Maz does state that she is no Jedi but knows the Force. Which indicates that Force knowledge is not exclusively the realm of the Jedi, and that one can be aware of it without Jedi training.
Poll Is Rey a Mary Sue?
- Thread starter fireproof78
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I liked TPM, so your point is invalid. Also, using the c-word to describe a nine-year-old? Not cool.
Dooku was also meant to be one of the greatest swordmasters the Jedi Order had ever seen. Of course he's going to be just about anyone in a straight duel.
I liked TPM, so your point is invalid. Also, using the c-word to describe a nine-year-old? Not cool.
Dooku was also meant to be one of the greatest swordmasters the Jedi Order had ever seen. Of course he's going to be just about anyone in a straight duel.
Whereas Kylo Ren is anything but a great swordsman, Finn gives him a fight despite not being a force user in the slightest.
People drawing a parallel between Rey/Ren and Anakin/Dooku to portray Rey as overpowered are failing to grasp the disparity between the two pairings.
Indeed, this is a theme throughout SW, that the force is in no sense exclusively the domain of the Jedi/Sith.
They have particular philosophies and training methods to achieve particular goals but the force underlies all life and is accessible to anyone with the patience and sensitivity. TLJ expands on this at great length with Luke decrying the arrogance of the Jedi claiming dominion or even prominence within nature as the absolute masters of the force.
I did, however, mean Rey had had similar experiences.
I liked TPM, so your point is invalid. Also, using the c-word to describe a nine-year-old? Not cool.
Dooku was also meant to be one of the greatest swordmasters the Jedi Order had ever seen. Of course he's going to be just about anyone in a straight duel.
The "c-word" haha.
It's still precedent. Liked or not, Anakin demonstrated Force abilities without "meeting a Jedi." The Force exists within all life and it clearly can develop in people without knowing the Jedi.
Established how? Via spoken dialog? Same thing that Rey does.
She does what Luke does:
She uses the Force in a similar manner established by ANH-she acts on instinct, something that has been living her life on since being a child:
You can not like her as a character, you can find her bland and boring. That doesn't make her a Mary Sue.
Rey spent 15 years just trying to survive, learning to rely upon her instincts to keep herself going. She was probably the most uniquely suited person to respond to the Force's promoting as described by Obi-Wan
Anakin didn't show any force usage in TPM. It was the same as Luke, but dialed up a hundred times, it was to show a latent ability to use the force, Luke only showed glimpses. TPM is a bad bad bad bad movie as well.
Rey, without any knowledge, is using force tricks, using a lightsaber effectively (something Luke never did til the third movie).
The picture you posted was fucking stupid as well. Luke was established as an excellent pilot that has been flying since he was a boy, but he still needed a ton of help - Empire? He fucking gets shot down and his co-pilot dies. Anakin has been a trained Jedi for at least two decades by that point of the movie. Rey? Its the first time she has flown the Falcon and flies it better than Han ever did, defeating TIE Fighters and pulling off death defying tricks like she has been flying it for decades.
Rey was using MIND TRICKS. Luke was using reflexes under the tutelage of a Jedi Master, while being the son of the most powerful force user in history.
Rey is a bad character and Mary Sue. She is Mary Sue 101. I don't think she is a self insert, but she is definitely a cynical attempt to cash in on the current neoliberal trends to make money off feminism and copy Hunger Games.
Incorrect.
She already had combat skills with a melee weapon. As noted by others in this thread she wields the lightsaber in a similar manner to her staff. Luke had limited demonstration of combat abilities.
Established by what? The only dialog is he is a fair pilot, both from Luke and Obi-Wan. Yet, he is demonstrated to be able to fly a combat vessel with no training.
He had one session.
And now the arguments are becoming nonsensical. Lucas came up with a female protagonist first. Disney has used female protagonists for years. The idea of a "cynical cash grab" is absurdist, at best.
She might be a bad character-I disagree on that point, but I certainly can appreciate that POV. She is not a Mary Sue.
Lightsaber =/= Staff. Beating up random junkers =/= trained force user.
Biggs talks about him being the best bush pilot he has ever seen, Luke says he is a great pilot, bullseye womprats in his T-16 back home and they aren't much more than 2 meters etc. The movie sets up Luke as being a competent pilot, turns out Luke is an above average pilot, but not even the best in the OT from what we see - Wedge seems to pull a lot more off. Luke needed a ton of help to take out the Death Star, Vader was about to blow him out of the sky, Wedge saved his bacon and Obi-Wan had to help him out so he didn't miss like the other dude. Why? Cause he was at the start of his journey, he was still an underdog character. People like the underdog characters. Rey isn't an underdog, she has crushed everything and everyone in her path so far, all within the space of two movies that seemingly take place over 3 or 4 days.
