Is Spock the main character of TOS?

[albion432]

Thank you for taking the time to respond to this thread and your willingness to express your opinions on the subject. It’s been more helpful than you may realize. Unfortunately it seems I haven’t come across very well in posting this thread. I am very new at posting in a forum, having never done so before two days ago! Perhaps I shouldn’t have created a new thread until I had a better idea what to expect from it.

That strikes me as trying to force the evidence to fit an interpretation rather than formulating an interpretation that fits the evidence. The problem with applying a "hero's journey" formulation to TOS is that it's meant to apply to a single narrative arc with a clear beginning, middle, and end. TOS doesn't work that way. It was an episodic series in which each individual installment was meant to be a complete arc and there was no specific direction or change intended for the series as a whole, just episode after episode for as long as the series could avoid cancellation. It then had a sequel series in animation, and then a series of revival movies later on. It's far too fragmented to be treated as a single "journey." So I don't think Campbell's monomyth is an appropriate model to apply here.

I can see where you’re coming from in the first paragraph. I would have probably felt the same way under these circumstances. We don’t know each other, and for all I know I’ve come across as a complete crack pot. Just like with Nerys Myk, I don’t know your level of understand regarding the hero’s journey, and feel no need to defend my own, but it seems like you are at least familiar with it. Again, I need to stress it was a misnomer to restrict the scope of this topic to just TOS. I meant this topic to cover the entire body of filmed Kirk/Spock adventures. Unless there’s a distinction which encompasses this corpus of material, I would like to continue using TOS when referring to it.

Good grief, that's the most profound misinterpretation of Kirk I've heard in a long time. Kirk is a born leader, with or without captain's stripes. Look at "The Paradise Syndrome." He doesn't even remember who he is, but he still takes naturally to a leadership role and guides the people toward a better life. (We'll try to overlook the problematical "white man enlightening the natives" trope there, for the sake of this discussion.) Heck, see the 2009 movie, where he's a cadet lieutenant and still ends up convincing everyone to follow his lead. As Spock said in TWOK, command was Kirk's "first, best destiny." He wasn't just handed those stripes; he earned them -- because of the qualities within him. As we saw in "The Galileo Seven" and "The Tholian Web," Spock could be placed in a command position and not handle it nearly as well as Kirk -- that, indeed, he needed to draw on Kirk's advice and example (as well as McCoy's pestering) in order to manage it.

Again, I obviously didn’t do a very good job at explaining my position. I will try to be more clear here. I completely understand and believe Kirk has earned his position as Captain of the Enterprise. I think his leadership skill are exemplary, and he is a very intelligent and insightful leader of men. I was trying to point out the reason why Kirk is in position of lead character in the series is because of his rank as captain. The position itself is what puts Kirk in the position of making the decisions which push the plot forward, which is the role of the protagonist. I do not doubt for a minute he has earned the right to sit in the center seat, but his qualification was not my point at all. I hope I made the distinction clear.

I've responded to the last part of your post line by line below:

Campbell is not an "authority."

Here is where I have to strongly disagree with you. Not only was Campbell an authority on the hero’s journey, he was the authority on the subject. Campbell literally wrote the book on the hero’s journey for Pete’s sake!

He was talking about basic themes that underlie cultural myths,

If you believe Campell was only referring to “basic themes that underlie cultural myths” then you have given yourself away. To me that indicates a one-dimensional understanding of his work. Any understanding of it is better than no understanding, don't get me wrong. However, it is soooo much more than what you have indicated it to be.

but he certainly wasn't saying that every single work of fiction is required to conform to a single formula.

Correct, I have never seen him quoted as saying that.

He was describing the pattern, not prescribing it.

As Chekov said once, “if the shoe fits, wear it.”

And he wasn't writing about the structure of episodic television series.

That is a logical conclusion, since he published The Hero With A Thousand Faces in 1949.

Yes -- you're coming from a completely different direction than I am. We're not going to be able to agree on this.

That’s a shame, predictable, but a shame. Despite one of the most important things Star Trek attempted to teach us, people still tend to reject what is strange to them instead of seeking to understand it.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Hmmmm, do you have examples for the first part of Hero's Journey that fits what we know of Spock?

1) The Call to Adventure

2) Refusal of the Call

3) Supernatural Aid

4) Crossing The Threshold

5) Belly of The Whale

 

[albion432]

Hmmmm, do you have examples for the first part of Hero's Journey that fits what we know of Spock?

1) The Call to Adventure

2) Refusal of the Call

3) Supernatural Aid

4) Crossing The Threshold

5) Belly of The Whale

Yes, actually. Thanks for asking.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Hmmmm, do you have examples for the first part of Hero's Journey that fits what we know of Spock?

1) The Call to Adventure

2) Refusal of the Call

3) Supernatural Aid

4) Crossing The Threshold

5) Belly of The Whale

Yes, actually. Thanks for asking.

