It was in "SONS OF MOGH", DS9.
Is Starfleet Military?
- Thread starter Prometheus59650
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The word 'Klingon' probably means military in some fashion, warrior race and all that.
What's the logic there? IIRC, Enterprise had a episode that indicated that "Warriors" were not always in charge of the society.
The Defiant is nowhere near as fast Voyager. VOY can usually go to Warp 9.5 without issues.
Getting to just above Warp 9 (and maintaining it) on the Defiant though was a challenge that could only be done with shuffling phaser power into the structural integrity.
As for it being a purpose built engine of war... eh, any SF could be seen as an engine of war. VOY in particular had heavy armaments and decently powerful shielding, but it wasn't an angine of war.
Ablative hull armor, pulse phasers and quantum torpedoes don't necessarily make a starship an engine of war. It just has pretty much same offensive/defensive systems like any other SF ships does that were bumped up in specs.
The purpose was to make a powerful ship that sacrifices crew comforts to cram more powerful defensive and offensive systems - and the only reason it sacrificed crew comforts was mainly due to its size... had SF made it maybe 1 deck higher, they probably could have more evently distributed the hw and give more space to the crew.
The Prometheus has powerful weapons and ablative hull armor... sustainable cruise velocity of Warp 9.9, and yet it wasn't described as a purpose built engine of war.
It was described as a vessel capable of deep-space tactical missions (though that could be anything - in fairness, most deep space exploration ships aren't always described as having high level of armaments, but in comparison to the Defiant and Prommie, they do... they just seem weaker on average).
In fairness, any systems installed on the Defiant and Prommie would be installed onto other ships too as a standard at some point... or at least you'd think so.
The fact the Titan-A doesn't have that powerful systems is strange (and worrying) to say the least. One would think SF would ahve learned by now that exploring the unknown can sometimes require more powerful systems and having them there just to be safe (and improve the ship's chances of survival in the unknown) would have been sensible.... I guess SF disagreed.
What is the main task of a navy in peacetime? What was the main task of peacetime navies in the days when much of the world was still unexplored?
But whatever the weaponry of the vessel, it's the same organization that controls and employs that vessel as all the other vessels.
In the cases of the Borg and Dominion, the Federation was previously unaware of those threats and had to adjust. But before those threats emerged, the Enterprise and other Starfleet types were portrayed as quite able to handle "military" conflict with known adversaries.
The problem with an organization that changes radically between peace and war is that you need experienced people who know how to carry out the war mission all the time, because you never know when that function will be needed. You can lose the war in the time it takes to develop and deploy wartime leaders. Hence Jean-Luc "Not a Military Organization" Picard practicing command of his vessel in "war games."
In this thread? It seems like a pretty reasonable discussion to me, I haven't seen much evidence of anyone getting increasingly frustrated.
I've seen different numbers in different places, and undoubtedly Sisko and O'Brien continued to address the ship's issues over time. But Warp 9.982 is one of the numbers I saw.
Voyager had standard phasers, photon torpedoes, and no physical armor until the last episode. The Defiant had pulse phasers and quantum torpedoes, and Sisko had ablative armor added. Despite being larger than the Defiant, probably by close to an order of magnitude, Voyager probably couldn't have beaten her in a fight.
That's really my point. The Defiant was built for maximum fighting efficiency. The Enterprise E, having multiple quantum torpedo launchers and other upgrades, probably could have outfought her... but it would take many times more resources to build a Sovereign class than a Defiant class. And if you could build ten Defiants with the same resources (the Soverign is probably 50 times the size of the Defiant, but some ship parts are more resource intensive to construct).
Yes. But even if those ships had the same power as the Defiant, they would be bigger, require more resources for construction, and more personnel to operate. If a weapon exactly as powerful as the M4 cost twice as much to build and required two soldiers to operate it, it would still be less efficient than a standard M4, despite doing equivalent damage.
