Is Nemesis unfairly criticized?

[Dukhat]

I agree

Insurrection was even more indulging of Stewart and Spicer, and had an even more shitty script. At least Nemesis TRIED for something. Insurrection was like "wheee let's just make a movie or something guys!!!"

The main problem with all four of the TNG films are that they are all indulgences for S&S at the expense of the other cast members. But by the time of Nemesis, it had gotten so bad that they actually let Patrick Stewart play himself instead of Picard (for that godawful jeep scene). And pretty much any scenes with the other cast (i.e. Worf's promotion, Riker & Troi's wedding, etc.) were just one-off scenes that had nothing to do with the main plot of the movie. Now compare that with the TOS films. Sure, the focus was still primarily on Kirk and Spock, but the other cast members also got to shine, arguably more than they ever did in TOS.

If I were Sirtis, Burton and McFadden, I would have been pissed, unless all they really cared about was getting a paycheck. At least Dorn had DS9, and Frakes had his directing job.

 

[DarKush]

I don't think Nemesis was unfairly criticized. It deserved a lot of criticism. I recall feeling a bit underwhelmed when I left the theater after seeing it. Upon repeat viewings, I liked the film more than I did the first time, but the film still has a lot of problems. What I think worked was Tom Hardy's performance, the cinematography, and colors seemed pretty rich for the film, and a good deal of the Battle of Bassen Rift. I thought the Remans were a cool design and I also liked the Valdore-type warbirds.

But I think the film was lacking too much in character moments, didn't care for B-4, and never got Shinzon's motivations. I've said before, on various threads about this that I felt his ultimate plan just went one or two extra steps that it didn't have to. It was the Romulans who enslaved Shinzon and tortured Shinzon that Shinzon would want to wipe them out, not attack Earth to prove that he's better than Picard, a man who didn't do anything to him and didn't even know he existed. Shinzon is basically fulfilling the mission he was created for, which doesn't really go against the Romulans, he's still trying to prove himself to them in a way, and that didn't make sense to me.

I think Shinzon should've attempted to destroy Romulus and have Picard and crew risk all to save the Romulans, forging a peace deal between Earth and Romulus as a result, and closing out the TNG franchise on a high note. I think they should've emulated The Undiscovered Country more than going for another Wrath of Khan repeat.

 

[Dukhat]

I think Shinzon should've attempted to destroy Romulus and have Picard and crew risk all to save the Romulans, forging a peace deal between Earth and Romulus as a result, and closing out the TNG franchise on a high note. I think they should've emulated The Undiscovered Country more than going for another Wrath of Khan repeat.

Agreed. And not only that, but get rid of the whole clone idea. It was painfully obvious that no one was buying that Shinzon was some kind of alternate version of young Picard if he never had the breaks that Picard had. He's just some annoying over-the-top punk kid who managed a coup with help and a big bad ship. Yes, this movie should have been about the Romulans, not about two hours of the writers trying to convince us that this kid is Picard from another life.

 

[DarKush]

Agreed. And not only that, but get rid of the whole clone idea. It was painfully obvious that no one was buying that Shinzon was some kind of alternate version of young Picard if he never had the breaks that Picard had. He's just some annoying over-the-top punk kid who managed a coup with help and a big bad ship. Yes, this movie should have been about the Romulans, not about two hours of the writers trying to convince us that this kid is Picard from another life.

I'm iffy on the clone idea. Though Hardy did the best he probably could, Shinzon should've been played by Patrick Stewart to really make the clone idea work.

I also felt the Romulans should've been the big bad of the films. I liked the Reman design, but I wish the Romulans had gotten to be the big bads of a TOS or TNG film, especially since I saw the Romulans as the go-to recurring villains in TNG. And they could've also brought back Sela and/or Tomalak as well.

 

[Dukhat]

I'm iffy on the clone idea. Though Hardy did the best he probably could, Shinzon should've been played by Patrick Stewart to really make the clone idea work.

But I think the main problem was the idea of Picard being cloned at all. It was just an excuse to have a movie indulging Patrick Stewart. Making him play his own clone would have just exacerbated that indulgence. First and foremost, If you're going to make a movie with Romulans in it, then the movie should be about the damn Romulans!

I liked the Reman design, but I wish the Romulans had gotten to be the big bads of a TOS or TNG film, especially since I saw the Romulans as the go-to recurring villains in TNG. And they could've also brought back Sela and/or Tomalak as well.

I'm glad you liked the Remans. Unfortunately, for me they were nothing more than a plot device, and a bad one at that. Someone decided (probably after smoking too much weed), "Hey, there's like, this other Romulan planet that's never been used before other than on a chart in one old TOS episode, so let's make the inhabitants these creepy vampire dudes with costumes straight out of a Tim Burton Batman movie, but we're not going to actually do anything with them other than having them look scary. Oh, and let's hire Ron Perlman to be the main Reman bad guy, but we're not going to really have him do anything either even though he's an incredibly talented guy. You got any more weed?"

