is the D'deridex descended from the D7/K't'inga?

[Arpy]

What are you on about? It's an alternate universe. Just one were humans started a brutal expansionist empire.

What are you off about? That's an interpretation of the Mirror Universe but the Mirror Universe is really just a bit of absurd TV fun. A bit of dress up masquerading as quantum physics. Well, it's not the Mirror Universe if it's not a mirror universe. DSC goes so far as to say that it's due to nothing less than a chimeric strain at the subatomic level in their stem cells....they all done got little demons in their subatoms.

 

[Ithekro]

Mind you the Gorn that was seen was at a Tholian controlled installation working on a captured Federation starship.

 

[evilchumlee]

What are you on about? It's an alternate universe. Just one were humans started a brutal expansionist empire.

TOS implied to it be very close to the Prime universe, down to the crew being on literally the same mission.

It's drifted since then to be... much more different.

 

[Praetor]

True. And it makes even less sense for 22nd century Klingons to be using Birds of Prey, considering that their alliance with the Romulans wasn't until 100 years later, so they would have no reason to have ships resembling birds in the 2150's. The fact that ENT showed this essentially means that two completely different alien races have a bird motif in common with their ships for no reason whatsoever.

It also made no sense for the 22nd century Romulans to possess cloaking devices on their ships. But ENT showed that as well for no real good reason.

There was also that line in "Broken Bow" that referred to Klingon ships as "warbirds."

Perhaps "warbird" is the English translation of a related Vulcan/Romulan words for "warship"?

 

[Dukhat]

There was also that line in "Broken Bow" that referred to Klingon ships as "warbirds."

Perhaps "warbird" is the English translation of a related Vulcan/Romulan words for "warship"?

I just ignored that reference for the script mistake it was. Because the writers of a show taking place 100 years before TOS could never get TNG out of their heads. That's the inherent flaw of a TOS prequel, a lesson that still hasn't been learned in CBS Trek.

 

[MikHutch]

ya plus the K't'inga showed up there nearly a century before it was supposed to

Ent was the first Trek show i ever saw from beginning to end (I was too young for Voy & DS9) and looking back on it now, it wasn't a great prequel. Warbird is Romulan, not Klingon

the best thing it did was flesh out the Andorians. I wish the Tellarites and Orions got similar support but what can you do?

I did like the proto versions of the Klingon & Romulan BoPs from the show though

 

[Ithekro]

Orions get some support with Lower Decks.

 

[MikHutch]

Orions get some support with Lower Decks.

true. i should've been clear I mainly meant on Enterprise

although I now wonder: did TOS/TAS fans actually care that most species from those series never appeared in TNG/DS9/Voy?

 

[Ithekro]

I think in TNG people were wanting new rather than rehashed. In DS9 the story was mostly in a fixed location on what should have been the other side of the Federation from where Kirk was operating. But there were always questions about the TOS races that were not Klingons. VOY of course was in another quadrant of the galaxy. Not going to run into many old races there.

The first actual new steps to knowing the Orions was ENT, but that was so late in the series that it couldn't be expanded on.

 

[Dukhat]

The first actual new steps to knowing the Orions was ENT, but that was so late in the series that it couldn't be expanded on.

Honestly, the Orions should have been the main protagonists from the start. Not the Klingons. There should have been zero Klingons in that show. They were done to fucking death.

 

[MikHutch]

I think in TNG people were wanting new rather than rehashed. In DS9 the story was mostly in a fixed location on what should have been the other side of the Federation from where Kirk was operating. But there were always questions about the TOS races that were not Klingons. VOY of course was in another quadrant of the galaxy. Not going to run into many old races there.

The first actual new steps to knowing the Orions was ENT, but that was so late in the series that it couldn't be expanded on.

because they spent so much time on the Suliban and Xindi

Honestly, the Orions should have been the main protagonists from the start. Not the Klingons. There should have been zero Klingons in that show. They were done to fucking death.

I can't imagine they do a prequel without Klingons but they're definitely overused. The Orions could've replaced the Suliban

 

[Dukhat]

I can't imagine they do a prequel without Klingons but they're definitely overused. The Orions could've replaced the Suliban

There was no reason for the Klingons to be on that show. Everything the Klingons did could have been done by the Orions.

 

[Praetor]

There was no reason for the Klingons to be on that show. Everything the Klingons did could have been done by the Orions.

I couldn't agree more. The Klingon appearance in the pilot was one of the initial things that put me off.

 

[Arpy]

I mean for the time period they could have used the Orions, Kzinti, and others. To an extent maybe even the Andorians. The tension between the Vulcans and the Andorian Empire alone was dramatic. The Klingons could have been saved for some big season finale. A disastrous first contact at Station Salem One maybe….should that have been the Romulans?

 

[evilchumlee]

There was no reason for the Klingons to be on that show. Everything the Klingons did could have been done by the Orions.

