Is the Federation segregated???

[Anticitizen]

I don't mind "black"...

"African-American" is okay...

Once we start to get into the various forms of the 'n' word...then, we're in trouble.

What, like negroid?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Negroid

Negroid is probably the most accurate term to describe the phenotype (and yes, it's a legit scientific term, not a slang or slur). Black's good enough for conversational use.

African-American, however, is extremely lame. Was Guinan African-American? No, she was from neither Africa nor America!

What do you think a descendant of aboriginal Australians would think of being called 'African American'? They're quite black, you know. Or a black person whose family immigrated into the US from a Caribbean island, whose ancestors migrated from Africa hundreds of years ago.

And let's not overlook the man or woman who was born and raised in South Africa, and are quite white. When they move to the US, must they describe themselves as African American? Well, guess what? They really are! It's far more legitimate to call them African Americans than current residents whose family left Africa generations ago.

Sorry about the rant, it's just one of those things that bugs me. Don't even get me started on American Indian/Native American. I'll just say that the term should be Aboriginal American...

 

[Joel_Kirk]

One thing I don't get is the lack of Hispanic actors/actresses in Trek. Considering Hispanics outnumber blacks in the US, oh the travesty!!! lol.. Eeek....Roddenberry hated Latinos, as did Berman and Braga. There was a black actor in ALL the main cast of every series, but only Beltran and Dawson in ONE show!!

She was only in like two episodes, but, Sonja Gomez.

We had a lack of Asian representation as well...which we've already covered in another thread in the General section.

I remember Tech Chang...and the admiral portrayed by Clyde Kusatsu (sp)...Of course, we had Alyssa Ogawa and Keiko O'Brien...

But plenty of black extras, back ground characters and secondary characters were seen. If we do include aliens both Worf and Guinan were played by black actors.

There was actually a write up on this.

In the 1st season, yes, there were 'plenty' of different ethnicities in the background...and those who were secondary characters. However, in TNG's later seasons, we saw less of a 'mixture' in the crew...and the older black actors and actress turning up as admirals and such.

I don't mind "black"...

"African-American" is okay...

Once we start to get into the various forms of the 'n' word...then, we're in trouble.

What, like negroid?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Negroid

Negroid is probably the most accurate term to describe the phenotype (and yes, it's a legit scientific term, not a slang or slur). Black's good enough for conversational use.

African-American, however, is extremely lame. Was Guinan African-American? No, she was from neither Africa nor America!

What do you think a descendant of aboriginal Australians would think of being called 'African American'? They're quite black, you know. Or a black person whose family immigrated into the US from a Caribbean island, whose ancestors migrated from Africa hundreds of years ago.

And let's not overlook the man or woman who was born and raised in South Africa, and are quite white. When they move to the US, must they describe themselves as African American? Well, guess what? They really are! It's far more legitimate to call them African Americans than current residents whose family left Africa generations ago.

Sorry about the rant, it's just one of those things that bugs me. Don't even get me started on American Indian/Native American. I'll just say that the term should be Aboriginal American...

First: Why would it be troubling? Questions I would ask for someone 'troubled' over people who have the freedom to call themselves 'African-American'...'black'...'brown': Is the individual 'African-American' or 'black'? Or a person of color?

Some Asian-AMERICAN friends of mine two or three years ago received the same thing from a 'bugged' individual(Euro-American) who questioned why they call themselves 'Asian-American.'

As for Native-Americans called themselves 'Native American': Um, they are 'natives' of 'America.'

As this (I saying 'this' since I'm posting from America)is the 'land of the free'...I say they have the right, as anyone else, to refer themselves as they please.

Of course, the gay and lesbian community fits in there as well with terms they are comfortable with.

Second: I was talking about myself personally. Obviously, someone from Australia, Russia, Italian, etc of afro descent....would want to be noted according to the country of their birth.

Third: I would hope that the term 'negroid' is not used offline. (Although, if it was...I would definitely figure that a bold move). Regardless, I'm sure we are aware what 'n' word I was talking about...

Fourth: If 'African-American' is lame...I think we can say the same for the white individuals who call themselves 'Irish-American'...'Italian-American'...etc...

