Is Nemesis unfairly criticized?

[RAMA]

It's underrated. It's not a great film, and it has a few problems like pacing, and a few continuity errors, which really don't bother me too much, though I flinch a little when B4 makes an appearance and it's not Lore.

It was nice to see a Trek movie that looked more like a "movie" though, we hadn't seen that since STTMP. This was the first Trek movie to fully embrace CGI and there's a more epic feel to it because of that.

It's funny when I hear some fans say it's the worst (middle of the pack is more accurate), when it's easily a million times better than STV (yes a million. possibly more), though I suspect those are old TOS fans or TOS film fans trying to take a shot at an STNG film, rather than a serious estimation of its quality. STV suffers from many very basic filmmaking errors which Nemesis has none of.

RAMA

 

[Smellmet]

It's underrated. It's not a great film, and it has a few problems like pacing, and a few continuity errors, which really don't bother me too much, though I flinch a little when B4 makes an appearance and it's not Lore.

It was nice to see a Trek movie that looked more like a "movie" though, we hadn't seen that since STTMP. This was the first Trek movie to fully embrace CGI and there's a more epic feel to it because of that.

It's funny when I hear some fans say it's the worst (middle of the pack is more accurate), when it's easily a million times better than STV (yes a million. possibly more), though I suspect those are old TOS fans or TOS film fans trying to take a shot at an STNG film, rather than a serious estimation of its quality. STV suffers from many very basic filmmaking errors which Nemesis has none of.

RAMA

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Vger23]

It's underrated. It's not a great film, and it has a few problems like pacing, and a few continuity errors, which really don't bother me too much, though I flinch a little when B4 makes an appearance and it's not Lore.

It was nice to see a Trek movie that looked more like a "movie" though, we hadn't seen that since STTMP. This was the first Trek movie to fully embrace CGI and there's a more epic feel to it because of that.

It's funny when I hear some fans say it's the worst (middle of the pack is more accurate), when it's easily a million times better than STV (yes a million. possibly more), though I suspect those are old TOS fans or TOS film fans trying to take a shot at an STNG film, rather than a serious estimation of its quality. STV suffers from many very basic filmmaking errors which Nemesis has none of.

RAMA

They are both virtually identical: shit movies that nearly everyone hates.

That said, I happen to like both very much, so not sure what that says about me. It's certainly not what you claim here (only wanting TNG Nemesis to suck so that something is worse than TOS Final Frontier). In fact, by the tone of your comment, I'd actually suspect the opposite to be true of you.

The worst is Insurrection, BTW. Not only is that also a shit movie, but unlike NEM and TFF, there is nothing in it that I personally like either. The ultimate in hum-drum non-relevance.

 

[HaventGotALife]

I find Nemesis much more polished than the other three TNG films.
It looks great, it has an interesting plot that serves as a nice capstone to both Picard and Data's lives, it has lots of well acted drama helped by the fact that Hardy is a fantastic actor, it has an excellent score, it has a kickass ramming scene, etc, etc, etc.

Anyway, do you like NEM?
Do you hate it?
Has time changed your opinion of it?

I have thought a lot about Nemesis, in recent years. And my dissatisfaction with the film really stems from Shinzon, and how he is treated in both script, and acting.

The elements are there. Riker and Troi's wedding scene reveals the Picard in "Generations," is no longer tortured by the fact "they'll be no more Picards." "You are my family."

Picard is the hero of Gene Roddenberry's Utopia. Learned, reserved, respectful, talented. He is what humanity can be, at its best. Roddenberry said we would "evolve." But, when faced with the "terrors to freeze your souls," namely, "The Borg," Picard seeks revenge, tries to commit genocide, enjoys murder. Has humanity really evolved? Or, has good leadership, a stable society, peace, allowed men like Picard to exist?

Shinzon is both "the mirror" and the desire of Picard. He longs for family, another Picard. He is Picard's darkness, his nightmare. But, this is wasted because the Scimitar is a predator. Because Shinzon is not "comfortable in the light." Because, by the time he is asking about his human roots, you know Shinzon is dark, very dark, abandoning his purpose to want to touch Deanna's hair.

It doesn't work. I want Picard to trust Shinzon. I want him to slowly unravel the mystery of Shinzon's true character, and intentions, and I want Shinzon conflicted, not sure if he can go through with it, simply because he is human and craving the same connection Jean-Luc, is. And, be disappointed. Shinzon kills Picard unceremoniously halfway through the film because disappointment from his gained father figure, is too much for the younger Picard to handle. The Enterprise crew must stop Shinzon, even through mourning, because all Shinzon has now, is his "Reman brothers."

