Nor is it a particularly accurate one.
Is Nemesis unfairly criticized?
- Thread starter Shinzon4u
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Nor is it a particularly accurate one.
I thought "Trek is best on TV" was as close to a consensus view as existing among Trek fandom (obviously there are those who disagree, I just thought they were a very tiny minority). A Slate article I read years ago summed it up so perfectly for me, this line has always stuck in my head, about why the Trek philosophy just fits better on TV:
http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/...ies_and_tv_series_which_are_the_best_why.html
Yeah, it is unfairly criticized. I think it's an ok film, middle of the pack, not the travesty some think. Certainly it's better than Insurrection. I think it gets the blame for the end of the TNG movie series but I don't think it killed the franchise... I think it was running out of steam, partly through time and partly through the disappointment of Insurrection, and Nemesis merely failed to save the movie series.
The good: II, III, IV, VI, First Contact
The ok: I, Generations, Nemesis, Kelvin 1, Kelvin 2, Kelvin 3
The bad: V, Insurrection
The good: II, III, IV, VI, First Contact
The ok: I, Generations, Nemesis, Kelvin 1, Kelvin 2, Kelvin 3
The bad: V, Insurrection
In my opinion, nothing in Nemesis makes much sense, the plot is ridiculous, the characters are OOC, and it completely spits on continuity (as in character arcs, not minutiae). The only thing I liked was the effect of the Enterprise crashing. I saw the making-of of that and thought it was super neat.
But Insurrection isn't any better. I'd even argue that it might be worse. The characters are just as OOC, the humour is ridiculously cringe-worthy, the aesop is broken, and the soap-boxing infuriating.
The only next gen movie I like is First Contact.
Oh, and I've got a life-long beef with TWOK just for the reasons @Vger23 mentioned. It has a villain that is nominally smart, but will do the stupidest bullshit because the plot said so. I seriously do not get people's love for that one, or Linkara's Shakespeare comparisons. It ain't that good.
But of course, there's no arguing about personal likes and dislikes. I just happen to be in the group of people who will watch all movies except for Insurrection (the preaching pisses me off something fierce) once in a while. They entertain me, and most of them have something to offer. However, I still make fun of stupid elements in them. I love nuTrek and I still laugh about the underwear commercial scene with Carol Marcus.
But Insurrection isn't any better. I'd even argue that it might be worse. The characters are just as OOC, the humour is ridiculously cringe-worthy, the aesop is broken, and the soap-boxing infuriating.
The only next gen movie I like is First Contact.
Oh, and I've got a life-long beef with TWOK just for the reasons @Vger23 mentioned. It has a villain that is nominally smart, but will do the stupidest bullshit because the plot said so. I seriously do not get people's love for that one, or Linkara's Shakespeare comparisons. It ain't that good.
But of course, there's no arguing about personal likes and dislikes. I just happen to be in the group of people who will watch all movies except for Insurrection (the preaching pisses me off something fierce) once in a while. They entertain me, and most of them have something to offer. However, I still make fun of stupid elements in them. I love nuTrek and I still laugh about the underwear commercial scene with Carol Marcus.
I've loved Nemesis since I saw it on opening day. I really don't understand most of the complaints about it, since (as others have already pointed out) the same complaints could be made about most of the movies. I like the dark and dour tone (also liked those bits in Generations when others complained), the soundtrack is awesome, and the direction is actually quite excellent if you look at as a dispassionate observer.
The battle of the Bassen Rift is the best action sequence we had until the Kelvin films. I still pop Nemesis in just to watch that battle from time to time, or to show off my home theater to someone new. I easily rank Nemesis in my top five Trek films (TUC, TWoK, '09 and TMP would be the others... positions change with mood).
The battle of the Bassen Rift is the best action sequence we had until the Kelvin films. I still pop Nemesis in just to watch that battle from time to time, or to show off my home theater to someone new. I easily rank Nemesis in my top five Trek films (TUC, TWoK, '09 and TMP would be the others... positions change with mood).
You and I are in the minority so it seems...
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Amaris
Guest
I do not like NEM. I don't hate it. After viewing it, and giving it a few weeks to process, once it started falling to the bottom of the list, it never stopped, and time has not changed my opinion of it since. Hell, the only reason it rated so high at first is because it was the first Trek film I had ever seen in a theater.
It currently sits in last place on my Trek movie list. It wasn't in last place, but not due to liking it less or disliking it more. The other movies simply gained favor over time. The Motion Picture, and Insurrection both bumped up one, which dropped NEM to the very bottom. I only watch it if there is absolutely nothing else to watch. Anywhere. On anything.