So much for the bullshit Trek credo that everyone respects other cultures and beliefs...

Wow...

Fascinating...

I actually want to do a project in the future about how Trek isn't as progressive as it claims; and I'm keeping track of threads like this that pop up. (It's some good and interesting stuff).

 

[Nerys Myk]

Negroid is more or less an obsolete term thats fallen into disfavor in most scientific circles.

What's wrong with African-American ( other than being a bit of a mouthfull)? If an American is of African ancestry he's an African-American. Seems simple enough. Why would anyone from Australia want to use the term if they aren't from Africa or America? If a South African of European or Asian origins who has moved to America wishes to refer to themselves as "African-American" they can. Though it might get a few stares because the the assocations certain terms have. When did the length of time an individual's family has been in America have to do with their right to call them selves a (insert name)-American?

 

[Anticitizen]

First: Why would it be troubling? Questions I would ask for someone 'troubled' over people who have the freedom to call themselves 'African-American'...'black'...'brown': Is the individual 'African-American' or 'black'? Or a person of color?

Some Asian-AMERICAN friends of mine two or three years ago received the same thing from a 'bugged' individual(Euro-American) who questioned why they call themselves 'Asian-American.'

As for Native-Americans called themselves 'Native American': Um, they are 'natives' of 'America.'

As this (I saying 'this' since I'm posting from America)is the 'land of the free'...I say they have the right, as anyone else, to refer themselves as they please.

Of course, the gay and lesbian community fits in there as well with terms they are comfortable with.

Second: I was talking about myself personally. Obviously, someone from Australia, Russia, Italian, etc of afro descent....would want to be noted according to the country of their birth.

Third: I would hope that the term 'negroid' is not used offline. (Although, if it was...I would definitely figure that a bold move). Regardless, I'm sure we are aware what 'n' word I was talking about...

Fourth: If 'African-American' is lame...I think we can say the same for the white individuals who call themselves 'Irish-American'...'Italian-American'...etc...

So much for the bullshit Trek credo that everyone respects other cultures and beliefs...

Wow...

Fascinating...

I actually want to do a project in the future about how Trek isn't as progressive as it claims; and I'm keeping track of threads like this that pop up. (It's some good and interesting stuff).

The thing is, terms like (let's say) 'Irish American' may describe country of origin, or personal/familial history, but they do not describe race. If you met a black man that described himself as 'Irish American', you'd cock an eyebrow, at least mentally.

I don't like 'Native American' because... well, I'm a 'Native American'. I was born in America, thus I'm a native. 'Aboriginal' is Latin for, literally, 'from the beginning'. I would also accept 'indigenous Americans.'

Edit: I never said anyone shouldn't have the right to call themselves whatever they want. I'm just pointing out helpful ways in which they could be precise with their definitions.

 

[Anticitizen]

When did the length of time an individual's family has been in America have to do with their right to call them selves a (insert name)-American?

Because race, culture, and nation of citizenship are all different things. If I move to Canada and become a Canadian citizen, I'd expect to be called a Canadian, not an American-Canadian.

Are white people living in South Africa called European Africans?

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I think that the natives of Alpha Centauri are grossly under-represented in Trek!


In the future envisioned by Mr Roddenberry, such things like race, sex, hair coverage, etc don't matter anymore. As Joel_Kirk said, this is still just a TV series that is the product of the timeframe in which it was written and who the producers decide to cast in the various roles (pretty much any of which could be played by any colour of actor).

Bry

 

[Nerys Myk]

When did the length of time an individual's family has been in America have to do with their right to call them selves a (insert name)-American?

Because race, culture, and nation of citizenship are all different things. If I move to Canada and become a Canadian citizen, I'd expect to be called a Canadian, not an American-Canadian.

Are white people living in South Africa called European Africans?

Sorry, but its an individuals call to make. I want to call my self a British-American I can or I can go more general and say I'm a European-American or more specific, Scots-American. Some Americans want to take pride in their ancestor's Religious, cultural, racial or National origins. Why is this bothersome? We can be citizens of America and still celebrate the culture of our ancestors along with American culture. Should we ban Columbus Day, Cinco De Mayo and St Patricks Day because you don't like it?