And showed very latent force abilities, more like reflexes than anything. Which sets up later in the movie when he does the same thing. I don't know the time differences between movies, but by the time of Empire, Luke still isn't proficient with a lightsaber or the usage of the force, he has matured and clearly practicing, but we see him struggling to use the force to pull his lightsaber to him a short distance. Even after an unspecified time on Dagobah, which I assume to be a month or two, he gets his shit absolutely pushed in by Vader, falls into his trap and needs his ass saving by Lando.
The first time we see Luke doing anything impressive with a lightsaber is Jedi and the Barge, 4-5 years after he first learns of the force.
He served in the Womp Rat Wars. The denizens of Beggar's Canyon still spit when mentioning his name.
Just give up already.
I disagree. Anakin's ability to see into the future was referenced in dialog in TPM.
QUI-GON : He has special powers.
SHMI : Yes...
QUI-GON : He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It is a Jedi trait.
SHMI : Yes...
QUI-GON : He can see things before they happen. That's why he appears to have such quick reflexes. It is a Jedi trait.
https://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-The-Phantom-Menace.html
By implication, this is what gave Anakin the ability to compete in the pod races. We saw him win a pod race, ergo we saw Anakin use the Force according to his natural abilities.
And while we're on the subject, in TPM, we saw little boy Anakin win a pod race and out-fly veteran starpilots.
Wounded trained Force user, who isn't fully trained and who is pulling his punches since he doesn't want to kill her.
Lightsaber is a melee weapon. Generalizing of skills. I've seen it done before when I would spar and play tennis. Yes, it works.
Luke says he is a pilot and then demonstrates it. Rey says she is a pilot and demonstrates it.
And so does Rey.
Exactly. People can not like TPM all they want that doesn't change the fact that it establishes ideas about using Force powers without training.
Yep. And tossing it out because one thinks it is a bad movie that no one likes* is just cherry-picking.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking
TPM is as much Star Wars as any of the other episodes.
* - I like it best of the PT.
Rey worked for Unkar Plutt. Unkar Plutt runs a spaceport on Jakku. Rey is familiar with the flight status, capabilities, and characteristics of those spacecraft, including the Falcon. She scavenges parts for the spacecraft, meaning she knows how to repair them. She explicitly identifies herself as a pilot. She's shown flying the Falcon. She knows the parts it needs to work properly. How much more do you need to know, because that's as much development as Luke got. She's likely responsible for ferrying the spacecraft back and forth to different locations and tasks on or in orbit of Jakku.
She met a former Jedi padawan: Kylo Ren. Kylo taught her how to do the mind trick when he probed her mind and she tried to resist. Then she used what she had learned to try and convince the Daniel Craig stormtrooper to listen to her but failed the first time (so not perfectly).
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Anakin flat out says he's the only human that can do pod-racing. It requires enhanced senses and reaction times that normal humans can't handle. That's because of his innate Force powers, which he got without any training or exposure to the Jedi.
He has an innate Force enhanced ability to fix and construct machines like droids and pod-racers. That's why Watto valued him so highly, on top of his pod-racing skills.
Anakin winged his way into surviving a space battle and destroying a droid control ship with the Force without any training.
He has an innate Force enhanced ability to fix and construct machines like droids and pod-racers. That's why Watto valued him so highly, on top of his pod-racing skills.
Anakin winged his way into surviving a space battle and destroying a droid control ship with the Force without any training.
If I remember right, during the part where she and Finn are congratulating each other on pulling off the escape, she straight up says she's got flight experience. It's an easy line to miss but it gives her piloting abilities exactly as much explanation as they need.
I was just coming here to make that same argument. Every character ever written could be considered a Mary Sue to one degree or another.
Which is what I said. Reflexes. No active use of powers. Dreams. He was established in the movie as being one of the strongest recorded force users ever as far as latent talents go.
None of this was in the movie. Nor was it ever implied that Rey flew ships, or she may have got off the shit hole planet. The Falcon was a ship with no activity and was just a wreck. She flies it expertly, pulls off some amazing maneuvers and doesn't she later on in the movie show up Han? Mary Sue 101. Luke didn't even know what the fuck was going on in the cockpit of the ship and Han scolded him for it.
It was clear in the film that she wouldn’t stay away from Jakku because she was waiting for her parents to come back.
