Poll Is Rey a Mary Sue?

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I probably wouldn't buy the lightning, except for the fact that it worked as the cap-off to the story. What I mean is that I hate the video games where you play Palpatine and he runs around Hoth shooting lighting at the other players. in RotJ it was just the capper.. Palpatine failed to get the necessary aggression and impatience out of Luke, so he used to lightning to destroy him.. giving the viewers a visual of how powerful the Dark Side would be.. and showing how dangerous it was for Vader to interfere.. it worked cinematically.. and that's why these franchises can sometimes suffer when making prequels and sequels because not the lore just becomes "well they did it here, so what about here?" and then the people that are making these sequels and prequels (which are usually not very good) just lessen how good the originals were and then they blame the originals for not building the world the way their stupid prequel or sequel needs to be built.. It's all just argument fodder, not good storytelling​

 

[Set Harth]

this is the same filmmaker that made it so Khan could BEAM from a small craft on earth to Kronos..

Well, at least they had established the concept in the previous film...

 

[Turtletrekker]

Well, at least they had established the concept in the previous film...

IIRC, The Dominion could do that all the back in DS9.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

Well, at least they had established the concept in the previous film...

but then.. yeah... you then have then trying to stop a supernova by creating a black hole.. neither of which would make the planet habitable. .. but we are getting off topic about the mary sue thing, but it's all still important.. because with both Trek and Wars there is a long history of the worldbuilding having already been done, and all JJ had to do was use that. but instead he just kind of does what he wants... and the connective tissue between the important scenes and moments all feel as thin and shallow as the cut scenes between the major action pieces in video games.. those pre-animated parts of the game that connect the story in the most basic of ways.

and the fans have to work hard to say things like "Rey just knew.. she never flew the ship, but she.. worked on it. (still doesn't explain the impossible maneuvers she was doing". or. "she knows the mind trick of course because..(looks for anything) she downloaded the training from Ren). yeah sure." It's like whatever JJ doesn't write, means that that is wiggle room to write. The originals did this too on a limited basis, but they had a solid story at bottom and limitations that seemed to be somewhat well thought out (like the death star having to be in position after orbiting the planet before it can fire.. a concept that makes sense, adds tension, and yet doesn't need a lot of dialogue and is NOT lazy storytelling)

 

[JD]

I'd say interpreting that Rey must've read Kylo Ren's mind in the scene where she's explicitly shown reading Kylo Ren's mind, while he is explicitly attempting to read her mind in the exact same way he'd already done to Poe at the begging of the film isn't much of a fanwank.

I didn't realize she had downloaded all of his training, I thought she had just mimicked what he had done to her when she did the mind trick on the stormtrooper.

 

[fireproof78]

yeah.. maybe .. I'm not convinced.

Not convinced of what? That I figured it out watching the film? Because both myself and another poster stated that they did. And, as much as I love TFA I never got around to reading the novel.

But throughout the films JJ makes, there is always that connective tissue between one important element and another element.. eventually it all just leads to set-pieces, but it just feels like there is so much that isn't explained and that others (or the audience) are basically writing the film for him

I completely disagree that it isn't connected together and just goes from set piece to set piece. But, I'm also invested in the characters so that might be the difference.

but then.. yeah... you then have then trying to stop a supernova by creating a black hole.. neither of which would make the planet habitable. .. but we are getting off topic about the mary sue thing, but it's all still important.. because with both Trek and Wars there is a long history of the worldbuilding having already been done, and all JJ had to do was use that. but instead he just kind of does what he wants... and the connective tissue between the important scenes and moments all feel as thin and shallow as the cut scenes between the major action pieces in video games.. those pre-animated parts of the game that connect the story in the most basic of ways.

And you and I will disagree agree. I love what Abrams did with both Trek and Star Wars and I think he brings his own creative flavor to it in a way that is underappreciated.

Thin and shallow are not how I would describe. I would describe it as deeper than he gets credit for because there is a tendency to want to have information spoonfed, rather than engaging the material. And this is a general observation, starting with Abrams Trek, so its not directed at you specifically.

But, I do think that many of the complaints about Rey are simply invalid, because Luke and Anakin did the exact same thing. Again, where is the training for Luke pulling a lightsaber to him? Anakin knowing how to build droids and fly a starfighther? Where are the explanation for those feats?

I love TFA and TLJ because it treats the Force a bit more like it was in ANH:

Yup, that's a whole lot of training there...somehow he blew up the Death Star with it.

 

[BillJ]

How did Luke learn how to retrieve his light saber at the beginning of Empire?

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

your last point.. he took a shot.. using the force.. the fat that the shot blew up a big machine isn't the point.. he btook a shot clearing his head of the fact that it was this huge thing.. which is why Vader knew early in the film this could happen and was only beginning to articulate it.

JJ simply writes.. He doesn't think. I mean Kylo holding a blaster bolt in the air for a whole scene? That kind of thing has never happened before? But it looks cool. like dangling a shiney thing in front of a cat. He is the samne guy that put huge water tubes in the beer store.. i'm sorry.. the engine rooms of the enterprise.. despite all the work that had already been put into the franchise by Probert and his team to show how a ship like the big E might function.. ah it's ok.. just put big water tubes in there.. and let's forget that there is no room for such a big room on the ship.. (it reminds me of how Discovery shows turbolifts on rollercoaster tracks in empty spacious areas that seem to exit nowhere).