Maybe one of our Canadian posters can address what most Americans who immigrate to Canada call themselves. What you would call yourself or would prefer to be called in that situation is up to you.

No idea what whites in South Africa are currently called. In the past they had a complex system in place called "Apartheid", and they were called "White". The whites often self identified as Afrikaaners or British.

 

[Anticitizen]

Sorry, but its an individuals call to make. I want to call my self a British-American I can or I can go more general and say I'm a European-American or more specific, Scots-American. Some Americans want to take pride in their ancestor's Religious, cultural, racial or National origins. Why is this bothersome?

Again, my problem with it is when people use it to describe *race*, not culture, or heritage, or whatever. 'African American' is a fine way to describe someone of African cultural heritage who had moved to the US. It's NOT an accurate synonym for 'black'. Nor is it even useful, culturally, to describe a 3rd or 4th generation black American who has never been to Africa and only knows as much about Africa as the average non-black US citizen.

I'll throw some more logs on the fire - there's no such country as 'Africa'. Even if you did wish to accurately describe your heritage as an immigrant in the US, you say, for instance, 'Kenyan American'. You wouldn't expect someone from Argentina in the US to describe themselves as 'South American American,' would you?

 

[Nerys Myk]

Sorry, but its an individuals call to make. I want to call my self a British-American I can or I can go more general and say I'm a European-American or more specific, Scots-American. Some Americans want to take pride in their ancestor's Religious, cultural, racial or National origins. Why is this bothersome?

Again, my problem with it is when people use it to describe *race*, not culture, or heritage, or whatever. 'African American' is a fine way to describe someone of African cultural heritage who had moved to the US. It's NOT an accurate synonym for 'black'. Nor is it even useful, culturally, to describe a 3rd or 4th generation black American who has never been to Africa and only knows as much about Africa as the average non-black US citizen.

I'll throw some more logs on the fire - there's no such country as 'Africa'. Even if you did wish to accurately describe your heritage as an immigrant in the US, you say, for instance, 'Kenyan American'. You wouldn't expect someone from Argentina in the US to describe themselves as 'South American American,' would you?

Pretty sure "African-American" is a cultural term. It refers to the cultures that developed in the communities of Americans of African decent. Its also refers to heritage. "African American" isn't a race.

You seem to forget that many Africans were brought to America against their will. Connections to whatever tribe/nation/country/culture they belonged to were forcibably severed. So, to their decendents "Africa" is about it. If they happen to know some specific details then they can use what ever tribe, culture or nation with American. If they choose.

A person from Argentina could be refered to as a "Latin-American", because South America is part of a geographic region call "Latin America". The American American thing is redundant and silly. Africa is also a Geographic region, as is Asia. You wanna tell Asian-Americans who've been here more than a single generation or have no clue about Asia what to call themselves too?

How many folks who call themsleves "Italian-American" or "Irish-American" actually have a clue about Irish or Italian culture? What'd the cut off? Should there be a test before some can use the hyphen?

 

[Anticitizen]

You seem to forget that many Africans were brought to America against their will.

Uhm, no, haven't forgotten.

A person from Argentina could be refered to as a "Latin-American", because South America is part of a geographic region call "Latin America". The American American thing is redundant and silly. Africa is also a Geographic region, as is Asia. You wanna tell Asian-Americans who've been here more than a single generation or have no clue about Asia what to call themselves too?

How many folks who call themsleves "Italian-American" or "Irish-American" actually have a clue about Irish or Italian culture? What'd the cut off? Should there be a test before some can use the hyphen?

I must repeat again - the discussion was about RACE, NOT CULTURE. Someone suggested that 'African American' was an OK term to describe black people and I pointed out the flaws, not least of which that not everybody from a certain continent is the same color, and not everyone of the same color is from the same continent. And I'm sorry, but telling people what continent you're from is not an indicator of what culture you're from, especially when Africa's such a huge one. Same with Asia (the largest). How does the term 'Asian American' describe ANYTHING about the culture of the person, when they could be from Japan, Hong Kong, Inner Mongolia, Vladivostok, India? They might as well call themselves an 'Eastern Hemispherical American'.

You wanna tell Asian-Americans who've been here more than a single generation or have no clue about Asia what to call themselves too?

