem to be an arbitrary line, and I agree that it's not always an ideal benchmark. But no matter where you draw the line, people are going to ask "Why can't the line be set further back?" You've got to draw the line somewhere.

 

[Timo]

...It's just that we have no evidence that either the Feds or the preceding Vulcan civilization would draw the line at warp capacity. All we know is that these parties are willing and (as per the episode "First Contact") even eager to contact other civilizations on the verge of them making interstellar contact one way or another, but that they also contact really primitive (pre-industrialized or pre-spaceflight) cultures and establish a dialogue with individuals or groups if not with governments. Are we forced to speculate that in each separate occasion of contact with primitives, our heroes have solid knowledge of earlier contamination that voids their own concerns?

As for drawing a line, I don't see signs of that. Kirk was willing to help Miramanee's world avoid an asteroid impact despite the planet having no technology or concept of other civilizations; in the teaser, it almost looked as if he came in prepared to help an uninhabited planet and was somewhat surprised to find it inhabited! On the other hand, he thought he should stay out of the affairs of the spacefaring Ekosians or the contaminated pseudo-Romans, and Picard shunned a stone age culture once but a warp-capable empire another time... If there's a line to be drawn, it seems to be so far down that it's essentially underground!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Anwar]

It's not really Warp Drive that's the barrier to contact, it's knowledge of extraterrestrial life. If the natives already know about aliens and won't be shocked to the core of their culture by their existence, then I'd think contact wouldn't really be a problem. The Edo in "Justice" didn't look like they had Warp but contact was allowed.

Most of those worlds in TOS contacted even if they had no Warp probably already knew about aliens from others, or pre-PD Fed ships or for whatever other reason.

 

[Timo]

This is possible, even if it is not explicit in all (most!) of the cases. But in "Pen Pals", a culture was shown having achieved the means of making contact with the interstellar community. That is, private citizens have access to interstellar radio, a technology that perhaps usually only gets invented after warp drive (explaining why our heroes consider the Malcorian contact in "First Contact" - directly associated with the development of warp drive - a norm rather than an exception).

So the Dreman culture had the means, and a random individual had done the inevitable and achieved the contact through these means, but Picard felt that contact by the Starfleet/UFP side was still prohibited by the PD. Either our heroes are locking the barn door after the horse has not only left the stable but evolved into a sapient species and bought a condo next door - or then the PD bans contact (or at least interference) even in the cases of already contaminated or "eminently contaminable" cultures.

The line might exist, but be a bit wobbly. Or then there is no line as such, and the rules on making contact are based on criteria we cannot decipher at all, unrelated to technology or level of previous contamination.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Gary7]

The Memory-Alpha entry on the Prime Directive is rather interesting and seems to cover most of the bases that have been discussed here. Memory-Alpha is pretty good about referencing episode elements and events to back up statements.

The Wikipedia entry on the Prime Directive describes it somewhat differently with much more extensive attention to the philosophy (even outside Star Trek), and starts out by stating that the PD is applicable for "civilizations that have not yet developed the technology for interstellar spaceflight ("pre-warp"), since no primitive culture can be given or exposed to any information regarding advanced technology or the existence of extraplanetary civilizations".

"Pre-warp" is a catch-all phrase, generally being a label for any beings that have not yet achieved the ability to leave their solar system (warp drive being the operative technology to enable interstellar travel) and are thus ignorant about other life forms. It also implies their being significantly behind the technological level of the Federation. Of course, there is the possibility for some exceptions whereas a world may have been inadvertently contacted by extraterrestrials at some point and the fear or shock value of the event has worn off where the culture is acclimated to the premise and won't experience a disruptive shock by subsequent visits from other species. Or, a culture may have developed significant technologies that approach or even rival Federation technology and yet have not developed advanced space travel for a variety of plausible reasons.

 

[BillJ]

Prime Directive in the 23rd Century:

Prime Directive in the 24th Century:

 

[Anwar]

Yes yes yes, let's all advocate the Galactic Nanny State...

 

[CoveTom]

It's one thing to want to avoid a galactic nanny state. It's quite another to become so rigid that you are willing to let an entire civilization face extinction.

 

[JarodRussell]

In my view, our common history clearly shows that we seriously should not interfere with the development of cultures that are below our level. Let them develop themselves, let them learn from their own mistakes. Every intervention is a form of evangelization. We force our living style onto others because we think we are superior in some form or another.

We still do that.

Present day example. USA thought they must force democracy onto Iraq. Thousands died. Look how thankful they all were for it. And what happened naturally a couple of years later? Democratic movements in Egypt, emerging all on their own. THAT's something that should be encouraged. BUT at the same time, do NOT interfere with that development directly.

Same thing would have happened had some outside force decided for the American colonies: "Well, you guys gotta seperate." And that third force would have bombed the shitload out of everyone, with casualties on the American and the British side. Oh boy, the Americans would have been pretty angry at that third force. And they probably would have made a mess out of their new freedom, because they didn't earn it by themselves. That's a big point. Learning and earning. That goes for individuals as well as for an entire culture. You cannot give a person something without having that person learn about it, and without having that person earn it. The best cultural developments always came from within a culture, never from the outside. Because only then the culture learned to handle that new development.

 

[Count Zero]

Yes yes yes, let's all advocate the Galactic Nanny State...

This is tiresome. You sound like the Republicans who tell us that the economy will crash should we offer healthcare to everyone who needs it or raise taxes.

Please don't bring everyday politics into the discussions here so needlessly. Thanks.

 

[BillJ]

In my view, our common history clearly shows that we seriously should not interfere with the development of cultures that are below our level. Let them develop themselves, let them learn from their own mistakes. Every intervention is a form of evangelization. We force our living style onto others because we think we are superior in some form or another.

We still do that.

But this works under the assumption that we'll never learn or grow ourselves. That interference will always happen because of our interests are involved.

I've always been of the opinion that you stay out of situations that civilizations bring upon themselves. But to allow them to fall because of events beyond their control or knowledge, is just cruel. Even then, it doesn't mean that you can save every world. Sometimes it is just beyond even the means of a superior civilization. But the idea that because I can't save every civilization I should never make the attempt to save any is just utter and complete bullshit.

Which is why I posted earlier that TOS got it right, situations were different for every world and I think the Prime Directive was formed with that idea in mind. In Modern Trek, it became a religious commandment.

 

[BillJ]

Yes yes yes, let's all advocate the Galactic Nanny State...

This is tiresome. You sound like the Republicans who tell us that the economy will crash should we offer healthcare to everyone who needs it or raise taxes.

Please don't bring everyday politics into the discussions here so needlessly. Thanks.

Deleted.

 

[JarodRussell]

Yes yes yes, let's all advocate the Galactic Nanny State...

This is tiresome. You sound like the Republicans who tell us that the economy will crash should we offer healthcare to everyone who needs it or raise taxes.

Please don't bring everyday politics into the discussions here so needlessly. Thanks.

Oh come on.

 

[CoveTom]

Again, you all are debating the issue of whether or not one culture should interfere in another. But in that scenario, we're assuming two different, but equally thriving, cultures.

What I was addressing is how, by the time of the 24th century, the Prime Directive seems to have evolved from rule to dogma, to the point where Starfleet, or at least Picard, now sees non-interference as so important that they will enforce it even to the point of letting another culture, in fact another species, completely cease to exist, even when it is preventable. That is reprehensible, and it also flies in the face of the original purpose of the Prime Directive, which is the preservation of cultures.