Is the Luna-class an improvement?

[Jono]

So (just for speculation's sake) we know that Sisko's Fleet was 600. We know that Sisko wanted to match the Dominion Fleet of 1200 with ELEMENTS of the 7th, 5th and 9th fleets and a Klingon contingent. Those are quarters. If we apply that to the actual fleet since we know there was only 600 and two elements while the 9th Fleet element never arrived. That implies that an element size maybe 300. If there are indeed 4 elements to every fleet (conjecture of course) Then most fleets are 1,200 strong. With 10 Fleets on Record that's 12,000 ships.

Remember the 7th fleet was earlier decimated from 112 to 14 so the question is where did the other 188 ships come from, if that was the entire fleet?
This matches the canon description of 30,000 plus Dominion Cardassian ships. So obviously the Federation had to have equal to more. More if you consider how inferior Star Fleet was to the Dominion.

Minor correction: the 7th fleet was never mentioned as part of Operation Return, it was the 2nd, 5th, 9th and a force of Klingon warships.

Sisko did mention elements in his plan to the admirals, but later on Damar refers to the 2nd and 5th fleets pulling out of the fighting and regrouping at SB375, which suggests that he is talking about entire fleets and not just a portion of them. So there is a question whether that 600 number is just elements or full combat fleets.

I'm surprised you'd think otherwise. My understanding is that it's always been the default assumption of technical fandom: the first 2-3 digits represent the class, the rest represent the ship within that class.

I've never even heard of such speculation.
Yet Fleet size is directly related to the issue of the combat nature that may or may not exist for Star Fleet.

It was one of the earliest (maybe the first) theory of how the registries worked by those involved in the show back when TOS was made. They said that the Enterprise's registry meant it was the 17th major starship design and the first of the series (17-01) and that's how its registry worked in-universe.

However, in the TNG era no one seemed to really bother about following that backstage rule. Excelsiors and Mirandas registries don't all start with 20 or 18 and several of the ships that could be class prototypes don't have 00 or 01 as their final two numbers, the Defiant had 05, the Galaxy had 95 for example.

So it might have been the original intention of those in charge that registries were split by the first numbers referring to class and the next its order of production it doesn't hold in TNG. Or really in TOS anymore with the remastering of it given Constitutions registries in the 1000s, 1600s and 1700s. Plus STXI gave the Kelvin a 500s registry, which was also used by the Antares from "Charlie X" and those ships are nothing alike.

 

[Saito S]

Offense vs. defense.

Ok... I'll give this a shot, though I may end up off-target by several light years.

What Christopher is saying is: Starfleet (and the Feds in general) do not pick fights. They do not conquer, they do not seek conflict, they do not respond with force at the drop of a hat. They view the application of violence as a last resort, if a sometimes necessary one. Their weapons are "defensive", meaning, they arm their ships and personnel due to that unfortunate but acknowledged reality that force IS sometimes necessary if you are going to be out there exploring the galaxy and interacting with all these other powers. And that's pretty much correct.

What Saquist is saying is that in terms of the capabilities of the starship itself, once so armed, "offense vs. defense" in that context is somewhat irrelevant. Starfleet's tactical doctrine, and the Federation's overall philosophy, do not change the fact that Starfleet vessels have formidable weapons. Politics and policy dictate how they SHOULD be used, but in practice, armed is still armed. A Galaxy-class starship can still be used to attack and destroy a target very effectively, just as a Vor'cha-class cruiser or a D'deridex-class warbird can. He's not talking about what they SHOULD do, but what they CAN do. And certainly, during a war, Starfleet can and will "take the offensive", as we saw during DS9. And that's pretty much correct as well.

Am I in the ballpark?

Fleet strength:

We know that Sisko wanted to match the Dominion Fleet of 1200 with ELEMENTS of the 7th, 5th and 9th fleets and a Klingon contingent. Those are quarters. If we apply that to the actual fleet since we know there was only 600 and two elements while the 9th Fleet element never arrived. That implies that an element size maybe 300. If there are indeed 4 elements to every fleet (conjecture of course) Then most fleets are 1,200 strong. With 10 Fleets on Record that's 12,000 ships.

I personally support more fleets of lesser size, though that's pure speculation since we can't know one way or the other. That aside, as Jono pointed out, the 7th fleet wasn't part of OR. And on the 7th, it was stated to be 112 ships prior to getting pounded. This would suggest that not all fleets are necessarily the same size; it might depend on the fleet's assignment and/or class composition.

This matches the canon description of 30,000 plus Dominion Cardassian ships.

Eh? Canon? When was this? I don't recall such a number (or ANY number, actually) being given for the total Dominion fleet strength.