Sigh. You wanna tell me that only white people are just 'Americans'?

Asians who are natively born in America are Americans - of Asian descent. The terms are stupid. They serve, mostly, to separate a minority from the main group. You think some kid who's great grandparents moved to the San Francisco in the late 1800's wants to be called 'Asian American', as if just 'American' wasn't good enough? Sorry, that's reserved for white people...

I remember a story from a black guy who was attending a local city meeting government meeting. A white guy gestured to him and started giving a speech about how proud he was that the town could have a harmonious mix of two different 'cultures'. The black guy responded, 'Two different cultures? I grew up down the street from you! Your culture IS my culture!'

Lastly, Asia and Europe are not separate continents. It's one continent, Eurasia. From Wiki: The separation of Eurasia into Europe and Asia is viewed by some as a residue of Eurocentrism: "In physical, cultural and historical diversity, China and India are comparable to the entire European landmass, not to a single European country. A better (if still imperfect) analogy would compare France, not to India as a whole, but to a single Indian state, such as Uttar Pradesh."[12]

 

[Nerys Myk]

You seem to be creating arguments for me rather than letting me do it.

.
I must repeat again - the discussion was about RACE, NOT CULTURE. Someone suggested that 'African American' was an OK term to describe black people and I pointed out the flaws, not least of which that not everybody from a certain continent is the same color, and not everyone of the same color is from the same continent. And I'm sorry, but telling people what continent you're from is not an indicator of what culture you're from, especially when Africa's such a huge one. Same with Asia (the largest). How does the term 'Asian American' describe ANYTHING about the culture of the person, when they could be from Japan, Hong Kong, Inner Mongolia, Vladivostok, India? They might as well call themselves an 'Eastern Hemispherical American'

I'm trying to understand why you object so much to Americans ( especially those of African decent) using the term "African-American". No it doesn't apply to all people in America who have origins on the African continent. Language can be complex and imprecise. But when we hear the term most of us get what it refers to. Same for Asian-American. If the case of the latter its more geographic than cultural. You gotta flow with it.

As I mention before a lot of African Americans do not have a specific "culture" in Africa that they can identify because of the whole slavery thing. So a new culture ( cultures) developed in America. That "culture" is African-American. Its blend of what survived the Atlantic crossing and what was waiting for them in America. And it has diversified as a time progressed.

Sigh. You wanna tell me that only white people are just 'Americans'?

Asians who are natively born in America are Americans - of Asian descent. The terms are stupid. They serve, mostly, to separate a minority from the main group. You think some kid who's great grandparents moved to the San Francisco in the late 1800's wants to be called 'Asian American', as if just 'American' wasn't good enough? Sorry, that's reserved for white people...

Where did I infer that only "white people" are Americans? I've mentioned various hyphenates that originated in Europe. White folks take pride in their ancestrial origins as well. We have parades and holidays that celebrate them. (As I've also mentioned)

"Asians who are natively born in America are Americans - of Asian descent." So a shorter way of saying that would be "Asian American".

What that kid in San Francisco wants to call himself is up to him. ( also a point I've made several times)

Lastly, Asia and Europe are not separate continents. It's one continent, Eurasia. From Wiki: The separation of Eurasia into Europe and Asia is viewed by some as a residue of Eurocentrism: "In physical, cultural and historical diversity, China and India are comparable to the entire European landmass, not to a single European country. A better (if still imperfect) analogy would compare France, not to India as a whole, but to a single Indian state, such as Uttar Pradesh."[12]

Did I say they were? What point are you trying to make here? That there are a variety of cultures in Asia and Europe? I dont recall disagreeing with that. Similarly, America is a diverse country as well. We have a wide range of regional cultures with idioms, food and beliefs unique to them. Some that were brought from the various points of origin of the colonists/pioneers/immigrants/settlers. Other developed in America. While modern communications/media/entertaiment seems to be creating a "mono-culture" we arent there yet. And we will be poorer for it if and when it happens.

 

[Anticitizen]

I'm trying to understand why you object so much to Americans ( especially those of African decent) using the term "African-American".

Well, I've repeated myself a number of times already, and I don't think I can make it any clearer than I already have, but I'll give it one last shot.

