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Poll Is Star Trek: Khan khanon?

Should Star Trek: Khan be considered khanon?


  • Total voters
    33
I distinctly recall that this was the era in which -- even before TNG -- ST novels were coming out one or two per month, whereas SW novels were barely coming out a few times per year.

Yes, the SW novel output was low compared to ST, but that's because the ST output at the time was exceptional. (And Lucas's whole goal in starting up the Expanded Universe was to compete with Trek's novel output, or so I've heard.) But I'm not comparing it to contemporary ST output, I'm comparing it to Disney-era SW output. My point is that it wasn't any easier to maintain consistency pre-Disney as it's been post-Disney. It's just that the difficulties get glossed over as people's memories fade and they uncritically accept the myth that the Expanded Universe was as consistent as it was claimed to be.

Also, again, you can't limit it to the novels, because SW comics and games were abundant and were also counted as canonical. The big difference between ST and SW is that all SW tie-ins were required to acknowledge and reconcile with each other, while continuity between ST tie-ins was always optional.



Kind of the opposite of the present situation. Even after TNG came out, the question about the SW "Prequel Trilogy" was not "when will it come out?", but rather, "will there be one?" Simply put, once RotJ came out, SW was not in active production, and would not be for over a decade.

Which is probably why they felt safe to proceed with "canonical" novels and comics starting with the Thrawn trilogy and Dark Empire in 1991. But The Phantom Menace came out only eight years later, and the Expanded Universe lasted until 2014. So that means that roughly 2/3 of the EU's existence as a publishing strategy (not counting the pre-1991 works retroactively folded in) took place while there was new screen canon in active production.
 
Look at how many different stories there were of how the Death Star plans were stolen in the EU.
They tried to reconcile them years later by saying they were all different pieces of the plans, but that was just a Band-Aid retcon.

The events of how the Death Star 2 info was retrieved also had a similar issue, but not as bad iirc. I remember two games telling two different versions. Though they had common elements, like the Blockade Runner 'Razor'
 
It's also beneficial to the licensees for the IP holder to make the tie-ins look important because it's more encouraging to the fans. Paramount's "the Star Trek novels and comics aren't canon!" attitude over the years gave potential customers a reason to not buy the licensees' product; the IP holder was telling fans that tie-ins aren't important and don't matter so don't waste your time and money.
Mildly beneficial, but it's not something that matters to the vast majority of the reading public. Like I keep saying, don't mistake a few fans bitching on the internet for any kind of trend. Considering that the Arnold era was, as @Christopher said, also when Trek novels were routinely hitting the Times best-seller list, it very obviously didn't matter much to the general readership.
 
Here's the thing: no tie-in book, in any franchise, is ever truly "canon" (in the sense some readers want it to be) because it can and will be contradicted by the actual movies or tv series as they see fit. Because nobody making a multi-million dollar movie is going to worry about whether it contradicts an old paperback novel that only 2% of the viewing audiences have ever heard of.

That has nothing to do with the quality of the tie-ins or how tight the continuity should be. It's just the nature of the beast. The tail does not wag the dog.

And, honestly, speaking as somebody who has been editing and writing tie-ins for most of my adult life, I can testify that I have never seen the word "canon" appear in any contract or licensing agreement, nor does it often come up with working with a licensor.

Trust me, if I'm negotiating to acquire the rights to publish SPACE MERMAID novels -- based on the hit TV series -- we're going to be talking advances, royalties, territories, schedules, image approvals, and so on. The burning question of whether the books are going to be "canon" is not going to be discussed.

In the the real world, and in any practical sense, it's a non-issue.
 
I will also note that I found the quality of the SW tie-in novels to be vastly inferior to that of the ST tie-in novels of that era (and canon has precisely nothing to do with it; the books either bored me, or grossed me out, or in some cases both). Compared to ADF's Splinter, I found the Han Solo and Lando Calrissian trilogies to be disappointing (and I eventually sold them off to used book dealers). And I wasn't all that happy with the quality when the imprint changed from Ballantine/Del Rey to Bantam Spectra, either. And I sold off most of them, as well. I'm pretty sure that the only SW novels I still have are either movie novelizations, or by ADF, or both.

And yes, if you have books and movies set in the same milieu, the only way the books can be considered canon is if they came first. Which is to say that Holmes movies, to the extent that they differ from what Conan Doyle wrote, are non-canonical, and likewise, Oz movies, to the extent that they differ from what Baum wrote, are non-canonical (and in many cases, they're also actively revisionist). No matter how much of a tail-wagging-the-dog situation there might be in terms of popularity.