Registry numbers: I personally have never felt that the registry numbers reflect that Starfleet has ACTUALLY built 70k + ships. I do, however, think that a total fleet strength for Starfleet of 10-15k starships (meaning, 10-15k not including runabouts and whatnot) around the time the Dominion War began makes sense. But that, too, is - at least to some degree - personal preference and speculation. The numbers we DO get in the show suggest at least several thousand, but preclude there being tens of thousands (if Starfleet had TENS OF THOUSANDS of full starships, 2400 Dominion reinforcements would have been like "Pfft, bring em on"). But beyond establishing certain minimums and maximums, we can't KNOW just how many ships Starfleet has in total during a given era. There just isn't enough canon information.

I'm sorry but Starfleet is a military organization with an exploratory arm. You don't have designations such as frigate or heavy cruiser to denote explorers. Every Federation ship we have seen have some sort of offensive capabilities (phasers, torpedoes) and defensive capabilities (shields) down to the little runabout.

Perhaps I'm a big dummy but that is exactly how I see it.

This is... similar to how I see it. I would agree with the statement "Starfleet is the Federation's military." They are the organization that defends the populace and fights the wars, regardless of how much the Feds try to avoid war. But not everyone agrees with this (there's a whole crazy huge thread in General about this very topic). But, I think calling them a "military organization with an exploratory arm" is way off. In TIMES of war (or any crises), their role as protector takes precedence over everything else. However, Starfleet is pretty massive, and when the crap is nowhere near the fan, they pour a huge amount of their resources into space exploration and scientific endeavors. The defensive role takes priority when it comes up because it has to; lives are at stake in those situations, and the continuing existence of the UFP itself at times (certainly, that was threatened by both the Dominion War and the events of the "Destiny" novels). But when there is no looming threat, their exploratory and scientific force is far more than an "arm."

Tzenkethi war: I've got no idea. It was a little weird, frankly, how they just threw that in all of a sudden in "The Adversary." "Oh yeah, there was this other war around the early TNG time frame..."

Cardassian war: I always had the impression that the Federation was never in any danger of losing this war to the point where they would be overrun/conquered by the Cardies, or anything close to it. But at the same time, they weren't one of those wimpy little species that pose so little of a real threat that you can safely just push your arm against their forehead and hold them away from you while they flail harmlessly at the air. Starfleet military technology was certainly leagues better than their Cardassian equivalent by the time of "The Wounded", but maybe things were closer to being equal (ish) during the war. Perhaps it started as an intense border war, that could have erupted into something more, but never did, due to Starfleet's somewhat rapid (considering how short a period of time it was) technological improvements during the course of it. Overtime, the Cardassians would have had a harder and harder time mounting an effective offense, but by then they didn't want to give up either (the Cardassian military and government have both been shown to be pretty damn stubborn at times). So it became less intense, but it didn't stop either, not until years later, when the full treaty was finally hammered out. Thus, during early TNG, there were technically still "border wars", but they were only still going on because the Federation was at something of a loss as to how to deal with this implacable, yet barely threatening, foe. Hence, the Ent-D off doing other stuff even though there is technically still this conflict happening in the background.

Was the Defiant used defensively when Sisko contaminated the atmosphere of Solosos III?

Remember how shocked everyone was? Even Klingon warrior Worf thought it was wrong.

Sisko was lucky no one died, but even so the contrivance that the Cardassian and Human colonists could just swap planets was a convenient bit of scripting.

You know, I was never happy with the resolution of that ep. It felt off that Sisko actually went through with it, and it also felt off that there were no consequences. Sure, everything kind of worked out because of the aforementioned colony-swapping; I would think Starfleet would still have a thing or two to say to Sisko about actually launching the thing, regardless of that extremely convenient reality that the colonists could simply switch planets. This in a show that was known for showing consequences in a way that other Treks didn't... not one of DS9's finer moments, IMO.

What would have been great is if it was all a ruse. The warhead was a dud. Only Sisko and one nameless dude who was working somewhere down in the bowels of the ship, prepping the torpedo, knew the truth. Everyone on the bridge thought Sisko was ACTUALLY doing it, even Worf, so that Eddington wouldn't be able to sense deception from any of their reactions. So the torpedo is launched, and maybe it gives off some phony readings just long enough for Eddington to surrender as Sisko threatens to do the same thing to colony after colony... then it's revealed that the torp didn't actually do anything.