It's inaccurate, doesn't tell you anything, and more often than not leads to stereotyping, because people will tend to lump people in groups based on loose, inaccurate terms. A third-generation descendant of African slaves is going to have far less in common with a first-generation Kenyan that just got his citizenship. Also, it leads to ignorance, such as when people assume that 'African American' is synonymous for black. People do it all the time, even politicians and educators. They'll speak about blacks in america as 'African Americans', when there are Australians, islanders, etc whose heritage has nothing to do with Africa. It happened in this thread, which is why I spoke up about it - the sharp ridiculousness of Guinan, who, in the Star Trek universe isn't even human, was too painful for me to ignore. That's what happens when people use inaccurate terms and group things that shouldn't be grouped. Indians in the US never get called 'Asian Americans'. Why is that? Because there's a STEREOTYPE about Asians and how they look and behave. You seem to think that I'm being discriminatory in some way (especially with your comment that I must have forgotten about slavery), but what I'm arguing would actually do more to promote equality by eliminating gross stereotypes like "all black people are from Africa, all people from Africa are black, all Asians look Japanese", and so on.

The entire human race came from Africa, originally. I guess that makes everyone in America "African Americans."

Wanna be proud of your heritage? Fine... say so. But calling yourself Irish American doesn't make you Irish. You're a "white American of Irish descent". See? Descriptive. Accurate. A little bit more wordy, but what ya gonna do.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm trying to understand why you object so much to Americans ( especially those of African decent) using the term "African-American".

Well, I've repeated myself a number of times already, and I don't think I can make it any clearer than I already have, but I'll give it one last shot.

It's inaccurate, doesn't tell you anything, and more often than not leads to stereotyping, because people will tend to lump people in groups based on loose, inaccurate terms. A third-generation descendant of African slaves is going to have far less in common with a first-generation Kenyan that just got his citizenship. Also, it leads to ignorance, such as when people assume that 'African American' is synonymous for black. People do it all the time, even politicians and educators. They'll speak about blacks in america as 'African Americans', when there are Australians, islanders, etc whose heritage has nothing to do with Africa.

And I will repeat myself again: How is it innacurate? The folks to whom that terms applies are of African ancestry and are Americans. It can mean a recent immigrant, a 10th generation American or anyone in between. All that's required is a) their ancestry is from Africa and b) they are Americans. If you feel the need to "know more" strike up a conversation. Not all white folks are the same either. Even on islands like Britain and Ireland there is a variety of culture. Start with "Irish", "African" or "Asian" and work your way down to village and street if you must know. If not, just talk about the weather and sports. Maybe you're both Mets fans.

Yes there are Australians and Islanders who are dark skinned, but they arent from Africa so no one I know includes them under the "African-American" umbrella. Seems to me your problem is with the term "black" being used as synonym for "African-American", when a lot of people of non-African and non American origin are also darkskinned. Or when a non American from Africa is called "African-American". Yes thats just stupid. I shake my head when someone calls the Black Panther an African-American superhero. Is that what your "crusade" is about?

It happened in this thread, which is why I spoke up about it - the sharp ridiculousness of Guinan, who, in the Star Trek universe isn't even human, was too painful for me to ignore. That's what happens when people use inaccurate terms and group things that shouldn't be grouped.

The only mention of Guinan prior to your rant was:

If we do include aliens both Worf and Guinan were played by black actors.

No one said Guinan was "African-American", just that the actor playing her was black. And if you wish to define "black" as refering only to skin pigments and not point of origin, ( which you seem to be in favor of) then Guinin and Worf are black. Conversely, Soran and Martok I guess would be "white".

Indians in the US never get called 'Asian Americans'. Why is that? Because there's a STEREOTYPE about Asians and how they look and behave. You seem to think that I'm being discriminatory in some way (especially with your comment that I must have forgotten about slavery), but what I'm arguing would actually do more to promote equality by eliminating gross stereotypes like "all black people are from Africa, all people from Africa are black, all Asians look Japanese", and so on.

Thats because "Asian" in America refers to East Asians. Why because at first most Asian immigrants to America came from East Asia. We've come to associate the term with East Asians. Innacurate? Yes. A stereotype? Maybe.