I want to like Shinzon. And this movie makes him a Bat man villain.

 

[Jeyl]

This was the first Trek movie to fully embrace CGI and there's a more epic feel to it because of that.

RAMA, Star Trek Insurrection was the first Trek film to embrace CGI and it looked like garbage. Nemesis' CGI was ok, but it still doesn't hold a candle to some of the more detailed effects shots of First Contact. That Borg Battle in the opening, however brief it may be, is still one of the best effects moments in the original 10 movies. You have all these Federation ships shooting the Borg Cube with everything they've got but still not managing to stop it's progress to Earth. THAT was epic. Nemesis just gave the bad guy an invisible ship. It's less of an epic battle and more like some player using some cheat code to take advantage of a game.

 

[Vger23]

The FC Borg Battle scene was, IMHO a total yawner. It was like watching a teenager playing a space battle game. No involvement, no emotion, no danger conveyed. I don't think the Enterprise took a single hit. Just a bunch of ships buzzing around a big cube lobbing special effects at each other.

The most emotional part of it was just listening to the battle over the comms chatter . That was way more effective than anything else they showed via visuals.

 

[Jeyl]

I don't think the Enterprise took a single hit.

What are you talking about? She took two hits.

Nemesis could have surpassed that sequence if they had involved more ships the way they were planning to. But instead, they chose to make this a one on one battle for reasons that are way more artificial and uninvolved than First Contact. I mean, how many times have we seen that many active Federation ships in one place in Star Trek before? Especially in the movies! Being the first time I've seen so many ships in one place, it really showed how much was at stake.

In Nemesis, you had this fleet of Federation ships with the explicit intention of stopping Shinzon... and they're all just sitting there waiting for the Enterprise on the other side of that communications blocking nebula. It's like, why would they just stop there? Are they worried they'll make the Romulans angry if they cross into the Neutral Zone? News flash. The Romulan Government is on it's way to destroy Earth, cripple the Federation and freaking invade. I don't think waiting for the most advanced ship that is currently fleeing Romulan space is a good idea.

 

[timtonruben359]

I think like the other two so-so TNG movies (GEN & INS) Nemesis holds up better now than it did at the time. It's still not a great movie but having watched it again recently after more than a decade, it's nowhere as terrible as I remember it. In 2002 when it came out I was so disenfranchised with the quality of Trek at that point it would have taken a masterpiece for me to have enjoyed it.

FC was great because the stakes were so high and Picard was becoming unhinged by the desire for revenge. Nemesis tried to do the same thing, but I was never really interested in Shinzon as a villain and B4 annoyed me. Also it seems as though all the good character moments were cut from the film's final edit and as a result it's two hours of Picard and Data with cameos from the rest of the cast.

To me the real pain of this movie was that it was the last TNG film. They deserved to go out on a higher note.

 

[Vger23]

What are you talking about? She took two hits.

Nemesis could have surpassed that sequence if they had involved more ships the way they were planning to. But instead, they chose to make this a one on one battle for reasons that are way more artificial and uninvolved than First Contact. I mean, how many times have we seen that many active Federation ships in one place in Star Trek before? Especially in the movies! Being the first time I've seen so many ships in one place, it really showed how much was at stake.

In Nemesis, you had this fleet of Federation ships with the explicit intention of stopping Shinzon... and they're all just sitting there waiting for the Enterprise on the other side of that communications blocking nebula. It's like, why would they just stop there? Are they worried they'll make the Romulans angry if they cross into the Neutral Zone? News flash. The Romulan Government is on it's way to destroy Earth, cripple the Federation and freaking invade. I don't think waiting for the most advanced ship that is currently fleeing Romulan space is a good idea.

To each their own. I find the quick exchange in TSFS to have more juice and emotional impact than the busy, uninspired smear of stuff painted on the screen in FC. Again...I guess if it's quantity you are looking for, than sure...let's give FC a medal.

But, for any kind of tension or emotional resonance...no way. Boring, bland, quick, uninspired, and generic. Like literally...nothing happens. It's so dull that it's almost unnoticeable. There's no tension on the bridge, no feeling of risk. Little ships just blow up on the screen with absolutely no sense of loss or drama. The "after the fact" graveyard scene in BOBW or the opening to the pilot of DS9 were FAR more emotional and meaningful.

