Laws and legalities have changed a lot in the last 20 years. Imagine how different it will be in 340 years.
Is Starfleet Military?
- Thread starter Prometheus59650
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Ok, but I mean, how much difficulty will be created by having an agency that on some days or only for specific missions are a military, but other than that do not engage in military type activities? It is absurdist hair splitting at this point, which I'm sure the lawyers will love...
Be silly of them not to considering every other government they're surrounded by has a military. Not to mention the fact the Federation originated from a military alliance to combat the Romulans.
Which always funny because they kinda pitched it as being out on the frontier.
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Starfleet is an organization created for scientific research and exploration that, under the right circumstances, can be used for war. It's like taking your grandpappy's double barreled shotgun and trying to use it in combat... it's certainly capable of killing the enemy, but it's not purpose built for serious combat.
You try and tell those guys from "Nor the Battle to the Strong" that they're grandpappy's shotgun. See how far you get. 
Still a part of the US Army though.Like the National Guard?
The USS Defiant is an M4: quantum torpedoes, pulse phasers, ablative armor, faster than Voyager, and easily maneuverable. In other words, a purpose-built engine of war. But most of Starfleet wasn't fighting the Dominion war in ships like that.
They're all engines of war. Some just have a nicer "paint job".
Agencies seem to be created all the time.
As I said, lawyers will love it. And legislators.
Did anyone catch lower decks s03e01 calling a Starfleet drydock a "military compound"?
OK, let's try a different tack. Let's accept that Starfleet is NOT a military. We'll even accept that the Federation does not have one and that it's citizenry come out of the end of the various wars we've seen in the century or so of canon Star Trek that has the Federation and the citezenry says "This is fine."
What would change if Starfleet DID become a military?
Scientific capability? Nope. As we've noted in various places modern and historical militaries all have and do perform such functions. Hell, the Defiant (the one "true" warship) goes on scientific missions. I don't recall Dax ever complaining "Dammit, if only I had REAL scientific capability! This thing is a WARSHIP."
Rank structure? Clearly no.
Combat capabilities? If you haven't guessed or are new around here I'm a TOS guy. Kirk and his crew ran through weapons drills and training and never once complained "Hey we're not a military." Picard did. Which does lead me to ask "Why is your scientific ship that has a non-Starfleet compliment the ship for this job, Jean-Luc?"
Also when the Enterprise D was up against any of the neighbor powers (Romulan, Klingon, Ferengi) and not hyper powered god beings Picard never said "Hey, we can't handle this! We're a SCIENCE vessel!"
As I put forward up thread, is it the word? I haven't seen anyone who dismisses the idea of Starfleet as a military object to Starfleet being armed or being involved in armed conflict. Or having a very military rank structure. Heck, these people are often recruited as spies! The Enterprise Incident and Chain of Command clearly had military objectives.
So I suppose we can say that they are not a military. They just do all of the things a military does. Some folk just don't like the word.
What would change if Starfleet DID become a military?
Scientific capability? Nope. As we've noted in various places modern and historical militaries all have and do perform such functions. Hell, the Defiant (the one "true" warship) goes on scientific missions. I don't recall Dax ever complaining "Dammit, if only I had REAL scientific capability! This thing is a WARSHIP."
Rank structure? Clearly no.
Combat capabilities? If you haven't guessed or are new around here I'm a TOS guy. Kirk and his crew ran through weapons drills and training and never once complained "Hey we're not a military." Picard did. Which does lead me to ask "Why is your scientific ship that has a non-Starfleet compliment the ship for this job, Jean-Luc?"
Also when the Enterprise D was up against any of the neighbor powers (Romulan, Klingon, Ferengi) and not hyper powered god beings Picard never said "Hey, we can't handle this! We're a SCIENCE vessel!"
As I put forward up thread, is it the word? I haven't seen anyone who dismisses the idea of Starfleet as a military object to Starfleet being armed or being involved in armed conflict. Or having a very military rank structure. Heck, these people are often recruited as spies! The Enterprise Incident and Chain of Command clearly had military objectives.
So I suppose we can say that they are not a military. They just do all of the things a military does. Some folk just don't like the word.
This actually ties into another thing that gets me on this topic, in that when we do see actual militaries in the franchise, including intentionally militaristic takes on Starfleet as seen in the Mirror Universe, Yesterday's Enterprise or the Confederation in season 2 of Picard, they always go with an extremely simplistic interpretation of things. An actual military in Star Trek is staffed by bad tempered or ill mannered people wearing uniforms with strict and severe collars and/or shoulder epaulettes, a shoot first, kill everything mentality. And for some reason, 75% of the "actual militaries" in the franchise use army ranks as opposed to Starfleet's typical naval rank structure.
So if Starfleet did become a military, the franchise's precedent would turn it into cartoonish evil and unpleasant stereotypes of soldiers.
Multiple opinions, strongly and earnestly defended by readily available evidence, all parties completely convinced that they're right, and getting increasingly frustrated that they can't get the other side to agree with them. This is like the Blind Men and the Elephant... that or a debate on gun rights. Pick one. And do not express an opinion on gun rights, it was a metaphor.
Here's a side question related to this topic: Do the Klingons have a unified military command?
They have been referred to as the "Klingon Defense Forces" (KDF) and the Chancellor does set policy when the Empire fights an offensive collectively. But the feudal nature of the Klingons makes me wonder whether its more akin to Game of Thrones, where each Klingon House has forces that are loyal to a "Lord," with all of the lords having "bent the knee" to the Chancellor.
And I guess any time Gowron wanted to launch an offensive, he'd have to call up the forces of each Klingon house. But it would also explain how someone like Kruge in Search for Spock (who is referred to as "my lord" by his crew) can freelance, violate the Neutral Zone, and pursue his own interests.
So, in some ways, each Klingon House might set their own foreign policy.
They have been referred to as the "Klingon Defense Forces" (KDF) and the Chancellor does set policy when the Empire fights an offensive collectively. But the feudal nature of the Klingons makes me wonder whether its more akin to Game of Thrones, where each Klingon House has forces that are loyal to a "Lord," with all of the lords having "bent the knee" to the Chancellor.
And I guess any time Gowron wanted to launch an offensive, he'd have to call up the forces of each Klingon house. But it would also explain how someone like Kruge in Search for Spock (who is referred to as "my lord" by his crew) can freelance, violate the Neutral Zone, and pursue his own interests.
So, in some ways, each Klingon House might set their own foreign policy.
@Citiprime , various books (esp. in the 1980's) detailed various approaches including, probably, something rather like this one. Final Reflection is obviously the gold standard, but Vonda McIntyre took a couple of stabs at it in both The Search for Spock and Enterprise The First Adventure.
Then TNG came along and then DS9 took the moQ and ran with it.
The Klingons most likely have a military.
Then TNG came along and then DS9 took the moQ and ran with it.
The Klingons most likely have a military.
There was a line from Kurn - can't remember the ep, although it was probably DS9 - who complained that when the House of Mogh was dishonored, its ships were seized. Implying that Klingon ships are typically owned by one of the great houses. Although probably not always crewed by that house (as in most fleets, Klingon crew transfers are a thing).
FWIW.
FWIW.
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