"all black people are from Africa, all people from Africa are black, all Asians look Japanese",

You must run with an interesting crowd. I dont know anyone who has expressed this level of ignorance. Again, I think your problem is with the way "black" is used not "African-American".

What I think you forgotten is not slavery but the impact of slavery on the ability of, as you like to say, "Americans of African ancestry" to have a connection to their roots. They were stripped not only of their freedom but of their names, religion, language and heritage. The records do not include where Slave X came from, what tribe he belonged to or language he spoke. For Europeans and Asians there are records. So its easier to have that connection. I've traced my own ancestry back to Scotland, England, Ireland and oddly enough ( to me at least) Switzerland. For some "Americans of African ancestry" they can't even get out of the States before the trail goes cold.

The entire human race came from Africa, originally. I guess that makes everyone in America "African Americans."

Yes, very true. But not really what is meant by the term.

Wanna be proud of your heritage? Fine... say so. But calling yourself Irish American doesn't make you Irish. You're a "white American of Irish descent". See? Descriptive. Accurate. A little bit more wordy, but what ya gonna do.

Means the same thing don't it? Calling your self "Irish-American" makes you "Irish-American", nothing more complicatated than that. It infers a connection, real or imagined, to America and Ireland.

And why "White"? Some Europeans are quite dark. What does "White" tell you anyway? Totally innacurate.

 

[Anticitizen]

The only mention of Guinan prior to your rant was:

Wassail Drunk wrote:
If we do include aliens both Worf and Guinan were played by black actors.

No one said Guinan was "African-American", just that the actor playing her was black. And if you wish to define "black" as refering only to skin pigments and not point of origin, ( which you seem to be in favor of) then Guinin and Worf are black. Conversely, Soran and Martok I guess would be "white".

Yes, and then someone else suggested 'African American' as a synonym for 'black', which is what triggered my response. I just tied it back to Guinan as an example of the silliness of such a notion. I could've used Worf as an example as well.

Thats because "Asian" in America refers to East Asians. Why because at first most Asian immigrants to America came from East Asia. We've come to associate the term with East Asians. Innacurate? Yes. A stereotype? Maybe.

And that's mostly my point. Poor definitions lead to confusion, incorrect assumptions, and the continuation of stereotypes.

"all black people are from Africa, all people from Africa are black, all Asians look Japanese",

You must run with an interesting crowd. I dont know anyone who has expressed this level of ignorance.

It must be this crowd, because it was a post in this very thread that called it to my attention. I see it everywhere, though. You do too, though you apparently aren't looking for it. Watch a politician, journalist, coworker, random dude at the bar, whatever speak, and you'll hear it. Someone will say 'African Americans' when they're not intending to specifically speak about people of African descent - they're just using it as a 'politically correct' way to speak about blacks. It happens ALL THE TIME.

Again, I think your problem is with the way "black" is used not "African-American".

What makes you say that? I haven't had any problems with it so far. Guinan is black. Worf is black. Geordi is black. It's true for all three characters, even though they represent three completely different species.

What I think you forgotten is not slavery but the impact of slavery on the ability of, as you like to say, "Americans of African ancestry" to have a connection to their roots.

Look. I am starting to feel like I'm on an endless repeat cycle, because I keep having to say the same thing over and over again. I DO NOT CARE WHAT PEOPLE CALL THEMSELVES. It's using terms like 'African American' or 'Asian American' as blanket terms to describe people of a *RACE*, not a heritage, that I have a problem with - because white people can be 'African American' (which has NOTHING to do with slavery) and Indians can be 'Asian Americans', and so on and so forth.

Wanna be proud of your heritage? Fine... say so. But calling yourself Irish American doesn't make you Irish. You're a "white American of Irish descent". See? Descriptive. Accurate. A little bit more wordy, but what ya gonna do.

Means the same thing don't it? Calling your self "Irish-American" makes you "Irish-American", nothing more complicatated than that. It infers a connection, real or imagined, to America and Ireland.

And why "White"? Some Europeans are quite dark. What does "White" tell you anyway? Totally innacurate.

I didn't say all Europeans were white. I used 'white American of Irish descent' as a more accurate way to describe one's self than 'Irish American', that's all. Any stereotypes you see in that are imagined.