Shaw states his orders kept him inside the borders of the Federation. Their mission was not to go to the unknown.
It was equipped for its mission.
But SF should know that things don't always happen that way.
If a vessel is operating fairly near the border of UFP space, you'd think ships in those regions would have proper offensive and defensive systems.
Actually, to heck if a vessel is operating near the edge or outside UFP space... they have more than enough examples to date to understand that ships can be 'pulled' inexplicably to other regions, or may need to respond to a distress call.
Given that the Titan-A was suggested to be a somewhat new ship, I was surprised it didn't feature quantum torpedoes at the very least.
9.982 is nowhere near canon.
In actual DS9 episodes, the Defiant was usually warping below Warp 9.
The only time they went to Warp 9.5 was in 'The sound of her voice':
BASHIR: We need more speed.
O'BRIEN: Speed's not the problem. I could increase the warp plasma ninety seven gigahertz. That would increase our velocity to warp nine point five and save us almost a full day.
WORF: The problem on the Defiant is how to maintain structural integrity when we go above warp nine.
O'BRIEN: Exactly. At those kinds of speed the ship literally starts tearing herself apart.
SISKO: Is there any way to strengthen the structural integrity field?
O'BRIEN: Not without bleeding power from some other source.
SISKO: Such as?
O'BRIEN: The phaser reserves.
The Defiant had to bleed power from its phaser reserves to reach and maintain Warp 9.5
VOY (when it was chasing evolved Paris in 'Threshold') had to reduce speed from Warp 9.9 to Warp 9.5 in order to avoid structural collapse (and at Warp 9.5, the ship tremmors stopped entirely).
The upgraded USS Lakota fought the Defiant to a standstill with nothing but Phasers (without the benefit of ablative hull armor no less).
If an 80 year old Excelsior class without ablative hull armor can fight the Defiant to a standstill, the modern USS VOY (which was put into active service after the Defiant was conceived and was equipped with state of the art systems at the time) should be able to as well.
Here's the thing about larger ships: they probably have a lot more power at their disposal to shuffle into structural integrity, which is what helps them go over Warp 9 easily most of the time, and also in combat to reinforce the hull (maybe not on a level of an ablative armor which is always there, but they can shuffle more power to SIF).
If SF was concerned about nothing than size of the spacecraft, it wouldn't bother building larger ships.
Larger ships like Intrepid, Prometheus, Sovereign and Galaxy class ships likely outclass the Defiant when it comes to deep space assignments... and they can carry pretty powerful armaments in the process.
I wonder why we saw so few Defiant class ships even during the Dominion War.
Smaller ships like the Defiant seemed to be mainly there for the purpose of reinforcing the core sectors of the Federation in case of a Borg invasion, etc.
While the Defiant was sent to do some recon and exploratory missions to the GQ, they were very small in scope.
The USS Lakota was upgraded to pretty much match the Defiant in firepower, but it lacked ablative hull armor - and SF never messed about with its size (which remained intact).
While the armor certainly helps the Defiant, from what we saw, the ship still sufferred quite a bit of damage with the armor. Some critical systems were better protected yes, but, had the Lakota opted to use Quantum Torpedoes too, the Defiant would have likely lost.
The Lakota seemed to have a tactical advantage overall and it chose to stand down.
It's a hero ship and the Studio Suits would be afraid seeing another Defiant would confuse the audience. The few times we did see another Defiant class ship like the Valiant or Sao Paulo, it was for budgetary expedience. Same reason why a majority of the other Galaxy class ships we see came after the Enterprise D was destroyed, or why we never saw other Intrepid class ships back in the day. The Bellerophon was another case of budgetary expedience, and the Suits strenuously objected anyway. It was only because Voyager was filming an episode at that time that didn't require the ship sets anyway that the Suits decided to relent.
And perhaps they would be if the mission profile called for it. At this point in time, the mission profile did not.
Regarding the Lakota fighting the Defiant...
