Except when they're not, but that's not really the point right now. My point is you can't arbitrarily define things to be the way you want them to be so you can reject everything that contradicts it.
Is the Federation an Empire?
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Except when they're not, but that's not really the point right now. My point is you can't arbitrarily define things to be the way you want them to be so you can reject everything that contradicts it.
That would shut down a lot of conversation on the board.
I don't know if anyone mentioned it yet, but Captain Pike referred to the Federation - or was it 'Starfleet'? It seems the two are interchangeable or even one entity in the Abramsverse - as a 'peacekeeping armada.'
We haven't really seen the various opinions on this 'armada' from outside worlds. And, I'm assuming those opinions would vary.
We haven't really seen the various opinions on this 'armada' from outside worlds. And, I'm assuming those opinions would vary.
That would shut down a lot of conversation on the board.
I would hardly call that a conversation anyway.
If your presence were effectively withholding the cure for dozens of fatal diseases, it might. Especially if "themselves" constitutes billions of people.
Very true.That would shut down a lot of conversation on the board.
I would hardly call that a conversation anyway.
That's why the Kulaks had to go.
If your presence were effectively withholding the cure for dozens of fatal diseases, it might. Especially if "themselves" constitutes billions of people.
Duchess will do quite nicely, thank you.
It was one of the episodes with Kor in it, he spoke of fighting a battle there.
The episode The Augments make no mention of the region being either claimed or unclaimed at the time. However the region is known by the Klingon name, Klach D'kel Brakt.
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Kidnapping and theft are still illegal.
As for the 'cure' for 'billions': Would it still be justified if the 2 people in the house were KILLED for that cure? I'll just hazard a guess that it wouldn't. So if that's not justified, then neither is kidnapping the occupants and stealing the house.
The law is the law.
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Would it be justified if the 2 people in the house were merely moved off to one side for that cure?
Define "off to one side".
If your presence were effectively withholding the cure for dozens of fatal diseases, it might. Especially if "themselves" constitutes billions of people.
Would it be justified if the 2 people in the house were merely moved off to one side for that cure?
The problem with this entire line of thought is it has nothing to do with the movie. Dougherty's only selling point for this 'wonderdrug' is that it will double lifespans. Not cure every disease the federation can't cure. It's a fountain of youth, not a fountain of lourdes.
There is no reasonable morality where you can force people out of their homes for nothing more than getting a little bit more of what you already have more than enough of. The federation has great life expectancy (except for redshirts). They don't even need a damn fountain of youth.
And even if my living in my house was standing in the way of some miracle cure, the only reasonable, moral thing to do is to talk to me about what's going on and why my going somewhere else will help people. Kidnapping me is flat out wrong.
BTW, from the Ent ep 'The Augments':
"SOONG: Once we're safely through Klingon space, we'll set a course for these co-ordinates. The Klingons call it Klach D'kel Brakt. I call it the Briar Patch. It's a little catchier, don't you think?
LOKESH: Briar Patch?
SOONG: You should have read more of the books I left for you. The region is flooded with radiation from supernova remnants. The Klingons have never mapped it. There are signs of at least two habitable planets inside the Briar Patch. It's unlikely anyone will find us."
So, we arrive at the Briar patch *after* we're safely through Klingon space, and, also, the Klingons have never mapped the region. Sounds unclaimed to me.
ETA: I found the DS9 ep. It was 'Blood Oath', and the only information it provides is that the Battle of Klach D'kel brakt was a great Klingon victory over the romulans in the late 2200s ('almost a century ago' was the exact phrase used). Clearly it occurred long after the Baku settlement, and even more interestingly, the episode doesn't ever even say that the Klingons or the Romulans ever claimed the briar patch at all. For all we know the Battle of Klach D'Kel Brakt was just a famous battle between the Klingon and Romulan fleets that just happened to take place in the briar patch (like how the battle between Kirk and Khan just happened to take place in that nebula).
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Of course. Two things, far enough away that the two people would not be harmed by the extraction of the cure, and far enough away the the two people would not interfere with the extract of the cure.
Curing every known disease? Probably not. However, curing many still common diseases would be one way of further extending life spans. So Humans go from 150 years to 300, and Vulcans go from 250 years to half a millennium.
Two of the most common Vulcan saying are "live long and prosper" and "peace and long life." Vulcans would appear to place value on longevity.
