Is Star Trek 2009 Beyond Criticism?

[Admiral Buzzkill]

All we're doing is posting opinions on a BBS.

None of this affects anything except our own moods and the tone of the group.

People who think they're going to change the course of Star Trek, or save it from something or another by criticizing this movie are just plain wrong.

People who think they're protecting the JJVerse from doom by defending it are just as wrong.

It doesn't matter. It's small talk.

 

[Sky]

No.

But I'll ask you again - what do you want? For people who disagree with you to just admire your enormous courage and integrity for having an opinion? Or are we allowed to say that we disagree or that - heaven forbid - we think you're wrong?"

I want the same thing you want - to discuss Star Trek. I like talking Star Trek. I like talking what I like about it, and I also like talking what I don't like about it. I like reading other people's opinions about it - whether they agree with me or not - and finding out about other viewpoints. I also like to discuss ways which flawed films could be made better. If Abrams does not lurk here, too bad.

That good enough for you?

Look, when you say "That said, I spend almost no time and very, very rarely post in either the Voyager or DS9 forums. Why should I spend time there, since I don't like the shows?" you seem to be hinting that only those who liked the film are welcome.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

I discuss the film here because I had high hopes for it, I was very enthusiastic about it, I waited for it for a looooong while and thought it'd probably be the best Trek I've seen after TUC. It fell flat and I was emotionally invested so now I am disappointed. I want the sequels to be better, way better. If only the positive opinions and reviews are voiced, I'm afraid we'll only get more of the same.

More? Oh heavens no! What will we do with all that popularity and critical acclaim?!

We can always migrate to Bizarro World. Where the rules of maths don't apply.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

No, the movie isn't beyond criticism but neither is TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, ENT, and the previous films. The problem is that valid criticisms get tossed out the shuttlebay in favor of shit-stirring pissing contests about canon and snide remarks about the "intelligence" of those that actually enjoyed the film.

Canon gets used far too often as a non-sequitor or a post hoc ergo propter hoc argument, e.g. the movie is bad because it violates canon or the movie contradicts canon, hence it is a bad movie.

As I said, I loved the film but I am not without my own critique. I'm sure I'll engage more in critiquing the film as the days wear on, but for now the most important thing about this movie is that it made me feel the excitement I once felt as a four-year old, watching reruns of TOS on television and playing with my Mego action figures.

To me, right now, that's the best accomplishment of this film.

 

[urbandk]

I will not allow you to lecture me!

 

[Flamegrape]

I do sense a certain amount of hostility towards critics of the film on this forum. There really is no need to viciously defend the movie since it's making more money than any of the other Trek films. If old fans dislike the new film, let them rant any way they want. Short of personal attacks, of course.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

All we're doing is posting opinions on a BBS.

None of this affects anything except our own moods and the tone of the group.

People who think they're going to change the course of Star Trek, or save it from something or another by criticizing this movie are just plain wrong.

People who think they're protecting the JJVerse from doom by defending it are just as wrong.

It doesn't matter. It's small talk.

You're wrong. God told me I should free the holy JJverse of the infidels. Can't you hear him?

 

[Amaris]

All we're doing is posting opinions on a BBS.

None of this affects anything except our own moods and the tone of the group.

People who think they're going to change the course of Star Trek, or save it from something or another by criticizing this movie are just plain wrong.

People who think they're protecting the JJVerse from doom by defending it are just as wrong.

It doesn't matter. It's small talk.

You're wrong. God told me I should free the holy JJverse of the infidels. Can't you hear him?

I hear him but he keeps telling me to burn things.
Odd, that. /scratches chin

J.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Look, when you say "That said, I spend almost no time and very, very rarely post in either the Voyager or DS9 forums. Why should I spend time there, since I don't like the shows?" you seem to be hinting that only those who liked the film are welcome.

Then you're reading it entirely backward, and I'm not responsible for that. You are.

I have no idea whether I'm welcome in the Voyager or DS9 forums. It doesn't matter to me, because I don't like the shows enough to spend much time there.