And there's an exception even to that: it seems that Gary Wolf explicitly declared his own Who Censored Roger Rabbit to be non-canonical (as I recall, he declared it to be Roger's nightmare), because he liked Disney's version better, and started writing in the Disney version of the milieu.
 
Here's the thing: no tie-in book, in any franchise, is ever truly "canon" (in the sense some readers want it to be) because it can and will be contradicted by the actual movies or tv series as they see fit. Because nobody making a multi-million dollar movie is going to worry about whether it contradicts an old paperback novel that only 2% of the viewing audiences have ever heard of.

Also because canons even contradict themselves when it suits them. Continuity is not the exclusive goal of fiction, it's just one of the ingredients in creating the illusion, and sometimes that means a canon changes itself and just pretends it was that way all along.

Most of the audience doesn't fixate on small details. Heck, there are plenty of viewers out there who don't understand that the different screen interpretations of Batman are out of continuity with each other. There are some who don't even realize that Batman and Iron Man inhabit different universes. They just watch the stories and don't dwell on the minutiae.


And, honestly, speaking as somebody who has been editing and writing tie-ins for most of my adult life, I can testify that I have never seen the word "canon" appear in any contract or licensing agreement, nor does it often come up with working with a licensor.

Trust me, if I'm negotiating to acquire the rights to publish SPACE MERMAID novels -- based on the hit TV series -- we're going to be talking advances, royalties, territories, schedules, image approvals, and so on. The burning question of whether the books are going to be "canon" is not going to be discussed.

In the the real world, and in any practical sense, it's a non-issue.

Right, because any tie-in is going to do its best to stay consistent with the screen series it's tying into. That's a given. Whether it's canonical is a matter of whether the makers of the screen franchise choose to acknowledge it in return, and that's not under the licensees' control. Our job as contracted tie-in authors or editors is to follow the franchise's lead. They're not obligated to follow ours. Unless they choose to, but they very rarely do, and only to the extent that it suits them.



I will also note that I found the quality of the SW tie-in novels to be vastly inferior to that of the ST tie-in novels of that era (and canon has precisely nothing to do with it; the books either bored me, or grossed me out, or in some cases both). Compared to ADF's Splinter, I found the Han Solo and Lando Calrissian trilogies to be disappointing (and I eventually sold them off to used book dealers). And I wasn't all that happy with the quality when the imprint changed from Ballantine/Del Rey to Bantam Spectra, either. And I sold off most of them, as well. I'm pretty sure that the only SW novels I still have are either movie novelizations, or by ADF, or both.

Again, keep in mind that the early tie-ins like Splinter, the Han and Lando trilogies, and the Marvel comic were a separate era of SW publishing than the Expanded Universe era that began in 1991, despite the EU's efforts to force them into the continuity retroactively. Back then, there was no overall plan, no attempt to connect the tie-ins in a shared continuity. Each one basically did its own thing.


And there's an exception even to that: it seems that Gary Wolf explicitly declared his own Who Censored Roger Rabbit to be non-canonical (as I recall, he declared it to be Roger's nightmare), because he liked Disney's version better, and started writing in the Disney version of the milieu.

Or maybe because he recognized it was more profitable to write sequels that audiences would recognize as compatible with the Disney version. The writers of Logan's Run did something similar, starting the second novel with a brief passage that undid the original novel's ending and changed the situation to something more akin to the completely different ending of the feature film. And Arthur C. Clarke's 2010 novel was a sequel to the film version of 2001 (where the Monolith was at Jupiter) rather than the book version (where it was at Saturn).
 
Also because canons even contradict themselves when it suits them. Continuity is not the exclusive goal of fiction, it's just one of the ingredients in creating the illusion, and sometimes that means a canon changes itself and just pretends it was that way all along.

Most of the audience doesn't fixate on small details. Heck, there are plenty of viewers out there who don't understand that the different screen interpretations of Batman are out of continuity with each other. There are some who don't even realize that Batman and Iron Man inhabit different universes. They just watch the stories and don't dwell on the minutiae.




Right, because any tie-in is going to do its best to stay consistent with the screen series it's tying into. That's a given. Whether it's canonical is a matter of whether the makers of the screen franchise choose to acknowledge it in return, and that's not under the licensees' control. Our job as contracted tie-in authors or editors is to follow the franchise's lead. They're not obligated to follow ours. Unless they choose to, but they very rarely do, and only to the extent that it suits them.





Again, keep in mind that the early tie-ins like Splinter, the Han and Lando trilogies, and the Marvel comic were a separate era of SW publishing than the Expanded Universe era that began in 1991, despite the EU's efforts to force them into the continuity retroactively. Back then, there was no overall plan, no attempt to connect the tie-ins in a shared continuity. Each one basically did its own thing.