And an on-topic note (fancy that! ): I like the Luna-class, though I never thought it was supposed to be a combat-oriented ship either. Regarding the existence of design similarities with the Akira, yet the lack of role similarities assuming the Akira IS a combat-heavy vessel, I don't think that elements such as under-slung nacelles, a rollbar/pod, etc. are necessarily indicative of role. In the Akira's case, the rollbar is a weapons pod, but that's because it was designed as a combat ship; the Luna-class might have a torpedo launcher or two in that thing, but it's mainly a sensor pod. Nacelle positioning would seem to have more to do with ensure the ship can create and maintain a stable warp field than its role. For another example, the shape, angle, and position of the pylons and nacelles relative to the hull are quite similar on the Nova and Sovereign classes, yet the former is much smaller and does not share the same role in the fleet as the latter.

 

[Jono]

This matches the canon description of 30,000 plus Dominion Cardassian ships.

Eh? Canon? When was this? I don't recall such a number (or ANY number, actually) being given for the total Dominion fleet strength.

The 30,000 figure is based on the comment in "When It Rains" when Martok states he can have 1,500 ships deployed by the next day and the Romulan at the meeting states that the Dominion, Cardassian and Breen fleet would outnumber them 20 to 1 (1,500x20=30,000).

Someone stated earlier that the Klingons only had 1,200 ships and I assume it was a misquote based on the 1,500 Martok mentioned in this episode. I'd say that there is enough room that it can be interpreted as just the number of ships Martok can have ready in a short amount of time rather than an indication of the Klingons total number of ships.

 

[Saquist]

This matches the canon description of 30,000 plus Dominion Cardassian ships.

Eh? Canon? When was this? I don't recall such a number (or ANY number, actually) being given for the total Dominion fleet strength.

The 30,000 figure is based on the comment in "When It Rains" when Martok states he can have 1,500 ships deployed by the next day and the Romulan at the meeting states that the Dominion, Cardassian and Breen fleet would outnumber them 20 to 1 (1,500x20=30,000).

Someone stated earlier that the Klingons only had 1,200 ships and I assume it was a misquote based on the 1,500 Martok mentioned in this episode. I'd say that there is enough room that it can be interpreted as just the number of ships Martok can have ready in a short amount of time rather than an indication of the Klingons total number of ships.

There is a question of whether Martok said 1,200 or 1,500 reinforcements. I think I hear 1,500 but I've seen a script that says 1,200

Remember at the Second Battle of Chintoka the Klingons lost all but one ship. It's unclear if they committed all their ships to that battle. But only one ship survived that battle.

IF there were other ships other than that sole survivor, OTHER THAN then the 1,500 ship reinforcement fleet that was coming in that hadn't been committed to that engagement and were else where then instead of 30,000 it's higher. The Romulan Admiral is talking abou the total number in this "theater of war" he makes no reference to the Total numbers of the Klingons both there and in the Klingon Empire.

Essentially if we go much higher than 1,500 then we start to EXCEED the Federation Registry count and Ronald Moore's figure of 30,000 ships between USS HOOD and USS VOYAGER as the Federation's standard fleet. This is because the Klingons obviously aren't the bulk of the Fleets and neither are the Romulans.

IF we say there is another 1500 ships out there for a combined total of 3000 then the Cardassian Dominion forces are 60,000 ships strong. Dominion ships were 1/3 of the Fleets but we didn't see 18,000 ships come through the wormhole or any where close. We saw (I think) 3 convoys of likely 2,000 ships. 6000 or so ships. and It's conceivable they produced an addition 4 thousand ships in the year before the war in Cardassia and as the war continued. That leaves a Cardassian force of 20,000 ships.

If we assume the Klingons had more ships these numbers inflate accordingly and become more difficult to reconcile.
Despite what we've seen on screen we know the Federation is 8,000 lightyears wide with 150 planets and 105 starbases (or more) These are installations that that need protecting as well. Not all the Federation force can be dedicated to the Frontlines.


@Saito S
That effectively is the position I've taken on Offense vs Defense ability.

 

[Timo]

You don't have designations such as frigate or heavy cruiser to denote explorers.

Tellingly, though, Starfleet calls its biggest and baddest battlewagon "explorer". Although only in backstage material, to be sure.

If there are indeed 4 elements to every fleet (conjecture of course) Then most fleets are 1,200 strong.

One has to decide how big a part of a fleet Starfleet would commit to the Operation Return attack. Why commit less than 100%? There'd have to be a very pressing reason. For all we know, 300 ships means 90% of a fleet, with 10% left behind because of repairs, not for tactical reasons. (After all, in WWI style naval warfare, reserves make no sense - the side that keeps reserves loses automatically, because the side that has more cannon at the battle site wins automatically, and the reserves will automatically be too small to win the next battle. And DS9 fighting is just like WWI fighting, with everybody closing in on pre-Dreadnoughtish melee ranges rather than holding back and starting out with the longest-ranged weapons.)

