lol, yes. Although I could've definitely done without dune buggie business I have to say. .
Is Nemesis unfairly criticized?
- Thread starter Shinzon4u
- Start date
I thought that the Argo shuttle would have a hover vehicle, like Star Wars landspeeder or speederbikes, in the 24th century.
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Not to derail my own thread, but ESB did have the AT AT's, which were ridiculous considering that like you said, the SW universe has hover tech.
My opinion of the TNG films is pretty low, much as I loved the show.
Nemesis certainly had some serious issues, but it's still my favourite of the four.
I saw Nemesis in the theaters, thought it was OK but not great, and then spent the ensuing time thinking the hate for it was overblown.
Then I rewatched it a few months back and was surprised to find my reaction was "holy hell, this movie really is awful!"
Many of the problems have been mentioned already. Some other things that particularly rubbed me the wrong way was how gross the Troi material was -- her powers were used to violate her many times, but this one is just more off-putting somehow, it feels more exploitative. DS9 had brought Worf's character to such a great place in the finale, and I hate how that was undone for no reason -- it would have been quite easy to just have him on the ship for the wedding and refer to him as an Ambassador. Even setting aside concerns of franchise continuity, which I don't think should necessarily be paramount, I think that would actually have been better for this film... works with the theme of the characters finally moving on.
It had lost that ensemble feel -- all the movies focus on Picard and Data above the others, but the first three also maintained the family feeling of the crew. The other characters were decisively supporting, but they were respected, and all almost always got some nice moments. I don't think Nemesis did that, it really did just focus on Picard and Data, and then it fumbled both stories. B4 undermines Data's sacrifice, and there's some many character moments for Picard that felt false to me.
It depresses me that it's the final film for that crew. This and TATV, two really ignoble end points for that great era of Trek.
Then I rewatched it a few months back and was surprised to find my reaction was "holy hell, this movie really is awful!"
Many of the problems have been mentioned already. Some other things that particularly rubbed me the wrong way was how gross the Troi material was -- her powers were used to violate her many times, but this one is just more off-putting somehow, it feels more exploitative. DS9 had brought Worf's character to such a great place in the finale, and I hate how that was undone for no reason -- it would have been quite easy to just have him on the ship for the wedding and refer to him as an Ambassador. Even setting aside concerns of franchise continuity, which I don't think should necessarily be paramount, I think that would actually have been better for this film... works with the theme of the characters finally moving on.
It had lost that ensemble feel -- all the movies focus on Picard and Data above the others, but the first three also maintained the family feeling of the crew. The other characters were decisively supporting, but they were respected, and all almost always got some nice moments. I don't think Nemesis did that, it really did just focus on Picard and Data, and then it fumbled both stories. B4 undermines Data's sacrifice, and there's some many character moments for Picard that felt false to me.
It depresses me that it's the final film for that crew. This and TATV, two really ignoble end points for that great era of Trek.
I really enjoyed Nemesis. It wasn't a masterpiece, but I remember really having fun when I originally saw it on VHS. I was surprised to come online and find out almost everyone hated it.
I never thought of it as the "send off" for TNG. In part because I didn't know whether they do another -- even if it was in twenty years time or something like that. In part, because my mind hasn't them in chronological order for reasons peculiar to my own little brain.In part because I think of AGT/Generations as the "TNG" send off, with all due respect to the other TNG films, all of which I rather liked.
It's not just a case of the momentum being lost, but the thrill being gone. Both DS9 and VOY had shed viewers throughout their runs, and ENT was losing them at an alarming pace, even for a 6th-place TV network. The box office numbers were also in a slide -- GEN: $75.6M domestic / $42.4M international; FC: $92M/$54M; INS: $72.1/$42.4; NEM: $43.2/$24
That's a fair point you raise about the competition -- not just from LOTR: Two Towers, which opened the following weekend, but also from Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets and Die Another Day, both of which were still in theaters when NEM opened. Neither FC nor INS faced serious competition from another "genre film" (even loosely defined); GEN's closest competition was Stargate, which was already in its fourth weekend. But this is where franchise fatigue comes into play -- people were psyched about GEN (Kirk meets Picard!) and FC (Borg on the big screen!), but by the time NEM rolled around, only the faithful went to the theater.
Nemesis would've worked better if they'd actually progressed the characters (and the universe) before the start of the movie, it may have helped with just how stilted the film felt. Have Riker and Troi married and already onboard the Titan, Data serving as Picard's new Number One, Worf still in post as ambassador to the Klingon Empire, etc. Then have two plots, one mystery the Titan is assigned too, whilst the Enterprise is sent to a planet for the historic new peace accords that are being signed between the Federation and the Romulans (Worf being there in a diplomatic role). The venue is attacked by Shinzon and the Enterprise is ordered to hunt down the culprit. Eventually, the plot sees both Starfleet ships on the same path and uniting (along with Donatra's warship) to put an end to Shinzon's diabolical plan to cause war between the two great powers, leading to their ultimate destabilisation and defeat.