Or maybe because he recognized it was more profitable to write sequels that audiences would recognize as compatible with the Disney version. The writers of Logan's Run did something similar, starting the second novel with a brief passage that undid the original novel's ending and changed the situation to something more akin to the completely different ending of the feature film. And Arthur C. Clarke's 2010 novel was a sequel to the film version of 2001 (where the Monolith was at Jupiter) rather than the book version (where it was at Saturn).

See also Johnston McCully ignoring the ending of his original Zorro novel, in which Zorro revealed his secret identity to the world, married Lolita, retired from being Zorro and lived happily ever after -- because the Douglas Fairbanks movie had been a huge hit, turning Zorro into a cash cow.

No fool, McCulley ignored the happy ending to his previously standalone story and kept writing Zorro books for the rest of his life. :)
 
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See also Johnston McCully ignoring the ending of his original Zorro novel, which Zorro revealed his secret identity to the world, married Lolita, retired from being Zorro and lived happily ever after -- because the Douglas Fairbanks movie had been a huge hit, turning Zorro into a cash cow.

While the movies, ironically, kept the original ending and did a sequel where Fairbanks played Zorro's son a generation later (and donned age makeup to reprise Don Diego as well), though it was based on an unrelated novel set in Spain.
 
See also Johnston McCully ignoring the ending of his original Zorro novel, which Zorro revealed his secret identity to the world, married Lolita, retired from being Zorro and lived happily ever after -- because the Douglas Fairbanks movie had been a huge hit, turning Zorro into a cash cow.

No fool, McCulley ignored the happy ending to his previously standalone story and kept writing Zorro books for the rest of his life. :)
For that matter, Ian Fleming kills James Bond at the end of From Russia With Love, and that death sticks about as well as Sherlock Holmes at Reichenbach or Jean Grey every third Tuesday.
 
I once wrote a short-short involving multiple timeline variations on Dulmur, Lucsly, and Roberta Lincoln. It also involved Fred Freiberger, and the "Requiem for a Martian" hoax.
 
Going back to Doyle, but not Holmes, the third Professor Challenger begins with a disclaimer that at least one, if not both, of the previous Professor Challenger novels did not actually happen: "The great Professor Challenger has been-- very improperly and imperfectly-- used in fiction. A daring author placed him in impossible and romantic situations in order to see how he would react to them."
 
I'd forgotten, if I ever knew, that there was a third Challenger novel. But then, I don't think I've ever actually read the novels, just seen some of the movie adaptations. Although I have read, and still own, Greg Bear's sequel Dinosaur Summer, in which Willis O'Brien and Ray Harryhausen join an expedition to the Lost World 50 years after Challenger.
 
There's an early Holmes/Challenger crossover pastiche by the French writer Jules Castier that was actually published before the third novel. It's called "The Footprints on the Ceiling," and Holmes is brought to Challenger's mansion as it appears that he's been kidnapped.

Challenger has miniaturized himself and he's out of step with a conventional understanding of space-time, which Holmes deduces from an examination of the experiment room.

It sounds absurd, because Challenger is absurd in all of his baroque Brian Blessed-ness, but it plays both characters (and their supporting casts) fairly.
 
Blessed never played Challenger, apparently, but John Rhys-Davies played him in a pair of 1992 TV movies, opposite David Warner as Summerlee.
 
And, oh, getting back to Star Trek, let's not forgetting Spot changing gender on TNG! :)
Is there an official stance on Spot's gender when you're writing them in the books? I think they were male in most of their appearances, but I can't remember if their gender was referred to in any of their appearances after Genesis which I believe is where the switch occured.
 
Is there an official stance on Spot's gender when you're writing them in the books? I think they were male in most of their appearances, but I can't remember if their gender was referred to in any of their appearances after Genesis which I believe is where the switch occured.

I think the usual approach is to go with whatever the later version is, which is why we don't write about James R. Kirk and lithium crystals. We presume the earlier version got it wrong and the later version corrected it.
 
I think I remember someone in Star Trek: The Magazine suggesting that Data had more than one cat and he named them both Spot due to lack of imagination.
 
Doyle's third Challenger novel was utter garbage. I deliberately ignored it when I wrote my Challenger story for A Cry of Hounds, having it take place after both The Lost World and The Poison Belt, but before The Land of Mist, so I could ignore it. It was, as @Allyn Gibson said, full of spiritualist gobbledygook that is completely antithetical to the rationalist scientist Challenger, who's barely recognizable in the book.
 
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