A massacre and the resulting actions of Star Fleet personnel like Obrien and Maxwell would be properly defined was open hostilities or conflict.

Apparently, Cardassia apologized for the first Setlik III raid, and that was that. Had there been a war adjoining that raid, no apology would have been made.

It's conceivable they produced an addition 4 thousand ships in the year before the war

Yet the Dominion threatens to outnumber the combined fighting Alphans at the very end of the war, suggesting that it started out with fewer ships and then built up a numerical superiority during the war. Which goes well with the idea that the Dominion creates new soldiers like crazy, just by pressing a button in a machine that goes "ping". The Alpha Axis was always blowing up Dominion shipyards, and still those managed to outproduce their Alpha equivalents...

The big problem with a large Starfleet is that it cannot outnumber its traditional enemies like Klingons and Romulans too badly, or most Trek plots cease to make sense. If Klingons had 1,500 ships to commit to defense or throw away in offense at the hottest point of the war, how much would they have in total? 5,000? 10,000? Why wouldn't all of these ships be committed? A lower figure is thus preferable. And if Klingons have 5,000 ships, Starfleet better not have more than 8,000 or something like that.

OTOH, if the Klingons really can muster just 1,500 ships after modifying their warp cores, will all of them be sent to attack? The estimate that they'll face 20:1 odds comes from a Romulan, and it's the sensible Martok who acknowledges the estimate. Martok wouldn't be committing 100% of his forces to the fight, whereas the Dominion very well might. Thus, a Dominion force of much less than 30,000 could still offer the 20:1 advantage at the front lines.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Karnbeln]

I'm sorry but Starfleet is a military organization with an exploratory arm.

I don't care much to jump into this debate, but I do think this statement needs to be reversed. Starfleet is an exploratory organization with military responsibilities and structure. The exploration is the main mandate, not simply an "arm". Enterprise clearly established that Starfleet was a subset of TOS's United Earth Space Probe Agency, established in VOY and ENT as a NASA-like organization. And when they first launched, Archer was debating on the need for weapons to even be on the vessel, and the way he was arguing implied he wasn't just arguing for the hell of it, this was something that had actively been considered. The only part of Starfleet that was military from conception was the ranks, which would likely have been deemed necessary for managing large vessels. So Starfleet's central mandate is exploring, diplomacy, and science. It has additional responsibilities as a line of defense because space is where the wars are fought, and they're the ones with the ships.

As for the 'heavy cruiser', etc. classifications, are those ever established in dialog? I was under the impression that those came from fanon.

 

[Timo]

Enterprise clearly established that Starfleet was a subset of TOS's United Earth Space Probe Agency

Naah. It "clearly established" that Starfleet and UESPA shared something that allowed them to be represented in the same graphic design. We never learned which, if either, was the top dog and which, if either, was the subordinate.

And when they first launched, Archer was debating on the need for weapons to even be on the vessel, and the way he was arguing implied he wasn't just arguing for the hell of it, this was something that had actively been considered.

It's telling that Starfleet, an organization with at least decades of history at that point, was now launching its very first exploration vessel.

It would be worth debating whether to install a machine gun on the foredeck of the Calypso for a journey through dangerous waters, despite the fact that the French Navy had been sending adversaries to the bottom of the sea for something like half a millennium already.

The only part of Starfleet that was military from conception was the ranks

That, and the hordes of soldiers aboard Archer's vessel, and the armed-to-the-teeth warships that apparently preceded NX-01 by some years and were a better match to Klingon ships than NX-01 was. See "The Expanse".

It would appear that Starfleet was a more or less pure combat organization that got some science backing from the UESPA, and decided to venture to the exploratory business in 2151 when finally getting a starship that could fly to unexplored depths of space in a reasonable time...

As for the 'heavy cruiser', etc. classifications, are those ever established in dialog? I was under the impression that those came from fanon.

"Explorer" is fanon, or backstage jargon. "Heavy cruiser", "light cruiser", "cruiser", "frigate", "destroyer", "dreadnought" and "escort" are classic warship designations we have heard onscreen, although only heavy cruiser and escort have been directly associated with a starship design we have seen onscreen. In addition, we have "scout", "science vessel", "survey ship", "hospital ship" and "transport" for assorted other Starfleet-operated ship types, and "runabout", "attack fighter", "courier" and "shuttle/pod" for small craft.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Karnbeln]

I suppose you are right. I probably got too wrapped up in my impression that it was part of UESPA. My ideas of early Starfleet are based on that assumption.