That said, if I chose to post there frequently about what I hated about those shows and people there became impatient, or rude, or ignored me, or wondered why I was there so often...well, I wouldn't really need to start topics asking them why they acted like that, would I?

Stay or go, just take responsibility and don't be thin-skinned.

 

[Captain_Rogers]

Kind of funny really, but this really reminds me of all the "Holy Wars" over old Galactica vs. New.

Insults, rude behavior, nasty personal comments etc.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

All we're doing is posting opinions on a BBS.

None of this affects anything except our own moods and the tone of the group.

People who think they're going to change the course of Star Trek, or save it from something or another by criticizing this movie are just plain wrong.

People who think they're protecting the JJVerse from doom by defending it are just as wrong.

It doesn't matter. It's small talk.

You're wrong. God told me I should free the holy JJverse of the infidels. Can't you hear him?

I hear him but he keeps telling me to burn things.
Odd, that. /scratches chin

J.

Listen to God. He knows what he's doing.

 

[Sky]

That said, if I chose to post there frequently about what I hated about those shows and people there became impatient, or rude, or ignored me, or wondered why I was there so often...well, I wouldn't really need to start topics asking them why they acted like that, would I?

Stay or go, just take responsibility and don't be thin-skinned.

To the best of my knowledge, I have not started such topics here either. I am under the impression that this place is the right place to discuss the new film; thus I am discussing it here. It is too bad that people cannot handle a difference in opinion without getting rude or impatient; I do not think that the right way to solve that problem is to stop voicing different opinions.

 

[DaveG]

I discuss the film here because I had high hopes for it, I was very enthusiastic about it, I waited for it for a looooong while and thought it'd probably be the best Trek I've seen after TUC. It fell flat and I was emotionally invested so now I am disappointed. I want the sequels to be better, way better. If only the positive opinions and reviews are voiced, I'm afraid we'll only get more of the same.

I agree. And I don't think this is complaining. Expressing an opinion -- Yes.
Complaining -- no.

 

[Overgeeked]

Odd how in your "short time here" you seem to have missed the very thing that sets people off. Comments such as "The morons are drinking Abrams bathwater" And the rash of insults and rude behavior directed at people who like the film.

you've missed comments like "most all of the old hands hated the film"

ranting about "not your father's Star Trek" as being an insult to the fan base, and presuming to speak for everyone.

You've also managed to ignore the absolute comments saying the movie is crap, and people who like it have been drinking kool aid.


tends to make one believe you are a troll.

I enjoyed the movie, and based on a number of factors, such as the majority of film goers are making positive remarks. Box office results are high for a trek film,and the people who are posting largely positive remarks are not the ones getting in people's faces over it.

I don't recall seeing threads like "I told you so bitches!!!!" and open it to find a gushing review of the film. The same cannot be said of the people who hated the film.

Seems to me the people who liked it are far more accepting and reasonable than those who didn't.

I'm not a troll, and I did miss some of those but not others. I'm not limiting my criticism to one side or the other. Because there are many more who enjoyed the film than did no, there's a lot more of the pro- side getting personal.

There's also the question of why, when a plot hole or some inconsistency in the film is brought up, the immediate reaction is: "ignore it, it was a good movie," or "you're just nit-picking." I'm not talking about the color of the nacelles, canon, or the timeline thing. I'm talking about bold face stupidity of the plot in places: like having to drill into a planet to create a black hole.

The pro-movie people instantly jump on and explain away the plot hole or dismiss the argument with "you're just a hater." This is exactly what I'm talking about. Squelching dissenting opinions.

A movie being popular doesn't make it good. You liking a film doesn't make it good. The reverse of both, of course, is also true.

Just because some people really liked it doesn't mean that the movie was brilliant and without flaws. And the vast majority of posts I've read say something to that effect. But, they also almost always contain some version of "don't worry about it," "it doesn't matter," or "I liked it so I'm not going to complain."