Today if someone in their forties developed cancer, and a new treatment cured it, you would basically be doubling their lives. On top of that, there are currently cure/treatments for some cancers, but they are (to say the least) extremely uncomfortable.
So the treatment by the particles could replace Federation cures that already exist.
Two things.
One, how do you get from the Klingon don't claim something to it's automatically unclaimed? In the dialog you yourself posted there was no mention of the area being unclaimed.
Two, A people or a nation can claim something without it being considered part of their territory. A good example of this would be modern day "exclusive economic zones" which are outside of territorial limits but are claimed by nations for their exclusive use and control.
Why would it be worth noting that the Klingons apparently never mapped the Brier Patch if they never claimed it and they didn't consider it a part of Klingon space? I would imagine grendelsbayne there are vast portions of the Milky Way galaxy that the Klingons haven't mapped.
So why would Soong mention that the Klingon haven't mapped it it unless that non-mapping was in some way unusual? If it were in fact a claimed area by the Klingons, and they hadn't mapped it, that would be unusual.
If it wasn't Klingon claimed space, it's not being mapped by them would be pretty standard.
If those cures already exist, the Federation doesn't need the particles. Also, this entire tack is an assumption on your part. The movie doesn't ever say 'this will cure terrible uncurable diseases'. The particles may simply make healthy people live longer.
It's absolutely not indisputable proof that it was unclaimed. But it is evidence that the entire argument about the area being 'previously claimed' is entirely unsupported. There is no canon proof that anyone else ever claimed the briar patch before the Federation. Sure it's possible, but the only two canon facts we have are: 1) the Federation claimed the area at least during the late 24th cen. and 2) the Baku were living there since before the Federation even existed. Lacking any other information, the Federation claim is clearly weaker than the Baku's (in terms of any fair legal definition, obviously not in terms of who has the most military strength to back them up).
Why would it be worth noting that the Klingons apparently never mapped the Brier Patch if they never claimed it and they didn't consider it a part of Klingon space? I would imagine grendelsbayne there are vast portions of the Milky Way galaxy that the Klingons haven't mapped.
So why would Soong mention that the Klingon haven't mapped it it unless that non-mapping was in some way unusual? If it were in fact a claimed area by the Klingons, and they hadn't mapped it, that would be unusual.
If it wasn't Klingon claimed space, it's not being mapped by them would be pretty standard.
It seemed clear to me that he was mentioning it to let the audience/crew know that there was no chance of anyone finding them there. 'Even the Klingons (the largest nearby power) don't bother exploring this area, so we're definitely going to be safe from detection here', etc.
To all those who think that Section 31 is legitimate and that it actually is part of the Federation government: Remember, Section 31 answers to NO ONE. Just think about that for a minute. They don't report to the President, or to the Council, or to anyone at all. They quite literally do whatever they want. They have absolutely no oversight or accountability of any kind. Hell, during DS9's last seasons, one of President Jaresh-Inyo's cabinet officials was a S31 spy! Now tell me, how can THAT be legitimate?
And there's no assurance that, if the plan had gone through, it would have even worked at all. We saw it work in the movie, but that was part of the natural environment of the Ba'ku planet. If they tried to replicate it elsewhere, who's to say what would have happened?
And there's no assurance that, if the plan had gone through, it would have even worked at all. We saw it work in the movie, but that was part of the natural environment of the Ba'ku planet. If they tried to replicate it elsewhere, who's to say what would have happened?
Is there any reason to think the Klach D'kel Brakt is the same thing as the Briar Patch from Insurrection? They could both just be references to B'rer Rabbit.
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Arik Soong specifically says it is.
If your presence were effectively withholding the cure for dozens of fatal diseases, it might. Especially if "themselves" constitutes billions of people.
That's why we have a little thing called eminant domain, the Government can force you to move but they have to compensate you. But in the case of the Ba'ku eminant domain doesn't apply as the planet was not a Federation Member or a colony world of a Federation member the Federation had no right to relocate people who had been living on it since before the Federation existed.
If your presence were effectively withholding the cure for dozens of fatal diseases, it might. Especially if "themselves" constitutes billions of people.
That's why we have a little thing called eminant domain, the Government can force you to move but they have to compensate you.
Well after the condemnation proceeding.
He specifically says it's the same place where events occur 200 years later? He says it's the Briar Patch, yes, but he also says it's what he calls it.
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