I still think that Starfleet as we see it is a militarized exploration agency as opposed to the reverse, but I realize the classic view in fandom is Starfleet as a straight-up Navy analog. (On a slightly off-topic note, I can accept Starfleet as being primarily military, but I don't get those fans who insist that everything should be just like in "the real Navy". It's an entirely different armed force, 200-400 years in the future, in an entirely different environment. Things are bound to be different, from such basic things like how ranks and deployments work to such superficial things as uniforms.)

 

[Timo]

Agreed in full on the parentheses part.

The seal with the names of the two organizations might be interpreted as Starfleet Command being a subset of UESPA by analogy: we have seen another seal by another Starfleet 200 years later, one that said both "Starfleet Command" and "UFP", and the former was above the graphic and the latter was below it. This would suggest that the organization above is a subset of the organization below. And Starfleet Command indeed sits above UESPA in that seal from "Demons"...

However, it's somewhat more traditional to have the higher organization in the upper position on such seals.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saquist]

One has to decide how big a part of a fleet Starfleet would commit to the Operation Return attack. Why commit less than 100%? There'd have to be a very pressing reason.

It's merely speculation on the facts.
There are a number of possibilities but it's clear the apparent size of the Federation Fleet we see or hear isn't equal to the Dominion Cardassian forces. This scenario neatly fits the all the facts available without contradiction.

And DS9 fighting is just like WWI fighting, with everybody closing in on pre-Dreadnoughtish melee ranges rather than holding back and starting out with the longest-ranged weapons.)

Indeed...it's sensationalism.

Apparently, Cardassia apologized for the first Setlik III raid, and that was that. Had there been a war adjoining that raid, no apology would have been made.

"Cardassians don't make mistakes."

Yet the Dominion threatens to outnumber the combined fighting Alphans at the very end of the war, suggesting that it started out with fewer ships and then built up a numerical superiority during the war.

They never said they outnumbered or were outnumbered.
They said the Dominion ship yards were out producing them. So they were afraid that they would eventually be outnumbered.

The big problem with a large Starfleet is that it cannot outnumber its traditional enemies like Klingons and Romulans too badly, or most Trek plots cease to make sense. If Klingons had 1,500 ships to commit to defense or throw away in offense at the hottest point of the war, how much would they have in total? 5,000? 10,000? Why wouldn't all of these ships be committed? A lower figure is thus preferable. And if Klingons have 5,000 ships, Starfleet better not have more than 8,000 or something like that.

Klingons should have a standing Fleet of 10-12,000 based on the canon data (20 to 1) 1,500 is a reinforcement fleet not their entire Fleet. Klingons still have to hold their own territory as Gowron said.

Fans tend to want a lower number because they give a considerable amount credit to what we don't see on screen.

OTOH, if the Klingons really can muster just 1,500 ships after modifying their warp cores, will all of them be sent to attack?

According to the episode they were in defensive positions untill Gowron threatened to waste them in fruitless attack on Cardassia.

The Romulans and Ross said that the Klingons are the only thing standing between us and the Dominion. Losing those sthips put them all at risk. One thing your'e not taking into account is that not every Dominion was equiped with the special weapon so Star Fleet and the Romulans could aford to fight on the border but they had to use the Klingons as a shield incase those weapons were used.

Many think the Federation ships weren't capable of fighting at all rather they couldn't risk engagements with out the Klingons on station. This mean there was a Klingon contingent to every fleet that was likely taking point. Obviously this means you can't execute any kind of attack plan with any likely suscess.

 

[Saito S]

The 30,000 figure is based on the comment in "When It Rains" when Martok states he can have 1,500 ships deployed by the next day and the Romulan at the meeting states that the Dominion, Cardassian and Breen fleet would outnumber them 20 to 1 (1,500x20=30,000).

Someone stated earlier that the Klingons only had 1,200 ships and I assume it was a misquote based on the 1,500 Martok mentioned in this episode. I'd say that there is enough room that it can be interpreted as just the number of ships Martok can have ready in a short amount of time rather than an indication of the Klingons total number of ships.

There is a question of whether Martok said 1,200 or 1,500 reinforcements. I think I hear 1,500 but I've seen a script that says 1,200

Of course! How did I forget about this bit of math as the basis for the 30k number... Thanks guys.

And yeah, just watched that bit again on Youtube, Martok DEFINITELY says 1500.

Remember at the Second Battle of Chintoka the Klingons lost all but one ship. It's unclear if they committed all their ships to that battle. But only one ship survived that battle.