Klingons absolutely needed to be on ENT. Klingons are quintessential to Star Trek.

I do agree that they should have used something like Orions in place of the Suliban. What they really didn't need was to make a new race... er, twice. We didn't need the Xindi, either.

Honestly the Klingons should have been the Xindi and the Suliban should been the Orions.

I think we can still keep the setup of the Klingons from the pilot. But then when it comes time for the Xindi, have it be a Klingon attack on Earth. Earth is now at war, but we have so few resources. NX-01 is sent out to Klingon space in an attempt to find a resolution to the conflict, given that Earth stands absolutely no chance in an actual war. Eventually, it all gets resolved for the time being when Archer/Earth finally just say screw it and basically launch a suicide strike on Qo'nos. They do some damage and eventually the Klingons are just like "Ok..ok... you humans do have some honor afterall" and that's enough to satisfy the war... they only attacked Earth to begin with due to feeling humans were an easy target and had no honor. Humans proved them wrong, and the Klingons were ok with it... kind of turning it into an idea of that's almost how Klingon first contact works in their culture. If they don't think your strong, they attack. If you prove your strength and resolve, they'll back off.

A disastrous first contact at Station Salem One maybe….should that have been the Romulans?

Salem One has no actual defined time. I like to actually put that as the start of the Cardassian Wars. When Picard mentions it, it's the most topical sneak attack having been a pretty recent thing.

 

[Praetor]

@evilchumlee I don't hate that. So the Romulan War is when war REALLY comes?

 

[Arpy]

I think if the humans attacked the Klingon homeworld there wouldn’t be a human homeworld. It’d be all the reason they’d need to conquer us and, you know, be the Klingon Empire.

I’m fine with leaving the Klingons more DSC’s or a 23rd Century villain. The 22nd could show them as a powerful distant threat we don’t want to mess with. Maybe punctuated by Archer witnessing what happens to those that do.

There were few Klingons on VOY. Few in 32nd century DSC. Hell, they only showed up a handful of times in TOS. ENT could have done the same. Lots of other baddies to play with in the 22nd century.

 

[Dukhat]

Klingons absolutely needed to be on ENT. Klingons are quintessential to Star Trek.

No. They are more overused than the Borg. As a matter of fact, they were so overused that someone decided that they and their ships had to look completely different just so that they could be used again without appearing like they were going down the same tired old road with them again. And that proved to be an even bigger disaster.

@evilchumlee I don't hate that. So the Romulan War is when war REALLY comes?

I always felt Salem One had something to do with the Tomed Incident.

 

[evilchumlee]

@evilchumlee I don't hate that. So the Romulan War is when war REALLY comes?

Yeah. The Romulan War should be like, the FIRST war. There can be conflicts.

I think if the humans attacked the Klingon homeworld there wouldn’t be a human homeworld. It’d be all the reason they’d need to conquer us and, you know, be the Klingon Empire.

Maybe not the homeworld, but the entire idea is a riff on "different cultures value different things". The "disastrous first contact" with the Klingons was entirely because Earth, in trying to be diplomatic, showed extreme weakness and insulted the Klingons (they captured a Klingon warrior, denied him an honorable death, and then came to their world to... talk? WTF? To the Klingons, those are some of the worst possible things you can do, and Archer condemned 3 generations of Klaangs family.)

The idea would be that Earth FINALLY learns how to deal with the Klingons. They respect strength and their definition of honor. Challenging you to a fight is the Klingons form of first contact procedure. The "twist" of the story here is that the Klingons were actually giving Earth a "second chance" of sorts. They weren't out for just a random hostile war. They were out to basically give Earth a mulligan of first contact and give them a chance to prove themselves.

I’m fine with leaving the Klingons more DSC’s or a 23rd Century villain. The 22nd could show them as a powerful distant threat we don’t want to mess with. Maybe punctuated by Archer witnessing what happens to those that do.

That (should have) been the Romulans.

It's not really the shows fault because it was cancelled before they thought it would be, but ENT probably should have started a few years later. The Xindi War at that point would have just been... the Romulan War. I actually think a good deal of the stuff with the expanse would work well as a beginning part of the Romulan War, obviously with some tweaks. I like the idea of NX-01 in a mysterious area of space trying to hunt down information on the Romulans. (I'm working that into my personal Trek reboot universe, the Romulans just replace the Xindi and the whole thing happens later)

No. They are more overused than the Borg. As a matter of fact, they were so overused that someone decided that they and their ships had to look completely different just so that they could be used again without appearing like they were going down the same tired old road with them again. And that proved to be an even bigger disaster.

DSC didn't actually HAVE to make any of those changes.

I always felt Salem One had something to do with the Tomed Incident.

Also totally possible, although the one thing we do know is that the attack on Salem One was a "prelude to war", which I would interpret as... a war broke out. Tomed was a potential war that didn't happen.

 

[Ithekro]

Maybe instead of the Xindi or Klingons it was the Vegan Tyranny.