Is Starfleet Too Powerful?

[The Wormhole]

Absolutely. If it's the case of a starship happening upon a new civilization, then it makes sense that starship would make first contact. But if a new civilization has been found and a starship is specifically dispatched to make first contact, they should be able to bring a diplomat on.

I was thinking of situations like in the TNG episode First Contact. The Federation is obviously aware of the aliens in that episode as there is a Starfleet team in deep cover on the planet monitoring them until such time as their culture is ready to make contact, which Picard and Deanna do in this episode. Even taking into account their making contact was more of an emergency situation brought on by them losing contact with Riker, you'd think there'd be someone from the Federation's diplomatic service involved with the matter who would be if not on board the Enterprise, at least based close enough near by that they could arrive relatively quickly in order to handle the first contact protocols.

Hell, the episode says the whole reason teams are sent in undercover is to prevent disastrous first contacts that result when there was too much ignorance about the race they were making contact with. Yet the matter of making contact is still an exclusively Starfleet matter rather than having any kind of government oversight with an actual diplomat present.

It bears repeating that Starfleet officers, including top admirals, members of Starfleet Command, tried to assassinate their own president. Yet, from what we can tell, it had absolutely no effect on the enormous trust the Federation places in Starfleet.

It is a rather troubling sign of how much trouble the Federation must be in if so many Starfleet Admirals turn out to be renegades and/or outright evil. Utopia seems to breed corruption.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Isn't it a little concerning that making first contact seems to be exclusively handled by the military/space exploration service? That's something the politicians and diplomats should be extensively involved with.

Though this reminds me of the weirdness on DS9 when Bajor was going to join the Federation and there was no one from the Federation or Bajoran government present. The actual signing was going to be handled by a Starfleet Admiral and the leader of Bajor's dominant religion. Really? Both the military and the church are handling matters of state?

That's the way it's been setup to work.

::

 

[Sci]

Or then there's the fact that Starfleet seems to manufacture its own equipment and ships. I guess there are no corporations for Starfleet to contract that out to?

Well, it depends on what you mean by "corporation." But in a world that's not driven by greed anymore and capitalism is dead, I would certainly hope that corporations as we think of them today are gone.

But setting that aside... why would they use another organization? Resources exist in a state of abundance. Why add in a middle man?

Even dragging The Argument into this matter, don't even get me started on the supposedly non-military Starfleet giving its Starship Captains the right to decide to completely obliterate all life on a planet. In today's militaries, it takes a flag officer with direct authorization from the head of state just to launch one nuke. But a Starfleet Captain, who is supposedly a peaceful explorer can decide on their own to completely annihilate all life on a planet.

For whatever it's worth, the novel A Time to Kill by David Mack established that there exists an amendment to the Federation Charter banning Starfleet from exterminating planetary surfaces, known as the Eminiar Amendment.

That at least could be based on the fact that in the US, the Joint Chiefs also have seats in Congress.

After reading Ottens's post in response to what I said, I'm thinking I massively misunderstood something I was half-remembering from a Tom Clancy novel. My apologies if needed, and feel free to disregard the comment accordingly.

No worries! If I may indulge in my tendency to be a pedant, I just want to note that the source of your confusion likely stems from the fact that the Joint Chiefs of Staff are allowed to sit in the Chamber of the House of Representatives during State of the Union addresses and other presidential addresses (and I believe other VIP addresses to Congress). That is a courtesy extended to them alongside other non-Members, such as the Chief Justice and Associate Justices of the U.S. Supreme Court and members of the Cabinet, for those special occasions; only United States Representatives and United States Senators may vote in sessions of the House and Senate, and only Representatives and territorial delegates to the U.S. House may vote in House committees.

In point of fact, the Joint Chiefs of Staff technically don't even have the legal authority to issue operational orders and are not part of the chain of command. The legal chain of command flows from the President, to the Secretary of Defense, to the Commanders of the Unified Combatant Commands. The Joint Chiefs and their Chair are considered legal advisers to the President and Secretary of Defense, empowered to transmit orders from the President or Secretary but not to issue orders themselves.

Isn't it a little concerning that making first contact seems to be exclusively handled by the military/space exploration service? That's something the politicians and diplomats should be extensively involved with.