Your opinion of the film, one way or the other, has no bearing on the believability of drilling a planet to make a black hole (or promoting Kirk to Captain from a cadet on academic suspension). Why can't there be conversation about these things without a dozen posts about the OP being a hater, nit-picker, whatever?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

To the best of my knowledge, I have not started such topics here either.

No. You're just posting in one, about exactly that. Don't be disingenuous.

I do not think that the right way to solve that problem is to stop voicing different opinions.

No one's stopped you from posting an opinion yet.

No one is required to respond to your opinion in a way that meets with your approval.

That's all.

 

[Jon1701]

That said, if I chose to post there frequently about what I hated about those shows and people there became impatient, or rude, or ignored me, or wondered why I was there so often...well, I wouldn't really need to start topics asking them why they acted like that, would I?

Stay or go, just take responsibility and don't be thin-skinned.

To the best of my knowledge, I have not started such topics here either. I am under the impression that this place is the right place to discuss the new film; thus I am discussing it here. It is too bad that people cannot handle a difference in opinion without getting rude or impatient; I do not think that the right way to solve that problem is to stop voicing different opinions.

Nothing wrong with discussing the film. Nothing wrong with having problems with the movie. Personally, I didn't love the design aesthetic of the new Enterprise interiors. I didn't hate them, but I didn't love them either.

Loved the movie though.

My opinion is not gospel. My opinion is my own. Other people share it. Some don't. If you don't, that's fine. My girlfriend likes Star Trek, but she doesn't like Battlestar Galatica.

I certainly don't think less of her for it...(well, maybe a little bit )

People who loved this movie do not (on the whole) have a bad attitude. Why would you? Really, why would you? Why would you be an arse about something you enjoyed?

'Tis the other way around...

 

[Sky]

No one is required to respond to your opinion in a way that meets with your approval.

And I'm not expecting anyone to. Don't be so defensive.

 

[Shatterhand]

To ask such a question is ludicrous. Of course it's not beyond criticism. The movie was NOT perfect. It had its flaws. It's certainly worthy of not only close scrutiny and criticism, but outright hatred and rejection. Personally, having seen it three times, I'm still having to look hard to see what was not good about it, but I've been a staunch supporter of Abrams' version of Trek from the day I first heard about it, because I SO wanted someone else to take the reins of the franchise for awhile.

But, since the fandom pendulum swings only to extremes, ESPECIALLY when it comes to Star Trek, there seems to be no allowance for a "middle of the road" viewpoint. You either have to like it and be accepted, or hate it and be chastised.

Both sides are wrong; both sides are arrogant and presumptuous; both sides are unreasonable in their terms.

The ONLY problem I have with the naysayers here is that they think in absolutes. They consider this new movie the death of the Star Trek they've known and loved. I can't abide by this, because the Roddenberry/Berman Trek 'verse is still very much alive, thanks to the novels, comic books, and the upcoming MMORPG, Star Trek Online. In fact, the new movie seems to have generated a fresh interest in the Original Series among people that have seen it. I've talked to several friends who never saw an episode of any Star Trek series who now want to watch the Original Series because they enjoyed the movie so much.

Will Paramount greenlight a new series or movie set in the Roddenberry/Berman 'verse? Not very likely, since the disappointing ratings of Enterprise and the dismal returns from Nemesis pretty much closed the book on that idea. But, is that 'verse gone forever? Not at all. In fact, Abrams made it a point to explain that his version of TREK was an alternate reality, and I can't help but be amused at the people who have a problem with that, when they'll readily accept the Mirror Universe, which is also an alternate reality.

Everyone is free to feel one way or another about the movie or about the future of Star Trek. I choose to take the tack that Star Trek is experiencing a renaissance and that the movie will spark a whole new interest in the franchise, both old and new. If you disagree, fair enough. Embrace the Trek that you love, and be happy with it; no harm, no foul. But don't belittle it because it's not YOUR Trek. And for those who love it, be tolerant of those who don't agree with you. They're not misunderstood or narrow-minded; they just saw flaws you didn't see.