 

[Nerys Myk]

The only mention of Guinan prior to your rant was:

Wassail Drunk wrote:
If we do include aliens both Worf and Guinan were played by black actors.

No one said Guinan was "African-American", just that the actor playing her was black. And if you wish to define "black" as refering only to skin pigments and not point of origin, ( which you seem to be in favor of) then Guinin and Worf are black. Conversely, Soran and Martok I guess would be "white".

Yes, and then someone else suggested 'African American' as a synonym for 'black', which is what triggered my response. I just tied it back to Guinan as an example of the silliness of such a notion. I could've used Worf as an example as well.

Did he? Or did he state his preference? IIRC, Joel Kirk is black. So I assumed he was talking about his personal choice and would like to be called black rather than African-American. While N word variation were out.

And that's mostly my point. Poor definitions lead to confusion, incorrect assumptions, and the continuation of stereotypes.

No, ignorance and fear lead to the continuation of stereotypes.

Language is fluid and flexiible,( minds less so) English more so than others. Words evolve. Black can refer to a wide range of people. African-American is more specific. Both are curently "correct" when refering to Americans of African descent. I hear France has a pretty ridged attitude towards language. You might like it there.

It must be this crowd, because it was a post in this very thread that called it to my attention. I see it everywhere, though. You do too, though you apparently aren't looking for it. Watch a politician, journalist, coworker, random dude at the bar, whatever speak, and you'll hear it. Someone will say 'African Americans' when they're not intending to specifically speak about people of African descent - they're just using it as a 'politically correct' way to speak about blacks. It happens ALL THE TIME.

Do I? I cant imagine when that could happen. I can see using "African American" when one means African, but out side of that. Nope.

What makes you say that? I haven't had any problems with it so far. Guinan is black. Worf is black. Geordi is black. It's true for all three characters, even though they represent three completely different species.

Werent you just saying that Australians and Islanders are black?

Look. I am starting to feel like I'm on an endless repeat cycle, because I keep having to say the same thing over and over again. I DO NOT CARE WHAT PEOPLE CALL THEMSELVES. It's using terms like 'African American' or 'Asian American' as blanket terms to describe people of a *RACE*, not a heritage, that I have a problem with - because white people can be 'African American' (which has NOTHING to do with slavery) and Indians can be 'Asian Americans', and so on and so forth.

But you do care, or we wouldn't be having this conversation.You seem to think that folks use African-American or Asian-American as racial designations. When they refer to heritage/geography not race. There is no "African-American" race and no one I know of thinks there is.

Yes there are whites ( and Asians) in Africa. There are Asians in Europe. There are Whites in Asia. That doesn't really change the way we use these terms. In American English "African" and "Asian" have specific contextual definitions. It is some what archaic but the populations really havent shifted so much that change is going to happen.

I didn't say all Europeans were white. I used 'white American of Irish descent' as a more accurate way to describe one's self than 'Irish American', that's all. Any stereotypes you see in that are imagined.

Well that went over your head, didnt it?

As opposed to what? A black/brown/yellow/red American of Irish descent? The white part is pretty much inferred by Irish and is therefore redundant.

 

[Joel_Kirk]

[
Yes, and then someone else suggested 'African American' as a synonym for 'black', which is what triggered my response. I just tied it back to Guinan as an example of the silliness of such a notion. I could've used Worf as an example as well.

That someone was ME.

I consider both terms 'African-American'...and 'black' okay to describe ME....since I am such.

If a white person doesn't like that. Tough.

And that's mostly my point. Poor definitions lead to confusion, incorrect assumptions, and the continuation of stereotypes.

No stereotypes there, unless the individual (usually white) who objects the person of color who is comfortable with his or herself has some stereotypical thinking of their own.

It must be this crowd, because it was a post in this very thread that called it to my attention. I see it everywhere, though. You do too, though you apparently aren't looking for it. Watch a politician, journalist, coworker, random dude at the bar, whatever speak, and you'll hear it. Someone will say 'African Americans' when they're not intending to specifically speak about people of African descent - they're just using it as a 'politically correct' way to speak about blacks. It happens ALL THE TIME.