Well, I'm not sure how practical it would be for a civilian diplomat to be assigned to a starship that's deployed far beyond Federation space in unexplored territory long-term. To me, the idea that Starfleet captains are extensively trained in Federation diplomatic protocol and receive the appropriate guidance to enact Federation foreign policy when new administrations come to office seems seems like an allowable compromise, especially since there is real-life precedent for that back in the Age of Sail.

Though this reminds me of the weirdness on DS9 when Bajor was going to join the Federation and there was no one from the Federation or Bajoran government present. The actual signing was going to be handled by a Starfleet Admiral and the leader of Bajor's dominant religion. Really? Both the military and the church are handling matters of state?

There actually were civilian Federation diplomats at the signing. But yes, it's a little weird how an admiral seemed to be in charge.

For better or for worse, it does seem like the Republic of Bajor has a state religion and does not separate church and state. We know from DS9 S3 that when the incumbent First Minister died, Kai Winn assumed office on an interim basis; it is possible therefore that the Kai is technically the Bajoran head of state and the First Minister the head of government, in which case of course the Kai would be the ones to sign the accession documents that make the Republic of Bajor a Federation Member State.

I suspect separation of church and state might just not be a requirement of Federation Member States, so long as Member States don't actually discriminate against minority religions.

I agree Starfleet has that vibe in Kirk's time, but not by the time of Picard's, who can seemingly always communicate with Starfleet Command instantly.

I think that's more a reflection of how the writers ended up keeping the Enterprise-D in or near UFP space during most of TNG and haven't really set a show far beyond UFP borders since TOS other than VOY.[/QUOTE]

 

[dupersuper]

We know from DS9 S3 that when the incumbent First Minister died, Kai Winn assumed office on an interim basis; it is possible therefore that the Kai is technically the Bajoran head of state and the First Minister the head of government

Yeah, she was First Minister until Shakaar was elected.

 

[TommyR01D]

Well, it depends on what you mean by "corporation." But in a world that's not driven by greed anymore and capitalism is dead, I would certainly hope that corporations as we think of them today are gone.

But setting that aside... why would they use another organization? Resources exist in a state of abundance. Why add in a middle man?

"Corporation" doesn't have any particular moral implications, of course. Government departments themselves could be considered corporations, including Starfleet. Certainly everything on screen indicates that Starfleet handles its own shipbuilding instead of contracting it out to someone else.

No worries! If I may indulge in my tendency to be a pedant, I just want to note that the source of your confusion likely stems from the fact that the Joint Chiefs of Staff are allowed to sit in the Chamber of the House of Representatives during State of the Union addresses and other presidential addresses (and I believe other VIP addresses to Congress). That is a courtesy extended to them alongside other non-Members, such as the Chief Justice and Associate Justices of the U.S. Supreme Court and members of the Cabinet, for those special occasions; only United States Representatives and United States Senators may vote in sessions of the House and Senate, and only Representatives and territorial delegates to the U.S. House may vote in House committees.

In point of fact, the Joint Chiefs of Staff technically don't even have the legal authority to issue operational orders and are not part of the chain of command. The legal chain of command flows from the President, to the Secretary of Defense, to the Commanders of the Unified Combatant Commands. The Joint Chiefs and their Chair are considered legal advisers to the President and Secretary of Defense, empowered to transmit orders from the President or Secretary but not to issue orders themselves.

Similarly there are a few dozen senior judges, military officers and foreign diplomats, plus the wives of peers, seated in the Lords chamber for the state opening. That does not make them members either.

For better or for worse, it does seem like the Republic of Bajor has a state religion and does not separate church and state. We know from DS9 S3 that when the incumbent First Minister died, Kai Winn assumed office on an interim basis; it is possible therefore that the Kai is technically the Bajoran head of state and the First Minister the head of government, in which case of course the Kai would be the ones to sign the accession documents that make the Republic of Bajor a Federation Member State.

That's the impression I always got, if only because "First Minister" is not a title heads of state normally use. Then again, that could just be the writers not knowing the difference, or the universal translator playing up. Is it ever properly explained how the FM is elected, or how the rest of the Bajoran political system works?

I suspect separation of church and state might just not be a requirement of Federation Member States, so long as Member States don't actually discriminate against minority religions.

Obviously it's not a requirement for the UN or EU, both of which are often touted as the UFP's spiritual ancestors.

 

[Ottens]

For whatever it's worth, the novel A Time to Kill by David Mack established that there exists an amendment to the Federation Charter banning Starfleet from exterminating planetary surfaces, known as the Eminiar Amendment.