Since we obviously don't get involved in Spock's life until he is in his mid-30's, well past the initial stage of the hero journey, this section is going to be incomplete simply because it was not filmed, we still have plenty to go on. I will give examples, but will not go into much detail. And before I proceed, here is something to keep in mind: "If one or another of the basic elements of the archetypal pattern is omitted from a given fairy tale, legend, ritual, or myth, it is bound to be somehow or other implied—and the omission itself can speak volumes for the history and pathology of the example." -Hero With A Thousand Faces pg. 35-36

1) Discussed in Journey To Babel, led to rift with father
2) Initial refusal to the call to adventure not discussed, or indicated. In Spock's case may not have occurred at all.
3) First example is in Charlie X when the Thasian's recall Charlie. Several more incidents occur throughout the series.
4) Take your pick, every time Spock uses the transporter he is crossing a threshold. Sometime a second threshold is crossed like in City on the Edge or All Our Yesterdays
5) The Immunity Syndrome is a perfect example. So is the scene in Garrivick's quarters in Obsession. Basically one enters the belly of the beast whenever it seems likely they have died and there is little or no hope they will return.

1) The rift with Sarek is the result of Spock joining Starfleet, not the cause. The why would be his "Call".

3) How are the Thasians part of Spock's journey? Charlie's journey for sure, but Spock's? They don't act as mentor or guides for Spock, they just take Charlie away.

4) Using a transporter is like hopping in a cab. So I'm not sure that works. GoF is better, but that seems to be more of Kirk's journey, with Spock along for the ride.

5) Those aren't really transformative. V'Ger would be the best choice here.

 

[albion432]

Hmmmm, do you have examples for the first part of Hero's Journey that fits what we know of Spock?

1) The Call to Adventure

2) Refusal of the Call

3) Supernatural Aid

4) Crossing The Threshold

5) Belly of The Whale

Yes, actually. Thanks for asking.

Since we obviously don't get involved in Spock's life until he is in his mid-30's, well past the initial stage of the hero journey, this section is going to be incomplete simply because it was not filmed, we still have plenty to go on. I will give examples, but will not go into much detail. And before I proceed, here is something to keep in mind: "If one or another of the basic elements of the archetypal pattern is omitted from a given fairy tale, legend, ritual, or myth, it is bound to be somehow or other implied—and the omission itself can speak volumes for the history and pathology of the example." -Hero With A Thousand Faces pg. 35-36

1) Discussed in Journey To Babel, led to rift with father
2) Initial refusal to the call to adventure not discussed, or indicated. In Spock's case may not have occurred at all.
3) First example is in Charlie X when the Thasian's recall Charlie. Several more incidents occur throughout the series.
4) Take your pick, every time Spock uses the transporter he is crossing a threshold. Sometime a second threshold is crossed like in City on the Edge or All Our Yesterdays
5) The Immunity Syndrome is a perfect example. So is the scene in Garrivick's quarters in Obsession. Basically one enters the belly of the beast whenever it seems likely they have died and there is little or no hope they will return.

1) The rift with Sarek is the result of Spock joining Starfleet, not the cause. The why would be his "Call".

3) How are the Thasians part of Spock's journey? Charlie's journey for sure, but Spock's? They don't act as mentor or guides for Spock, they just take Charlie away.

4) Using a transporter is like hopping in a cab. So I'm not sure that works. GoF is better, but that seems to be more of Kirk's journey, with Spock along for the ride.

5) Those aren't really transformative. V'Ger would be the best choice here.

Yes, V'ger is another very good example.

 

[Lucky]

Kirk was always the protagonist. Spock was the deuteragonist.

 

[Push The Button]

Spock is probably the best known and most popular character, sort of like Kramer on Seinfeld. Kirk was the main character, however.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Note that Nimoy directed ST III. In the very film where he brought Spock back, he also took pains to kill off his rival for "main character" status, namely the Enterprise.

The 1701-A then had the thankless task of filling in for a fan favorite, much like Priscilla Barnes replacing Suzanne Somers on Three's Company or Cheryl Ladd coming into Charlie's Angels for Farrah Fawcett. It's never quite the same, which was Nimoy's plan all along.

Except........... Harve Bennett has always gone on record as having written the script by himself. Nimoy, I'm sure, had plenty to contribute, but the script, and therefore the destruction of the Enterprise, was Harve Bennett's baby.

 

[Mudd]

When TOS was on NBC, Spock was easily the most popular character on the show.

 

[albion432]

Here are some facts to support this idea:
1. Spock was the first character Roddenberry created for Star Trek after getting the obligatory “Number One” character of out of the way, which he conceived to fulfil a promised he made to his mistress and future wife that she’d be a part of his next series.

Source, please? I haven't heard that before, and it sounds unlikely. We know that Roddenberry was inspired by the Horatio Hornblower novels, so it seems likely that the first character he conceived was the captain (although it took him a long time to settle on a name).

A lot has been written about the development and production of ST, but I can't recall reading anything about Roddenberry's earliest creative process before the original 1964 pitch document, which lists multiple characters including Captain April (later Pike), Number One, Jose Ortegas (later Tyler), Dr. Boyce, the "probably half-Martian" first lieutenant Spock, and Yeoman Colt, in that order. Note that Spock is second-last in the list, hardly the position you'd expect to find the lead character.

According to Majel Barrett, the first character introduced in the [Cage] script was Number One. "That was the first character Gene wrote into the script," Barrett stated. "Captain April was not an afterthought because he knew he had to have a captain, but the first character that was described was Number One." (Star Trek Monthly issue 27, p. 43)

As promised, when I came across the evidence to support my claim, I'd post it immediately. 1 down, 1 to go . . .