 

[Vger23]

But I think the main problem was the idea of Picard being cloned at all. It was just an excuse to have a movie indulging Patrick Stewart. Making him play his own clone would have just exacerbated that indulgence. First and foremost, If you're going to make a movie with Romulans in it, then the movie should be about the damn Romulans!



I'm glad you liked the Remans. Unfortunately, for me they were nothing more than a plot device, and a bad one at that. Someone decided (probably after smoking too much weed), "Hey, there's like, this other Romulan planet that's never been used before other than on a chart in one old TOS episode, so let's make the inhabitants these creepy vampire dudes with costumes straight out of a Tim Burton Batman movie, but we're not going to actually do anything with them other than having them look scary. Oh, and let's hire Ron Perlman to be the main Reman bad guy, but we're not going to really have him do anything either even though he's an incredibly talented guy. You got any more weed?"

Yeah, but post-TOS, the Romulans were such crappy cookie-cutter boring adversaries that the clone thing probably made great sense at the time.

 

[Dukhat]

Yeah, but post-TOS, the Romulans were such crappy cookie-cutter boring adversaries that the clone thing probably made great sense at the time.

So making the bad guys ugly Nosferatu rejects was a better idea?

 

[fireproof78]

Having the Romulans as the villains would have been great. Except, we didn't get that.

 

[DarKush]

^
And I have to wonder why that is? The Romulans had put time in, they had been in some very good TNG episodes, but if I recall Rick Berman never cared for them. In TOS and especially TNG the Klingons were better fleshed out, but we never really got a deep exploration of Romulan culture. It's like, we'll we need a bad guy, insert the Romulans.

The Romulans did have distinctive ships and uniforms, but they never got much of a distinct culture. To me, they were interchangeable with the Cardassians (at least the early incarnations with the Cardassians). Though the Cardassians had a more unique, intricate design, and they also had distinctive ships, uniforms, and they even had distinct (recent) history due to their occupation of Bajor and even their war with the Federation, which wasn't explored much, but it's there. And I think DS9 went more into developing them, but the Romulans never really got that. DS9 went on to do great work with the Dominion as well, and didn't really 'need' the Romulans. And DS9 continued fleshing out the Klingons. VOY to some extent did as well, and to a lesser extent so did ENT with the Klingons, when the Romulans made far more sense during that time period to feature as bad guys, even if the heroes didn't knowingly interact with them.

I have to wonder since Berman Trek (with the exception of ENT) largely minimized the Vulcans that that took away an interest in exploring the Romulans more. With the Romulans being the dark reflection of the Vulcans, perhaps they lost something if there were no prominent Vulcan characters on TNG or DS9 and Tuvok on VOY, being lost in the Delta Quadrant, removed the exploration of the Vulcan/Romulan duality as well. TNG did replace that to some extent with Worf's enmity toward the Romulans, but the show didn't do much to use Worf's tragic relationship with them as a spring board to explore Romulan history and culture. The major time we got that was in "Unification" with Spock's mission to Romulus. And to a lesser extent in that episode where Geordi and the Romulan soldier are trapped. We got some good insight into the Romulan mindset and also Worf's feelings about them as well.

To me, it was like, okay we need a bad guy here and we already got Romulan ship models, costumes, wigs, and weapons, so just slide them in. Plus the audience knows them and already know they are a formidable adversary so we don't need to create someone new, is how I wonder if why they used them in some of those TNG episodes. If the Ferengi had actually turned out to be seen as legitimate threats it makes me wonder if we would've seen the Romulans as much, or at all, as we did in TNG.

So, if Berman didn't care for the Romulans and there wasn't a lot of 'there' there when it comes to making them stand-out (even from a visual perspective, they still look like Vulcans, despite Berman's attempts to differentiate them), Berman, Braga, and Logan, might have felt that the Romulans weren't interesting enough or threatening enough to be legitimate bad guys. I disagree. Though I liked the Remans and the Son'a for that matter, the Romulans were great villains and deserved more of a spotlight. I remember being thrilled just by seeing even a dead one in GEN and wish they had followed up on that. Though I liked the Son'a, I wish they had gone with an earlier idea to make the main bad guys in INS the Romulans. It would've raised the stakes big time.

 

[Dukhat]

^
And I have to wonder why that is? The Romulans had put time in, they had been in some very good TNG episodes, but if I recall Rick Berman never cared for them. In TOS and especially TNG the Klingons were better fleshed out, but we never really got a deep exploration of Romulan culture. It's like, we'll we need a bad guy, insert the Romulans.

The Romulans did have distinctive ships and uniforms, but they never got much of a distinct culture. To me, they were interchangeable with the Cardassians (at least the early incarnations with the Cardassians). Though the Cardassians had a more unique, intricate design, and they also had distinctive ships, uniforms, and they even had distinct (recent) history due to their occupation of Bajor and even their war with the Federation, which wasn't explored much, but it's there. And I think DS9 went more into developing them, but the Romulans never really got that. DS9 went on to do great work with the Dominion as well, and didn't really 'need' the Romulans. And DS9 continued fleshing out the Klingons. VOY to some extent did as well, and to a lesser extent so did ENT with the Klingons, when the Romulans made far more sense during that time period to feature as bad guys, even if the heroes didn't knowingly interact with them.