The fact that such a law might be necessary is not exactly reassuring!

 

[fireproof78]

The fact that such a law might be necessary is not exactly reassuring!

Not necessarily. As power output increases, regulation of said power would be appropriate.

 

[The Wormhole]

Well, it depends on what you mean by "corporation." But in a world that's not driven by greed anymore and capitalism is dead, I would certainly hope that corporations as we think of them today are gone.

But setting that aside... why would they use another organization? Resources exist in a state of abundance. Why add in a middle man?

I would think it a more logical use of Starfleet's resources to be used towards doing their job of exploring space and defending the Federation rather than using their resources to develop and build the ships and equipment they need to do their jobs. As I assume that's the other big reason besides pesky capitalism that militaries today contract that stuff out rather than doing it themselves.

 

[Ottens]

I was thinking of situations like in the TNG episode First Contact. The Federation is obviously aware of the aliens in that episode as there is a Starfleet team in deep cover on the planet monitoring them until such time as their culture is ready to make contact, which Picard and Deanna do in this episode. Even taking into account their making contact was more of an emergency situation brought on by them losing contact with Riker, you'd think there'd be someone from the Federation's diplomatic service involved with the matter who would be if not on board the Enterprise, at least based close enough near by that they could arrive relatively quickly in order to handle the first contact protocols.

I think I can say without giving away any Discovery spoilers that the series is showing improvement in this regard.

 

[STEPhon IT]

This. And it's not a hypothetical power either. We get several examples of captains abusing this power, or threatening to.

Sad there was a series of bad writing which represents the organization as a whole.

 

[publiusr]

With power generation and FTL being effortless in Trek, showing the flag lest Cardassians do worse is all about vacuum filling. If a Fed ship isn’t there…another will be.

You could make a better “hands off” argument for the situation we have now where interstellar travel is tough to the point it is unilateral. But the tyranny or the rocket equation takes care of that on its own.

If we found a wormhole and put an Orion pusher plate battleship in the Trappist system….there would be no stopping it….though it would likely be barren anyway….in need of Johnny Appleseed.

 

[Imaus]

Great examples given above from Wormhole and Tommy. Starfleet responding in Nawlins especially raises an eyebrow.

There definitely should be a lot more civilian organizations. Even at the height of the British reach over the world, Navy Corpsmen wouldn't be treating a wounded commander if he got into a barfight in South London (generally). It's definitely something Star Trek could expand on.

The Diplomat situation as well. Picard or Riker going down, or Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, always felt a little odd. Sure, we can say 'it's TV, we need to see the characters doing something!' - then why not have a diplomat character on the main cast?

 

[JesterFace]

All cultures come and go eventually no matter how strong they are.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

All cultures come and go eventually no matter how strong they are.

What about "The Q"?

 

[JesterFace]

What about "The Q"?

Is Q a culture? =) Qulture?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

"Corporation" doesn't have any particular moral implications, of course.

And there IS at least one corporation in Trek that we've seen (or at least heard of): the Dytallix Mining Corporation from TNG's "Conspiracy".

Starfleet responding in Nawlins especially raises an eyebrow.

No, not really.

It's fairly well known that they were going to have local United Earth defense forces in the Homefront/Paradise Lost arc but it got cut because there were simply too many organizations at work and it would have confused the viewer. So it's simply easier, from a dramatic perspective, to have Starfleet handle it.

Besides, there's a ready-made excuse: it was all part of Leyton's conspiracy.

 

[fireproof78]

And for Leyton's conspiracy to work already demonstrates Starfleet being too powerful.

 

[The Wormhole]

It's fairly well known that they were going to have local United Earth defense forces in the Homefront/Paradise Lost arc but it got cut because there were simply too many organizations at work and it would have confused the viewer. So it's simply easier, from a dramatic perspective, to have Starfleet handle it.

Besides, there's a ready-made excuse: it was all part of Leyton's conspiracy.

Except, we weren't talking about Homefront/Paradise Lost, but rather the season 7 premiere Image in the Sand when Sisko was stabbed by the Pah Wraith cultist. It makes no sense for Starfleet to have handled that matter, nor can it be blamed Leyton or his conspiracy, since it was foiled two and a half years prior to this incident.

Hell, since the response was referenced rather than seen, we can't even blame budgetary convenience. Would a reference to the cultist having been apprehended by New Orleans police and Sisko being looked after at a civilian hospital really have "confused the viewer"? It really had to be Starfleet doing both for simplicity sake?