That is a stereotypical remark.

For one thing: African-Americans, Asian-Americans, Latin-Americans...are not monolithic people.

As aforementioned, I do hope your upset that people of color referring themselves to 'insert-American' is the same upset when white people refer to themselves as Irish-American, Italian, Russo-American, Franco-American...and flaunt their cultural pride.

Look. I am starting to feel like I'm on an endless repeat cycle, because I keep having to say the same thing over and over again. I DO NOT CARE WHAT PEOPLE CALL THEMSELVES.

Hmmm, one who doesn't care doesn't continually post that he is 'bugged' because (specifically 'African-Americans' like myself, and other people of color) refer to themselves with a certain name that defines their culture.

A lot of posting and rationalizing a bias for one who doesn't care, I think.

It's using terms like 'African American' or 'Asian American' as blanket terms to describe people of a *RACE*, not a heritage, that I have a problem with - because white people can be 'African American' (which has NOTHING to do with slavery) and Indians can be 'Asian Americans', and so on and so forth.

GOOD! No one said a white person cannot be African-American! Flaunt that pride! (If applicable)...

Blond-haired, blue-eyed Charlize Theron is 'African-American' but she still can't claim to have gone through the same struggles I have.

As possibly already aforementioned, 'African-American' is more than just a name. (The term has actually been in use before the 80s). In any event, I suggest reading up on African-American history...and the various names we call ourselves...(the negative and the positive names, and the different viewpoints in regards to those names).

 

[Kadratis]

Oh boy.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Blond-haired, blue-eyed Charlize Theron is 'African-American' but she still can't claim to have gone through the same struggles I have.

Strictly speaking, Charlize Theron is an African American of French/German descent.

 

[Anticitizen]

Holy Surak. Apparently, I'm speaking Klingon or something, because you keep responding that I don't think people should be proud or their heritage or some shit. You're completely missing the point.

There was also a 'black' captain. Oh frankly, I'd hate to use that term and differentiate a "white person" from a "black person".

I don't mind "black"...

"African-American" is okay...

Okay. See that? Right there? Where you said "African-American" is an okay way to differentiate between a white person or a black person?

There, Penguin, is an example of interchanging the terms that you say never happens. Right there.

I'm talking about race. RACE! Not heritage, culture, whatever. It's you guys that are bringing that stuff up. But all you're doing is using an alternate definition for the term "African (or whatever) American" by using it to describe culture and heritage. You're NOT addressing the complete lack of usefulness to describe race. "African American" and "Black" are NOT interchangeable. A person may be BOTH African American and black, but that doesn't mean they're synonyms. They're two different categories that can overlap, like a Venn diagram.

After culture was brought up, I made a completely separate point about its lack of usefulness in describing culture, by way of Africa being a huge continent, with very many different cultures. Hence my invocation of 'Asian American' as a counterexample - "Japanese-American" might have a utility in describing your heritage to someone. "Indian American" might as well, once you clarify that you're not talking about aboriginal Americans. But "Asian American" is so broad and so vague, covering hundreds of cultures across the largest continent in the world, so as to be completely useless. It describes precisely *neither* race nor culture.

As aforementioned, I do hope your upset that people of color referring themselves to 'insert-American' is the same upset when white people refer to themselves as Irish-American, Italian, Russo-American, Franco-American...and flaunt their cultural pride.

I addressed it in my second post in this thread on the topic.

A lot of posting and rationalizing a bias for one who doesn't care, I think.

I don't care what people call themselves. Charlize can call herself an "African American" all she wants. All I've done is point out the complete lack of utility of the term to describe race, and, secondary, the lack of utility of the term to describe a culture, as there's no such thing as 'African culture'. There are many African cultures.

I own and have read Narrative of the Life of Frederick Douglass. Is that a good start?

 

[Anticitizen]

I actually want to do a project in the future about how Trek isn't as progressive as it claims; and I'm keeping track of threads like this that pop up. (It's some good and interesting stuff).

I missed this the first time around. In that regard, one could look at how Trek portrays each alien race as being one stereotypical group, with the same language, religion, etc. The Klingon Language. The Vulcan Philosphy. Etc.

You know, just like how most people think of 'Asian Americans'.