I appreciate aspects of JJ's style, but to me he is "pat myself on the back" director and doesn't have the wherewithal to even begin to make his worlds actually work. Terminator is 35 years old today, and some of the SFX have no aged, but Cameron was really determined to make something that seemed to work as you watched it.. it was made with a certain conviction that seems to be lacking in modern genre storytelling.

I

 

[fireproof78]

your last point.. he took a shot.. using the force.. the fat that the shot blew up a big machine isn't the point.. he btook a shot clearing his head of the fact that it was this huge thing.. which is why Vader knew early in the film this could happen and was only beginning to articulate it.

JJ simply writes.. He doesn't think. I mean Kylo holding a blaster bolt in the air for a whole scene? That kind of thing has never happened before? But it looks cool. like dangling a shiney thing in front of a cat. He is the samne guy that put huge water tubes in the beer store.. i'm sorry.. the engine rooms of the enterprise.. despite all the work that had already been put into the franchise by Probert and his team to show how a ship like the big E might function.. ah it's ok.. just put big water tubes in there.. and let's forget that there is no room for such a big room on the ship.. (it reminds me of how Discovery shows turbolifts on rollercoaster tracks in empty spacious areas that seem to exit nowhere).

I appreciate aspects of JJ's style, but to me he is "pat myself on the back" director and doesn't have the wherewithal to even begin to make his worlds actually work. Terminator is 35 years old today, and some of the SFX have no aged, but Cameron was really determined to make something that seemed to work as you watched it.. it was made with a certain conviction that seems to be lacking in modern genre storytelling.

I

I watch Abrams' films and it works for me. I have very little issue with Engineering in the Enterprise, as a ship that size needs stores of liquids for a long voyage.

No, I have no problem with Kylo holding a blaster bolt, any more than I have a problem with Luke pulling his lightsaber, Force lightning, or telepathy across distances. Each piece is adding to the lore.

None of which has anything to do with Rey as a Mary Sue.

 

[BillJ]

I appreciate aspects of JJ's style, but to me he is "pat myself on the back" director and doesn't have the wherewithal to even begin to make his worlds actually work. Terminator is 35 years old today, and some of the SFX have no aged, but Cameron was really determined to make something that seemed to work as you watched it.. it was made with a certain conviction that seems to be lacking in modern genre storytelling.

Oh, Jesus. You kids get off of my lawn!!!

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

I watch Abrams' films and it works for me. I have very little issue with Engineering in the Enterprise, as a ship that size needs stores of liquids for a long voyage.

transports could beam cooling water.. i guess but .. hey whatever you say..

None of which has anything to do with Rey as a Mary Sue.

maybe not directly, but it's all about storytelling, approach, and verisimilitude, thinking about how things work, how things are written.. and it can all be traced to characters too

 

[fireproof78]

transports could beam cooling water.. i guess but .. hey whatever you say

They still need a place to store said liquids, reactant fluids, etc. Strangely, TOS fan schematics had giant storage tanks too...weird

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/fa/c8/f1/fac8f1a3ded735074438625617bb14d8.jpg
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net...ision/latest?cb=20110412104334&path-prefix=en

But, we're off-topic now

 

[EnderAKH]

Not convinced of what? That I figured it out watching the film? Because both myself and another poster stated that they did. And, as much as I love TFA I never got around to reading the novel.

Make that three, I had no trouble following what was going on via non-verbal communication. And I've only read the Thrawn trilogy and a couple of Rogue Squadron novels.

 

[Spot261]

according to the novelization, she downloaded all of Ren's training during that scene. Sorry bro.. that's VERY important.. to the story and bad filmmaking means we have no idea that it happened.

It isn't generally considered a bad thing when a film requires a little thought on the part of the viewer.

 

[The Wormhole]

this is the same filmmaker that made it so Khan could BEAM from a small craft on earth to Kronos..

Actually, no. Abrams has no writing credit on STID, so you can't pin that one on him.

 

[fireproof78]

It isn't generally considered a bad thing when a film requires a little thought on the part of the viewer.

That's my thinking as well. It seems that everything requires exposition now or else it "doesn't make sense."

Personally, I don't need everything explained to me in a film. I'm ok making inferences and engaging with the material.

 

[USS Firefly]

Or maybe it is Darth Sidious unknown twin?

 

[BillJ]

Actually, no. Abrams has no writing credit on STID, so you can't pin that one on him.

Either way, the tech had been established in the previous film. One may not like it, but I'm not seeing the issue with its use in Star Trek Into Darkness.

 

[The Wormhole]

Either way, the tech had been established in the previous film. One may not like it, but I'm not seeing the issue with its use in Star Trek Into Darkness.

True enough, but since Abrams also doesn't have a writing credit on Trek XI, the point still stands that we can't blame him for creating long range transporters.

Indeed, long range transporters have been around as early as TNG's seventh season, long before Abrams, Orci, Lindelof, Kurtzman or any of their filthy ilk touched the franchise.

 

[fireproof78]

Indeed, long range transporters have been around as early as TNG's seventh season, long before Abrams, Orci, Lindelof, Kurtzman or any of their filthy ilk touched the franchise.

But, as we all know, when Abrams does something it equals bad.