WOW. Thank you VERY much for that historical perspective! I feel smarter. Or at least a little more educated.
Is Starfleet a military organization?
- Thread starter Commander Troi
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Considering the Federation began as a military alliance against the Romulans, I'd say that's a pretty compelling argument for having a military. Indeed, that's something that's always rankled me with the idea that once the Federation was founded, the founding members abandoned their militaries and utilized the non-military Starfleet for their defense needs. In the wake of fighting an interstellar war against an enemy you've only reached a shaky accord with, and then establishing a new interstellar alliance in the name of peace and security, there's no way anyone's going to have the attitude of "and now we never need to have a military again. Let's be space explorers instead." They're going to recognize the need for a dedicated military, especially since everyone else in the galaxy has one.
And really, it's just weird to think that everyone in the Federation did abandon their militaries at the start and this attitude apparently lasts for nine hundred years, during which there's encounters with an advanced alien race bent on the eradication of civilization as its known and a war is fought with another interstellar alliance which is set upon conquering space, a member of this alliance had already fought a war with the Federation a decade or so earlier. And it's not until one day, dilithium spontaneously explodes that everyone in the Federation conveniently ignores the fact that for nine hundred years explorers and scientists kept them safe from all other threats in the galaxy and decides "oh shit, we need a military again." Is this the Federation everyone wants to believe in? That sends scientists and explorers to deal with invaders and threats successfully until science scares them into becoming soldiers again?
Considering all that stuff can and has been done by militaries, why not just call a spade a spade and be done with it?
Rios and Raffi also smoke.
Marketing / Labeling.
I don't think the Federation really "Abandoned" their militaries, so much as merge them into one organization and shared resources for common defense.
The marketing of StarFleet as a "Exploration" only force, yet carries Earth's Naval traditions including rank structure & weaponry seems like one giant PR campaign to convince the civilian populace of each member world that it's good to unite under one banner.
The civilian side of the UFP use the "Exploration Force" as a marketing stunt to give the legal authorization, yet in reality, what we see is a giant hybrid organization that's tasked with not only the Military Side, but also the Police side, Exploration, Diplomacy, Scientific, & Engineering sides, etc.
Part of the problem is that some of the civilian side of the UFP government bought into their PR campaign too much and didn't improve their Weapons R&D as much. Ergo getting caught off-guard by the Borg, Jem Hadar, etc.
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If a military is the agency responsible for the defense of the state in times of war or violent conflict, then Starfleet is the military.
If a military is an agency characterized by extreme belligerence and warmongering, Starfleet is not a military.
The former is a legal definition. The latter is a description of operational ethos.
I would contend that Starfleet is legally the military but its operational ethos is anti-militaristic.
If a military is an agency characterized by extreme belligerence and warmongering, Starfleet is not a military.
The former is a legal definition. The latter is a description of operational ethos.
I would contend that Starfleet is legally the military but its operational ethos is anti-militaristic.
Starfleet is legally the military and can serve multiple other roles for the Federation.
Starfleet is many different things, one of them could be called military?
I really want to thank everyone for their thoughts! This has been awesome!
they have military ranks. they follow a code of military justice, they wear uniforms, their ships are loaded for bear, they are used as warships in war and peacekeeping operations. they have authorization to even end all life in a planet without prior approval in certain circumstances. Not exactly the Salvation Army.
Yeah, I'd call them military, regardless of Khan's comments, which probably meant neither he nor Marcus thought Starfleet was military ENOUGH.
Yeah, I'd call them military, regardless of Khan's comments, which probably meant neither he nor Marcus thought Starfleet was military ENOUGH.
Wiki says:
A military, also known collectively as armed forces, is a heavily armed, highly organized force primarily intended for warfare. It is typically officially authorized and maintained by a sovereign state, with its members identifiable by their distinct military uniform. It may consist of one or more military branches such as an army, navy, air force, space force, marines, or coast guard. The main task of the military is usually defined as defence of the state and its interests against external armed threats.
SF is not primarily intended for warfare, and its main task is not defence.
Are there any other definitions, maybe something generally accepted or official?
A military, also known collectively as armed forces, is a heavily armed, highly organized force primarily intended for warfare. It is typically officially authorized and maintained by a sovereign state, with its members identifiable by their distinct military uniform. It may consist of one or more military branches such as an army, navy, air force, space force, marines, or coast guard. The main task of the military is usually defined as defence of the state and its interests against external armed threats.
SF is not primarily intended for warfare, and its main task is not defence.
Are there any other definitions, maybe something generally accepted or official?
That made me laugh!!!! And it is 100% true! Unless the Salvation Army or Greenpeace has a General Order 24 they're not talking about...
It was funny.
And this is why people tend to frown on these discussions. When you start pulling quotes out of characters saying Starfleet isn't a military, others can pull out an equal number of quotes from other characters saying Starfleet is a military. Off the top of my head, I can pull out examples of the Federation President, Q, Sisko and Janeway all referring to Starfleet as a military. But then we come to the real reason these threads are considered a pain in the ass, when they turn into a back and forth of people on one side saying "IS A MILITARY!" with other side saying "ISN'T A MILITARY" and on and on and on.KHAN: Marcus used me to design weapons, to help him realize his vision of a militarized Starfleet.
How can the head of SF have a vision of it being militarized if it already is a military organization?
The simple fact of the matter is when TOS was originally conceived, Starfleet was the military. Contrary to popular belief, TOS was not innovative or trying to reinvent the wheel. There were plenty of TV shows of the time about military explorers, and indeed Starfleet itself was basically just the US Navy with trimmings of colonial era Royal Navy in space. It wasn't until Phase 2/TMP when the military side of Starfleet started to be downplayed primarily due to the fact that because of Vietnam, the military wasn't very popular in the US. But even then, it wasn't until TWOK when Roddenberry suddenly decreed that Starfleet wasn't military, and that was only as a smear campaign against Nick Meyer since Roddenberry was pissed Paramount removed him from authority over the movies. Then when TNG began being developed, Roddenberry suddenly hated the military, as reflected with the debacle involving Diane Carey and her novel Ghost Ship and tried to make it canon that Starfleet isn't a military. Problem became, so many writers still viewed Starfleet as a military and drew from the military, specifically the US Navy for Starfleet creating this weird situation we're now in with Starfleet essentially being the US Navy in space but somehow not military because Gene Spoke It, yet if fills the same purpose as the military anyway and has all the same ranks, traditions, terms and policies as the military. Hell, back in the 90s behind the scene sources claimed Starfleet dropped the Commodore rank in the 24th century and replaced it with Rear Admiral, Lower Half because that's what the US Navy did. It was only last year that we got a Canon Commodore in the 24th century, thereby rendering that idea obsolete.
I think it is pretty clear that since defending the Federation in times of war is primarily Starfleet's job rather than any other agency, that means that one of Starfleet's main tasks is defense. That task may be co-equal with scientific inquiry, exploration, and diplomacy, but it is a main task.
Also, I don't know how Starfleet can have courts-martial without being military. "Martial" is just a fancy synonym for "military," so I don't know how Starfleet could have a military court without being a military.
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