IF there were other ships other than that sole survivor, OTHER THAN then the 1,500 ship reinforcement fleet that was coming in that hadn't been committed to that engagement and were else where then instead of 30,000 it's higher. The Romulan Admiral is talking abou the total number in this "theater of war" he makes no reference to the Total numbers of the Klingons both there and in the Klingon Empire.

Yeah, I don't think there's ANY way that "outnumbered 20 to 1" was supposed to mean that ALL Klingon forces combined would be outnumbered 20 to 1, just the forces that were currently in that area, or could be brought to that area within the next several days.

The dialog isn't EXPLICITLY clear on the point, but I get the impression that the one Klingon ship was the only survivor of the battle, period. And O'Brien says that "311 ships" were trashed; if only one ship survived, and 312 is the total for all allied ships that entered the system, then the Klingon portion of the Chin'toka effort was just a standard war fleet, not an unusuallly large committment of ships. As for the Klingons, I took "I can have 1500 Klingon ships here by tomorrow" to mean that there will be 1500 ships ready to go, total, regardless of whether they are ships that were already in the area, or reinforcements from elsewhere, or whatever. 1500 total in this operational theater, at this time.

Essentially if we go much higher than 1,500 then we start to EXCEED the Federation Registry count and Ronald Moore's figure of 30,000 ships between USS HOOD and USS VOYAGER as the Federation's standard fleet. This is because the Klingons obviously aren't the bulk of the Fleets and neither are the Romulans.

IF we say there is another 1500 ships out there for a combined total of 3000 then the Cardassian Dominion forces are 60,000 ships strong. Dominion ships were 1/3 of the Fleets but we didn't see 18,000 ships come through the wormhole or any where close. We saw (I think) 3 convoys of likely 2,000 ships. 6000 or so ships. and It's conceivable they produced an addition 4 thousand ships in the year before the war in Cardassia and as the war continued. That leaves a Cardassian force of 20,000 ships.

If we assume the Klingons had more ships these numbers inflate accordingly and become more difficult to reconcile.
Despite what we've seen on screen we know the Federation is 8,000 lightyears wide with 150 planets and 105 starbases (or more) These are installations that that need protecting as well. Not all the Federation force can be dedicated to the Frontlines.

Which is why I've advocated a minimum of 10k ships for Starfleet on the eve of the war, though I still don't personally see tens of thousands (certainly not nearly enough to fill every registry "slot" from 1701 to 75000+). I understand the argument for such huge numbers; I know, for example, that you favor it Saquist, which is fine. Without more solid evidence either way, we can't know for sure, so it comes down to preference and speculation. Still, if the Dominion could be 30k strong or MORE when combined with the Cardassians and the Breen, given that there's never been any reason to assume that either the Klingons or Romulans outnumber Starfleet to any significant degree, we are left requiring a Starfleet of at LEAST 10k, or it's hard to imagine them being able to put up a decent fight against the Dominion given their shipbuilding capabilities.

Personally, I think that roughly 30,000 as the total, deployable Dominion force in the Alpha Quadrant makes sense. The Jem'Hadar might make up more than a simple third of that, given how many of them there are (and given their reliance on the small, easily mass-produceabl bug ship). This would mean that the Romulan general was being a bit over-dramatic in pointing out the technical odds: if 30k IS the total deplyable force, than nowhere near ALL 30k could suddenly be brought to bear on the Klingon front-line of 1500, at least not immediately. Still, he is a Romulan, so he's allowed.

This would mean that, to have a real shot, the Allied fleet must total at least 25k+, which seems pretty reasonable. Starfleet and the Klingons might be able to field more than 10k normally, but they were also depleted a bit by fighting each other for a time. The Romulan reliance on the massive D'deridex might mean that they have fewer ships overall; thus, a total allied fleet strength of around 30k also works.

There is still a bit of a disconnect, if you ask me, between the idea of both sides working with total fleet strengths of 30k or more, and the idea that 2800 Jem'Hadar ships could be THAT big a deal; "If those Dominion reinforcements come through the wormhole, we'll have lost everything," says Ross. Still, maybe he was just being a bit over dramatic as well, and as with the Klingons holding the line in "When it Rains," these assessments of the tactical situation have less to do with total fleet strength and more to do with applicable fleet strength in a given theater and time frame.

@Saito S That effectively is the position I've taken on Offense vs Defense ability.

Well, good to see I had it right at least in part, then.

Enterprise clearly established that Starfleet was a subset of TOS's United Earth Space Probe Agency

Naah. It "clearly established" that Starfleet and UESPA shared something that allowed them to be represented in the same graphic design. We never learned which, if either, was the top dog and which, if either, was the subordinate.