 

[VonHelton]

ranting about "not your father's Star Trek" as being an insult to the fan base, and presuming to speak for everyone.

Actually, "Not your father's Trek" comes from Paramount, and was echoed in the media.

....I can provide links, if you like.

 

[PKTrekGirl]

"[Reviewing this movie is] a daunting task because the producers and Internet reviewers have set up a scenario in which the movie is beyond criticism. If you don't simply accept everything the film presents then you are branded a "nit-picker" who can't see past his strict adherence to canon..."

From here.

I have definitely seen this attitude across this board, even in my short time here.

Why is it so hard to accept that intelligent people can disagree about the aesthetics of a movie? Disagreeing with someone doesn't make them retarded, stupid, lifeless, etc.

This new movie is Star Trek (because it's labeled as such), whether you like the movie or not.

It is canon (because it's on screen), whether you like it or not.

It is not hard to accept that intelligent people can disagree about the aesthetics of the movie. I LOVED the movie, but I could not possibly care less if you dislike it. Or even hate it. And I don't think you are any less intelligent than whatever you were before you started hating it.

However, that has nothing whatever to do with a) whether or not it's Star Trek; or b) whether or not it's canon.

You don't have to LIKE it...but like it or not, it IS Star Trek. It has the Star Trek name, it's done and approved by Paramount, and it's set in the Star Trek universe with Star Trek characters. Further, it is legally Star Trek, with all the copyrights, etc.

That to me, is Star Trek. You don't have to like it. But it's Star Trek nonetheless. And denying that FACT is just absurd.

I hated Enterprise...but I still accept that it is Star Trek. I hated Nemesis even MORE and thought it was one of the worst movies I'd ever seen, like EVER in my entire life....but it's still Star Trek.... whether *I* like it or not. And for the very reasons I stated above. I may hate these two incarnations of Star Trek (and while I'm at it...not too fond of Insurrection either ...and since we're cookin' with gas, I really hate Voyager's Endgame too!) but they have the Star Trek name, are put out by Paramount...who owns the rights to Trek releases, and are set in the Trek universe with Trek characters. So they are Star Trek. And I just have to DEAL with that FACT.

The same holds true for canon. It has been stated by authoritative sources numerous times that canon is anything that appeared on screen in an official Star Trek release.

Now, I wish like HELL that These are the Voyages.... (which in my view was an outrage, and turned all of ENT into an incredibly STUPID TNG holodeck program, pretty much...not to mention being guilty of robbing the ENT crew of a proper send-off) was not canon. But my wishing it does not make it so.

It's canon. And I have to accept that.

Just like I have to accept that the plot of Nemesis, which had such large plotholes in it that you could run an entire FLEET of starships through it, is canon.

Sucks that it is. But I have to accept that.

So bottom line: You don't have to like the movie. You can hate the movie for all I care. Matters not in the slightest.

But like it or not, the film is Star Trek...and Star Trek canon. And it is just silly to ignore those facts....because you are only fooling yourself.

Personally, I don't even see how one person could even make the claim that their own personal likes or dislikes effect whether the film is Star Trek for everyone else. Or is canon for everyone else.

That, to me, seems pretty egotistical. As if to say "My personal likes or dislikes completely negate and overrule anything the studio says and anything that would hold up in a court of law as legally Star Trek."

Takes a mighty big ego to say that!

Further....I'd wager that if everyone in this forum made a list of episodes/films/series they don't 'like', and we as a group ruled that anything any one member didn't 'like' was no longer Star Trek....buddy, there would BE no more Star Trek.

Cus I bet we could find at least one member of this forum who dislikes pretty much every episode of Trek, for one reason or another.

Maybe we might be left with The Wrath of Khan. Although I believe there is at least one member here who dislikes all the Trek movies except for The Motion Picture.

So TWOK might even be out.

Poor Star Trek. No longer exists.