Hell if anything the matter as presented is pretty damn confusing, if the first responders to a crime in New Orleans are coming from San Francisco. To say nothing if it being the military or space explorers being the ones who respond to a crime in New Orleans.

 

[Nyotarules]

Except, we weren't talking about Homefront/Paradise Lost, but rather the season 7 premiere Image in the Sand when Sisko was stabbed by the Pah Wraith cultist. It makes no sense for Starfleet to have handled that matter, nor can it be blamed Leyton or his conspiracy, since it was foiled two and a half years prior to this incident.

Hell, since the response was referenced rather than seen, we can't even blame budgetary convenience. Would a reference to the cultist having been apprehended by New Orleans police and Sisko being looked after at a civilian hospital really have "confused the viewer"? It really had to be Starfleet doing both for simplicity sake?

Hell if anything the matter as presented is pretty damn confusing, if the first responders to a crime in New Orleans are coming from San Francisco. To say nothing if it being the military or space explorers being the ones who respond to a crime in New Orleans.

ITA, in this case, the writers were not thinking things through OR the UFP is set up that Starfleet does everything, there is no separation between judicial, executive and the legislator. The UFP is just the Confederation without the legal alien prejudice

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Except, we weren't talking about Homefront/Paradise Lost, but rather the season 7 premiere Image in the Sand when Sisko was stabbed by the Pah Wraith cultist. It makes no sense for Starfleet to have handled that matter, nor can it be blamed Leyton or his conspiracy, since it was foiled two and a half years prior to this incident.

Hell, since the response was referenced rather than seen, we can't even blame budgetary convenience. Would a reference to the cultist having been apprehended by New Orleans police and Sisko being looked after at a civilian hospital really have "confused the viewer"? It really had to be Starfleet doing both for simplicity sake?

Hell if anything the matter as presented is pretty damn confusing, if the first responders to a crime in New Orleans are coming from San Francisco. To say nothing if it being the military or space explorers being the ones who respond to a crime in New Orleans.

He's not saying that you are literally talking about Homefront / Paradise Lost, he's comparing a production decision made during that episode to the similar situation experienced in Image in the Sand, which both involve crimes or potential crimes committed in New Orleans (and San Francisco) against Starfleet personnel and their families by non-Federation aliens that relate to larger issues outside of Earth jurisdiction.

If the producers felt it was too confusing for the audience to have an Earthbound organization responding to the shapeshifter infiltration rather than Starfleet, than they probably would have concluded the same thing about having someone other than Starfleet respond to the Pah Wraith Cultist stabbing.

Personally, I don't think they're really giving the audience enough credit and they would have been able to understand the difference just fine, but whatever. That's the choice they went with.

From an in-universe POV, you could also justify it by saying that both the shapeshifter infiltration and the Pah Wraith cult stabbing of Ben Sisko fall under Starfleet Security jurisdiction because:

— Would fall under terrorism / espionage (Changelings) / assassination which typically fall under federal rather than local jurisdiction as the lead agency (though local law enforcement does investigate and assist as well).
— Of an intergalactic nature / crossing interplanetary borders that would require a force with intergalactic jurisdiction.
— Targeting Starfleet organizations or Starfleet personnel.
— Relate to much larger events or situations that do involve Starfleet, like the coming Dominion War or security of DS9, the wormhole and the Bajoran protectorate.
— Involves non-Federation citizens committing the crimes.
— In the first case, Sisko was placed in charge of Starfleet Security and ordered to handle the investigation, so it's reasonable to infer Earth's law enforcement entity requested Starfleet's help.
— In the latter case, after Sisko was stabbed, he contacted and informed Starfleet Security himself and told them of his intention to travel to Tyree and investigate further. Since he's the Emissary and Starfleet's always been awkward and standoffish when dealing with Bajoran religion, they let him take the lead.
— Earth may have many overlapping local and federal jurisdictions due to its role as the Federation capital world, just like Washington DC.

So from both an in-universe and out-universe production standpoint, I think his argument is just fine in this case.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

In universe it’s clear on several occasions that without the Federation, a more tyrannical group moves in. That’s why Bajor grudgingly let the Federation make camp at their wormhole, they were the least of evils for them at the time.

The Federation are always the chief decision makers because the main characters of the TV show are Federation. They generally do not interfere with civilian governments unless there’s a larger threat and the civilian government are being obstinate morons about it.