The only part of Starfleet that was military from conception was the ranks

That, and the hordes of soldiers aboard Archer's vessel, and the armed-to-the-teeth warships that apparently preceded NX-01 by some years and were a better match to Klingon ships than NX-01 was. See "The Expanse".

It would appear that Starfleet was a more or less pure combat organization that got some science backing from the UESPA, and decided to venture to the exploratory business in 2151 when finally getting a starship that could fly to unexplored depths of space in a reasonable time...

Timo Saloniemi

Interesting... I didn't know that about those other, apparently older yet tougher combat ships Starfleet had (I didn't really watch ENT too much). So perhaps Earth Starfleet was originally envisioned as some kind of space defense agency?

Still, there isn't any solid evidence to connect Earth Starfleet and Federation Starfleet as far as I know... I tend to think that they just named the latter after the former to honor it. They no doubt took some structural/logistical cues from it, as well, but I think it was created as its own organization.

I still think that Starfleet as we see it is a militarized exploration agency as opposed to the reverse, but I realize the classic view in fandom is Starfleet as a straight-up Navy analog. (On a slightly off-topic note, I can accept Starfleet as being primarily military, but I don't get those fans who insist that everything should be just like in "the real Navy". It's an entirely different armed force, 200-400 years in the future, in an entirely different environment. Things are bound to be different, from such basic things like how ranks and deployments work to such superficial things as uniforms.)

I go with more of a roughly 50%/50% between exploration and defense, overall. Which mission will take priority - either for Starfleet as a whole or for a given ship - will depend on the general situation at the time, but in a larger sense, Starfleet is equally devoted to both aspects IMO.

Agreed in full on the parentheses part.

Yeah, same. Beyond those basics you mention, there are some details that are similar to how the real US Navy operates, and some that are different. But I think the idea of Starfleet simply being "the US Navy in space" makes no sense, and is one reason I never liked the depiction of Starfleet in TWOK, because that's exactly what it felt like to me in that movie.

One thing your'e not taking into account is that not every Dominion was equiped with the special weapon so Star Fleet and the Romulans could aford to fight on the border but they had to use the Klingons as a shield incase those weapons were used.

Many think the Federation ships weren't capable of fighting at all rather they couldn't risk engagements with out the Klingons on station. This mean there was a Klingon contingent to every fleet that was likely taking point. Obviously this means you can't execute any kind of attack plan with any likely suscess.

That's a good point. The Dominion was working to install the Breen weapon on Jem'Hadar ships, but that wouldn't have happened in any significant numbers overnight. Klingon ships immune to the Breen weapon could try to target any ships carrying the weapon in defensive actions, while Starfleet and Romulan ships hang back and cover them from as far away as possible. As you said, such tactics would not be at all viable for offensive actions, but they could at least hold the line for a time.

 

[Tomalak]

And yeah, just watched that bit again on Youtube, Martok DEFINITELY says 1500.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't he say something like "By the end of the week, we'll have 1500 ships", suggesting next week they might have 3000, then 4500, etc. Might just have been the number they could modify in a given time, for whatever reason.

On the other hand, we never actually learn if it was this freak engine alteration that made the one ship impervious. For all we know, the Klingons were just flying around as vulnerable as anyone, and the Breen didn't bother to test them. Ok, maybe unlikely...

 

[Jono]

^ "By tomorrow, we'll have fifteen-hundred Klingon vessels ready for deployment."

 

[Saquist]

There is still a bit of a disconnect, if you ask me, between the idea of both sides working with total fleet strengths of 30k or more, and the idea that 2800 Jem'Hadar ships could be THAT big a deal; "If those Dominion reinforcements come through the wormhole, we'll have lost everything," says Ross. Still, maybe he was just being a bit over dramatic as well, and as with the Klingons holding the line in "When it Rains," these assessments of the tactical situation have less to do with total fleet strength and more to do with applicable fleet strength in a given theater and time frame.

I think the schism is bridge by the effectiveness of Cardassian tech to Dominion. A Higher concentration (so suddenly) of Dominin ships would be extremely disruptive the Allies Front Lines and even allow penetration with impunity. While adding 4,000 ships over a year is gradual and at least partially balanced out by the Klingons and the Federation's own ship production. The Registry suggest the Federation was producing 1,037 ships after the start of the war a year. If the Klingons were doing lie wise or comprable and the Romulans as well then it's conceivable that the strikes against the Dominion shipyards may have been holding them in check.

 

[Tomalak]

^ "By tomorrow, we'll have fifteen-hundred Klingon vessels ready for deployment."

Ah thanks! So they probably had about a million ships ready by next Tuesday.

 

[Timo]

The Registry suggest the Federation was producing 1,037 ships after the start of the war a year.