It had some updated cinematography but it felt way too much like a ripoff of TWOK's style but without actual substance. Right down to bleeping noises on the bridge that were never in previous movies, not to mention the sheer copping of the exchange from TSFS about "absent friends". Gotta admit, even "Into Darkness" (which is a big pastiche of TWOK as well) still has more originality for it with a double double cross and theme of terrorism as opposed to TWOK being a by-the-numbers template.
Hardy had a huge job in presenting a character, Shinzon (aka "failed Picard clone experiment made under the most laughable situation imaginable), with THE most unrealistic background of all time - a slave on a planetoid who could somehow build a very big ship, in total secrecy, that somehow could outclass everything everyone else had, in a way that nobody would notice its construction anywhere at all, that would also not only wipe out the entire Borg collective but put out evenly shaved slices of butter pats on bread when asked. Not buying the premise.
I'll let Red Letter Media have fun discussing how Picard now had to be bald so the audience could make a connection between the characters with things other than brain cells.
The score was decent in spots, especially the ramming scene.
In the theater, the only times the audience reacted were when the Enterprise and Scimitar collided (only because it hadn't been done before and not because of any physics-related implausibility), and when "The Kirk Maneuver!" was stated. The collision looked nice, but that alone doesn't make for a great movie. "Generations" was more memorable as a story and the dogfight with aftermath does more for me, every time. Even if there's an obvious plot hole/gaffe involved.
I wasn't exactly impressed with previous films written by "Nemesis"'s writers and the telltale signs showed. (Amazingly, the same writer had some decent ideas in "Skyfall" despite the usual conveniences and contrivings.) TNG Trek needed new blood by 2002, but the choices didn't come together the way that were needed - and of the big changes, direction and plot, the plot was far less effective.
TNG had already discarded its own continuity by "Generations" so I didn't care too much about "yet another clone" trope, wishing instead that both Bettys were there to remind Quark that neither of them was the clone. Would have helped the movie a lot to have a "Quark" crossover... but who needs to wallow in any fanwank, the story's premise is ludicrous from the start.
GEN and INS felt more like TV-era TNG. FC and NEM, as do some scenes in GEN and INS, feel like a generic action movie with TNG characters thrust in. Especially John McPicard coming out of nowhere. Which is not to say making TNG tighter and more action-based isn't bad but they needed new writers that could also pull a half-decent storyline.
I think every criticism of Nemesis is totally fair. Not a film I think I'll ever feel the need to revisit. Once is enough.
Perhaps this is an aside but I remember Patrick Stewart on a talk show in which the preview of the desert scene was presented, and though he was there in an attempt to sell the film, there was a cringe moment from him before he caught himself and talked about the fun of making and watching the film. For me, there are a number of somewhat glaring flaws in the film but overall, I also enjoyed the film. I think that the stiffness of Shinzon was far too Dr. Evil (and too close to the Austin Powers films) to be taken seriously--this actually got laughs at the theater but for its weaknesses, the film isn't nearly as bad as it sometimes gets accused of.
That last part was definitely a live factor..... I was working at a cinema at the time Nemesis came out, and when I solicited feedback about it from 'regular patrons' after the movie was over, far and away the most regular comment I got were comments about Dr Evil/Mini Me. Which wouldn't necessarily be a problem if Tom Hardy's performance weren't seemingly pitched at exactly that kind of arch level..... but the "he is a clone of me" angle doesn't help, either. The nuances just aren't there.
For what it's worth, I think Hardy was probably just inexperienced as a screen actor and was trying to find something to latch on to. I suspect he'd do a better job these days, heck, he has played villains in other things since and done a much better job.
For me, Nemesis commits the worst sin a piece of entertainment can... it's boring. I was never made to care by the filmmakers in anything that was happening on screen. I can get behind bad movies. One of my personal guilty pleasures is a bad 80's movie called Spaced Invaders. I can't tell you why, but green headed aliens doing Jack Nicholson and Cary Grant impressions just makes me giggle. But Nemesis just left me completely cold.
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Amaris
Guest
"Who died and left you in charge?!?"Spaced Invaders is awesome!
"They blew up our new off-ramp!"
"Captain Bipto!"
Funny how Nemesis is criticized for the same elements that the first two JJ films are praised for - giant OP black-colored villain ships, gratuitous action sequences, TWOK callbacks - all that's different are the characters, direction and production values.
I'll never get fans.
I'll never get fans.
1. That's where you're wrong right there. There are plenty of other differences.
2. Rather than getting universally praised, nuTrek gets criticized plenty for the things you mentioned, "giant OP black-colored villain ships, gratuitous action sequences, TWOK callbacks." I'm really not sure how you could miss that.
In any case, your reductive approach has drastically oversimplified the situation.
Funny how Nemesis is criticized for the same elements that the first two JJ films are praised for - giant OP black-colored villain ships, gratuitous action sequences, TWOK callbacks - all that's different are the characters, direction and production values.
I'll never get fans.
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