She was upgraded, which included phasers. If I remember correctly, the Defiant was damaged but she could still destroy the Lakota because they were in 'worse shape', according to Kira. Thankfully, Benteen stopped fighting because Worf may very well have given the order to fire.
The Defiant also has an edge in maneuverability at impulse because she is small. As proof, look at the battle sequences of "SHATTERED MIRROR" when the Mirror Universe version was easily moving between the pylons and inner structure of DS9, plus how she fought against the Regent's ship.
She was upgraded, which included phasers. If I remember correctly, the Defiant was damaged but she could still destroy the Lakota because they were in 'worse shape', according to Kira. Thankfully, Benteen stopped fighting because Worf may very well have given the order to fire.
The Defiant also has an edge in maneuverability at impulse because she is small. As proof, look at the battle sequences of "SHATTERED MIRROR" when the Mirror Universe version was easily moving between the pylons and inner structure of DS9, plus how she fought against the Regent's ship.
Actually, between the last thread on this and now this one, my opinion has changed.
Starfleet operates as the Federation's military. Sure, it does tons of other things too, and isn't for conquest (so not militaristic), but when the Fed needs a military force, it calls SF.
They don't built these ships big for firepower, though. They're built as engines of exploration and research. They simply have weapons and shields to protect themselves in a pinch.
The Lakota was 34 decks. The Defiant had five.
Consider that a 500-foot long Naval research vessel with 5-inch guns will have more firepower than a dinky 100-foot patrol boat with 4-inchers... but the research vessel's guns are an afterthought. The PT boat's are its main battery.
Consider the following exercise. It's a retelling of the final battle in "The Jem'Hadar", if the 42-deck USS Odyssey had been a purpose-built warship, like the Defiant was, with extrapolation based on ship size, volume, and other factors.
The three Jem'Hadar ships start toward the Odyssey, firing as they come. The Runabouts aren't present. It doesn't matter; they won't be needed.
OFFICER: "Their weapons fire is penetrating our shields."
CAPT. KEOGH: "Ablative armor?"
OFFICER: "It's holding, sir. No damage so far."
KEOGH: "Enough of this. Quantum torpedoes, all tubes."
The Odyssey lights up the interstellar night as a dozen blue quantum torpedoes go flying from its multiple forward emplacements. One of the Jem'Hadar ships explodes as the torpedoes pummel it, the other two go flying aside with critical damage.
KEOGH: "Lock phasers and fire."
Multiple rotating pulse phaser turrets open up, and the second JH ship is quickly incinerated.
KEOGH: "Hail the last ship. Tell them we'll let them go if they power down their weapons immediately."
Whether the last ship's crew gets the message or not is irrelevant, this is the Dominion. They know that they can't win this fight, but through sheer maneuverability, the ship spins itself around and makes a kamikaze run at the Odyssey.
KEOGH: "All hands brace for impact!"
CRUNCH!! The Jem'Hadar ship slams into the Odyssey and disintegrates.
On the bridge, everyone is rocked violently. Some panels go boom. And... that's about it.
KEOGH: "Damage?"
OFFICER: "Shields have collapsed. Outer armor layer is splintering."
KEOGH: "Inner armor?"
OFFICER: "Holding, sir."
KEOGH: "Any signs of additional ships?"
OFFICER: "None. If there were any here, they're keeping their distance."
KEOGH: Very well, I think we've made our point. Beam up Commander Sisko and let's get out of here."
The Titan-A on the other hand does not it seems. And that's ridiculously odd.
Remember that the Defiant was built to be overpowered for its size.
A vessel like the Voyager would likely be able to go toe to toe with the Defiant in terms of raw firepower. Shields might also be in VOY favour.
So, basically, what the Defiant might lack in some shield power, it makes up with armour. But either way, VOY would likely still be able to go toe to toe with it (if the upgraded Lakota was able to) and might even have tactical superiority.
Whichever ship comes out on top would depend on the tactics used.