...the odd thing is that this production really never appeared on screen.

That is, we got one ship that was explicitly built during the war - the USS Sao Paulo, which became the second Defiant class USS Defiant. But her registry didn't really support the thousand-ships-per-year scheme, as it was too low for that theory of registry allocation. We also saw other Defiants flying around, even though evidently Starfleet wasn't building any before the war. But that was the only ship type that was newer than the prewar ones; there were no examples of e.g. Sovereign or Nova or Prometheus around. And no ship of any design was shown sporting a "post-prewar" registry, that is, one higher than that of the Voyager.

One is almost tempted to think that Starfleet is incapable of building significant numbers of starships per year, and that war is more a hindrance than an accelerator for such building - and that the five-digit registries have a lot of "air" in them, there being perhaps just a hundred registries used per each seeming thousand-registry batch.

I guess the vast war theater could have swallowed a thousand newbuild ships of fairly modern type per year, and that a few of them did appear on the far background of the fleets we saw, so we didn't spot their high registries. Perhaps the 9th Fleet at Bajor was considered less important than others, in the sense that it only had to defend the wormhole instead of fly around on offensive sorties - so older, less mobile types were concentrated there, and these were what Sisko and Ross had to play with?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Saquist]

]...the odd thing is that this production really never appeared on screen.

That is, we got one ship that was explicitly built during the war - the USS Sao Paulo, which became the second Defiant class USS Defiant. But her registry didn't really support the thousand-ships-per-year scheme, as it was too low for that theory of registry allocation. We also saw other Defiants flying around, even though evidently Starfleet wasn't building any before the war. But that was the only ship type that was newer than the prewar ones; there were no examples of e.g. Sovereign or Nova or Prometheus around. And no ship of any design was shown sporting a "post-prewar" registry, that is, one higher than that of the Voyager.

One is almost tempted to think that Starfleet is incapable of building significant numbers of starships per year, and that war is more a hindrance than an accelerator for such building - and that the five-digit registries have a lot of "air" in them, there being perhaps just a hundred registries used per each seeming thousand-registry batch.

I guess the vast war theater could have swallowed a thousand newbuild ships of fairly modern type per year, and that a few of them did appear on the far background of the fleets we saw, so we didn't spot their high registries. Perhaps the 9th Fleet at Bajor was considered less important than others, in the sense that it only had to defend the wormhole instead of fly around on offensive sorties - so older, less mobile types were concentrated there, and these were what Sisko and Ross had to play with?

Timo Saloniemi

There are 720 units between Promethueus and Sao Paulo
That's pretty cose to that thousand ship reference. I'm surprised it's in sync. And Prometheus was in 2374 and Sao Paulo was launched in late 2375. Fascinating.

NCC-74913 Prometheus
Then they made another Valiant NCC 75418
Sao Paulo NCC-75633
TITAN NCC-80102

 

[Tomalak]

We also saw other Defiants flying around, even though evidently Starfleet wasn't building any before the war.

How do you come to that conclusion? The Valiant was full of cadets when war broke out, so evidently it had been built. Presumably having seen the success of the Defiant against the Jem'Hadar, where the Odyssey and a fleet of Romulan and Cardassian warships had failed, Starfleet decided to reactivate the programme.

 

[Saquist]

And come to think of it War Broke Out in Call to Arms and we see 2 Defiants at the end.

 

[Vance]

Registries in TNG-VOY time are 'random sequential', meaning that while they have the same overall range of numbers which generally increase as time goes, they are not strictly sequential. NCC-1001, for instance, may or may not be the ship made after NCC-1000. All you can tell was that were put into Starfleet Registry at about the same time.

TOS is a bit more odd, particularly since it's been retconned a few times. Originally the NCC was for starships only, and then divided up by NCC-XXYY where XX was the starship class (of which three would be in service in TOS time) and YY was the ship in the series. The Constellation muddies this up, however, due to its budgetary reuse of the 1701 to make 1017.

FJ then takes the TOS registries in another direction. NCC-5XX/NCC-6XX was the Destroyer hull. NCC-17XX (with the Constellation exception) was the Heavy Cruiser hull. NCC-3800XX was the Tug. NCC-21XX was the Dreadnought. NXX-10XX, 20XX, 30XX, 40XX, and 50XX were each pods of different type.

TAS uses NCC for all mainline ships and then a subtype letter for non-mainline ships. So you get things like NCC-GXXX which means 'General Cargo, XXX'th ship'.

FASA uses a combination of nearly all of the above, with very large ranges for ship classes. This is why you get a Loknar with NCC-4700, since she's a frigate in that range.