I have to wonder since Berman Trek (with the exception of ENT) largely minimized the Vulcans that that took away an interest in exploring the Romulans more. With the Romulans being the dark reflection of the Vulcans, perhaps they lost something if there were no prominent Vulcan characters on TNG or DS9 and Tuvok on VOY, being lost in the Delta Quadrant, removed the exploration of the Vulcan/Romulan duality as well. TNG did replace that to some extent with Worf's enmity toward the Romulans, but the show didn't do much to use Worf's tragic relationship with them as a spring board to explore Romulan history and culture. The major time we got that was in "Unification" with Spock's mission to Romulus. And to a lesser extent in that episode where Geordi and the Romulan soldier are trapped. We got some good insight into the Romulan mindset and also Worf's feelings about them as well.

To me, it was like, okay we need a bad guy here and we already got Romulan ship models, costumes, wigs, and weapons, so just slide them in. Plus the audience knows them and already know they are a formidable adversary so we don't need to create someone new, is how I wonder if why they used them in some of those TNG episodes. If the Ferengi had actually turned out to be seen as legitimate threats it makes me wonder if we would've seen the Romulans as much, or at all, as we did in TNG.

So, if Berman didn't care for the Romulans and there wasn't a lot of 'there' there when it comes to making them stand-out (even from a visual perspective, they still look like Vulcans, despite Berman's attempts to differentiate them), Berman, Braga, and Logan, might have felt that the Romulans weren't interesting enough or threatening enough to be legitimate bad guys. I disagree. Though I liked the Remans and the Son'a for that matter, the Romulans were great villains and deserved more of a spotlight. I remember being thrilled just by seeing even a dead one in GEN and wish they had followed up on that. Though I liked the Son'a, I wish they had gone with an earlier idea to make the main bad guys in INS the Romulans. It would've raised the stakes big time.

Well, Berman was just the executive producer. He didn’t write the script or direct the film. He was just there to sign off on the ones who did. He could have hated the Romulans, but if John Logan had written a stellar story and Stuart Baird had been an exceptional director, Berman would have been just fine with it. “We’re all very pleased..” he would probably say.

But Logan’s story sucked, and Baird’s direction sucked. So Berman’s inevitable response was instead, “I guess the fans didn’t want a movie about Romulans.” Which only shows just how out of touch he was about the whole thing.

 

[Damian]

I've said before, on various threads about this that I felt his ultimate plan just went one or two extra steps that it didn't have to. It was the Romulans who enslaved Shinzon and tortured Shinzon that Shinzon would want to wipe them out, not attack Earth to prove that he's better than Picard, a man who didn't do anything to him and didn't even know he existed.

And not only that, but get rid of the whole clone idea. It was painfully obvious that no one was buying that Shinzon was some kind of alternate version of young Picard if he never had the breaks that Picard had

I think that's one of the themes of the film that sort of gets lost. The film was partly about the whole mirror vs. source thing. That would Picard do what Shinzon did in his shoes. Is it in his DNA, that sort of thing. That was a primary theme of the film I thought, but it didn't get developed real well and it just didn't come across all that well.

I always joke I'm one of the 10 people that liked Nemesis. It had it's faults, I don't deny that, but it had enough for me to enjoy it as a film. I wish it was more Romulan oriented, I wish there was no B4, and I would trim out the whole jeep scene (of course if there was no B4, there'd be no Kolarus scene anyway).

I'd also abandon the whole clone idea. I liked Tom Hardy so I'd keep him and maybe the character of Schinzon, but maybe have him be an outcast Romulan instead who was exiled to Remus, become a leader to the Remans and lead them out of their slavery, take over Romulus and keep the rest about the thalaron device and their threat to the Federation. I'm sure some motivation could be included for his desire to attack the Federation.

 

[suarezguy]

As far as I remember there was a lot of negativity/hostility to the film in the months before it was released, some of the reasons seeming a little petty, some about lack of continuity-that Worf was back in Starfleet without explanation, that B4 would be another (bad) android but Lore would never be mentioned, some that Shinzon as a concept didn't make sense (fit with the Romulans' attitudes and timeline) or at least was an uninteresting character/story (evil bitter clone doesn't sound inspiring), that it would at best try too hard to be TWoK (on top of some sense that all the TNG films had tried too hard to have the next Khan).
But the general sense (*understandably* enhanced by disappointment with Insurrection, Voyager and Enterprise) was that Berman was apathetic/out of ideas and Stewart and Spiner were overly involved with developing the story or demanding scenes so it would yet again center on them so that plus a mediocre villain meant it pretty much couldn't be a good conclusion to TNG as a whole.