The Odyssey could have done the same with Photon Torpedoes (just unload double the amount compared to quantums and case closed - the single launcher on the Galaxy class can fire at least 6 torpedoes at the same time - which for some reason was never used in the War)... but I don't think it would have mattered.
As for the Ablative armour on the Odyssey... possible, but not necessarily likely.
The Odyssey tactical systems remained functional for the duration of the battle, but no one thought about firing torpedoes it seems, and phasers had no effect.
The Dominion was gathering intel on the UFP and its technology in the first 2 years since the wormhole opened. If you recall, it was openly stated that they destroyed various ships (probably captured and studied them) along with the New Bajor colony.
That's basically what gave the Jem'Hadaar a tactical edge.
They managed to adapt their weapons to bypass Federation shields and deal cripling blows to a vessel.
The final blow was the Jem'Hadaar ship doing a suicide run on the Odyssey (the shield power was diverted into structural integrity just prior to this as they were useless).
Looking at how the Defiant fared in its first battle against 3 Jem'Hadaar ships... it was severely damaged,but it wasn't destroyed (mainly because it was the main cast and the Founders captured the crew to run a probability scenario in their heads) - they probably also spared the Defiant crew because they knew Odo was initially with them and why he managed to reach the planet in the Omarion nebula without encountering further enemy ships.
It wasn't until the subsequent use of the Defiant that the crew managed to go up against 2 or 3 Jem'Hadaar fighters and destroy them.
The Defiant was initially designed to fight and defeat the Borg. Namely, its pulse phasers gave it a needed oomph to destroy a fighter quickly... but they basically doubled their phaser power by doing some fancy rigging/modding which other ships probably could have implemented in the same way to increase firepower of their beam phasers in the same way - and when the war actually began, even beam phasers were sufficient to destroy Dominion ships - courtesy of the UFP capturing a downed Dominion ship prior to the War breaking out.
In effect, had the Odyssey been given those anti-Borg systems the Defiant had, its possible it may have survived the conflict in question, but we have no conclusive evidence to say this with certainty. Because even if it did have them, its battle might have gone the same way the Defiant's first battle against the Jem'Hadaar went... with defeat.
Its the 25th century. Quantums should be a standard ordinance on SF ships by this era.
Even the ENT-E had them in good quantities in Nemesis movie (which was over 20 years ago from in universe point of view).
But, despite this, I'll admit its possible the mission profile didn't call for Quantum's inclusion (even though its a sensless move and seems like SF hadn't learned its lesson).
VOY was initially launched for what was supposed to be a 2 week mission to find a lone Maqui ship in the Badlands.
But given the threat the Maqui presented at the time, you'd think SF would have gave VOY more torpedoes than just inital 36 (and more supplies onboard).
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They haven't.
The scenario I gave was what would have happened if the same three ships, which the Odyssey was destroyed by and the Defiant defeated by in their initial engagements, had gone up against a ship with the Defiant's ton for ton lethality, combined with the Galaxy's size. If the Defiant is a destroyer, this alternate Odyssey would be a battleship. And I actually scaled it back a bit, for a more illustrative story. More realistically, the Odyssey would simply fired its whole frontal weapons array, and those Jem'Hadar warships would have been debris.
If Starfleet was truly a military, they would have ships like that. But, they don't. Even the Defiant, which would have been the basis for an easy to build battle fleet, was mothballed until the Dominion emerged.
Given that the Sovereign was smaller than the Galaxy class but far deadlier, shows that while Starfleet still wasn't all in on building engines of war, they were a bit more aligned toward doing so.
Maybe that's why Voyager was equipped with two tricobalt devices at the time of uts launch. Them having that unusual armament was never explained.
Nah. Starfleet hides its weapons behind pretty hulls. Doesn't make them less military. If the Odyssey was the hero ship it would have defeated those three ships. You really can't make arguments based on which ship got defeated and which didn't.
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