 

[Vger23]

What are you talking about? She took two hits.

Oh no, two animated special effects hit the shields!!!

They didn't even do the "shake the camera and the actors" thing to bother conveying a sense of jeopardy.

Nope. Dull, dull, dull.

 

[Smellmet]

What are you talking about? She took two hits.

Nemesis could have surpassed that sequence if they had involved more ships the way they were planning to. But instead, they chose to make this a one on one battle for reasons that are way more artificial and uninvolved than First Contact. I mean, how many times have we seen that many active Federation ships in one place in Star Trek before? Especially in the movies! Being the first time I've seen so many ships in one place, it really showed how much was at stake.

In Nemesis, you had this fleet of Federation ships with the explicit intention of stopping Shinzon... and they're all just sitting there waiting for the Enterprise on the other side of that communications blocking nebula. It's like, why would they just stop there? Are they worried they'll make the Romulans angry if they cross into the Neutral Zone? News flash. The Romulan Government is on it's way to destroy Earth, cripple the Federation and freaking invade. I don't think waiting for the most advanced ship that is currently fleeing Romulan space is a good idea.

I was always disappointed with the lack of other federation ships joining the fray, but even then, I think the battle in nemesis kicks ass still, and I enjoy the sequence more than any other trek space battle bar TWOK, reboot films included.

 

[Mage]

It's underrated. It's not a great film, and it has a few problems like pacing, and a few continuity errors, which really don't bother me too much, though I flinch a little when B4 makes an appearance and it's not Lore.

It was nice to see a Trek movie that looked more like a "movie" though, we hadn't seen that since STTMP. This was the first Trek movie to fully embrace CGI and there's a more epic feel to it because of that.

It's funny when I hear some fans say it's the worst (middle of the pack is more accurate), when it's easily a million times better than STV (yes a million. possibly more), though I suspect those are old TOS fans or TOS film fans trying to take a shot at an STNG film, rather than a serious estimation of its quality. STV suffers from many very basic filmmaking errors which Nemesis has none of.

RAMA

I agree with this completely. It's a flawed movie, but it was very well made when it comes to design, costuming, special effects. There are some great nods to TNG, and the movie was just entertaining to me, despite the obvious flaws.

 

[Smellmet]

I agree with this completely. It's a flawed movie, but it was very well made when it comes to design, costuming, special effects. There are some great nods to TNG, and the movie was just entertaining to me, despite the obvious flaws.

I agree also. I always find it an immensely entertaining watch, warts and all. I'd watch it over 5, 7, 8, 9 and maybe even 4 or 6 at a push any day.

 

[Mage]

I agree also. I always find it an immensely entertaining watch, warts and all. I'd watch it over 5, 7, 8, 9 and maybe even 4 or 6 at a push any day.

5, yes. 7, depends on my mood. I actually really liked 9. 8 is the best made movie of the TNG movies, but also the least TNG of them. 6 is actually, together with 1, my favorite TOS movie. And 4..... It's been ages since I've seen it. I think most fans feel personally insulted when I say I don't think it's that good. But I also think TWOK is overrated.

 

[Smellmet]

I think a lot of the flak that gets thrown at nemesis you could throw at most trek movies.

 

[Vger23]

I was always disappointed with the lack of other federation ships joining the fray, but even then, I think the battle in nemesis kicks ass still, and I enjoy the sequence more than any other trek space battle bar TWOK, reboot films included.

Agreed.

Space battle scenes ranked (from my perspective)
1. TWOK
2. NEM
3. TSFS
4. INS
5. TUC
6. FC
7. GEN

 

[Smellmet]

Agreed.

Space battle scenes ranked (from my perspective)
1. TWOK
2. NEM
3. TSFS
4. INS
5. TUC
6. FC
7. GEN

Mostly agree with this list. I'd put FC higher but that's it.

 

[Vger23]

Mostly agree with this list. I'd put FC higher but that's it.

You might be right. There are times I'd swap FC and INS...depending on my mood.

 

[Kor]

NEM is the only Trek movie since TFF that I didn't see in the theater. When I finally got around to watching it on DVD, I was glad I didn't see it in the theater.

Kor

 

[Jeyl]

I think a lot of the flak that gets thrown at nemesis you could throw at most trek movies.

Do any of the previous movies feature a large action set piece that does absolutely nothing to advance the plot like that Dune Buggy chase sequence?