Elements, such as Worf's position, could be outlined in a few lines of dialogue, whilst the Riker/Troi relationship was seen to be back on track at the end of Insurrection and wouldn't be huge leap to make (it's not like the wedding scene was pure cinematic gold and couldn't be cut), plus Riker finally gets his forth pip. Shinzon could still be the failed clone of Picard, but could also be just a Romulan, Reman or a hybrid of the two (a blending that could be despised on Romulus), maybe even an entirely different species, someone who has a plan to seek revenge against both sides and not just humans (for no explained reason). Granted, there may be elements that hark back to TUC but would that be such a terrible thing? It would be a film about bringing peace, through all the hardships and evils that are out there trying to rip it apart, showing the two old enemies of Trek finally coming together.
Elements, such as Worf's position, could be outlined in a few lines of dialogue, whilst the Riker/Troi relationship was seen to be back on track at the end of Insurrection and wouldn't be huge leap to make (it's not like the wedding scene was pure cinematic gold and couldn't be cut), plus Riker finally gets his forth pip. Shinzon could still be the failed clone of Picard, but could also be just a Romulan, Reman or a hybrid of the two (a blending that could be despised on Romulus), maybe even an entirely different species, someone who has a plan to seek revenge against both sides and not just humans (for no explained reason). Granted, there may be elements that hark back to TUC but would that be such a terrible thing? It would be a film about bringing peace, through all the hardships and evils that are out there trying to rip it apart, showing the two old enemies of Trek finally coming together.
That ... isn't exactly a high bar to meet.
In any event, Nemesis is People's Exhibit A of why you don't let fans write the movies. John Logan did have encyclopedic knowledge of every episode, he's a turbonerd -- that's why Berman and Spiner kept on saying that fans should be excited about Nemesis, because "one of them" had written the script. And if you read the script, it's filled with references to TNG episodes ("so and so happens, just like in the episode where Data discovers masturbation"). And even the finished product itself feels like bad fan-fiction: Giant fuck-off ship with eleventy billion weapons? Check. Captain walking around the ship giving a dour monologue in preparation for battle (just like in Best of Both Worlds!)? Check. Kill off a character just because? Check. Ham-fisted references to past episodes? Check. People complain about Into Darkness ripping off Wrath of Khan (despite it flipping one scene and that's that), but in many respects Nemesis is just shamelessly aping Khan, down to the science officer sacrificing himself to save the ship from a ticking-clock doomsday device.
Unfortunately, everyone involved was too busy getting high on their own farts to realize, "Wait a minute ... this guy gave us a complete piece of shit."
Excellent points. All that being so...it is still more enjoyable than half the TNG movies and about half of the TNG series. And since I'm a fan of both mediums of TNG...that means I think it's unfairly criticized.
Yes, it's easy to see that they were running the franchise into the ground at that point. I don't think "Quality Over Quantity" was one of Berman's mottos, given the way they relentlessly cranked out all of the series. And when Nemesis came along, unfortunately it seemed to be a case of "too little, too late".
Excellent Saturday Night Live "Celebrity Jeopardy" reference btw. Well done!
Essentially every film did a story about Picard and a story about Data. Riker can't really be ignored because he's the first officer, but he has little development besides his marriage to Troi (though Frakes obviously gets directing work). Troi likewise does little of importance. Geordi gets a fair amount of screentime, albeit mostly for functional purposes rather than character-driven. Worf mostly exists to complete the cast and do the occasional comic relief. As for Beverley, she might as well have not turned up. All she really has is exposition and a gag about breasts.
Even Chakotay thought of that!
For me.....and I am probably going to take a LOT of vitriol for this, but for me, the medium that best suited Star Trek (until the Chris Pine era ,and that was birthday cake fun fluff!) was television. For me, the films were a tedious slog, all of them. UNTIL Nemesis. I was a Tom Hardy fan before I knew WTF Tom Hardy was. I LOVED that movie, and I NEVER pass up an opportunity to see it when it comes on telly. All the rest...well, I last about 45 mins. I've seen 45 mins each of probably all the rest of the films and I'm done. So yeah, that makes me the worst Star Trek fan of all time......but hear me out on this.....the whole Trek vs Wars thing? For me....Trek is best served on television. The other is best served on film because the story is so thin it can only last for two hours. And I love each equally in their deserved medium.
"Trek is best on TV" is not a particularly new opinion.
SW is deliberately anachronistic just for style. Like I doubt riding dewbacks is about getting from point A to B quickly and efficiently, but it makes for a strikingly "exotic" look.
I never thought of that before, but it's a great suggestion. It would have also allowed the film to rationalize the relatively long gap between Insurrection and Nemesis and given the audience more of a reason to "catch up" sort of like a family reunion. Of course, FF too far and you wind up in All Good Things territory.
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Listen, this is how it should've been done.
Change of government on Romulus. Although the actual government is unknown, it's got outwardly democratic features and the "foreign minister" (or whatever) is a known pro-Fed guy and puts out peace feelers. Requests Picard personally. A bit odd that -- but there you go.
Invaluable opportunity for peace says the newly minted Ambassador Picard as he recalls events 80 years earlier in TUC. Big risk but peace is a bigger prize.
Romulans pretend they are a bit jittery -- they don't want big capital ships anywhere. So they request that Picard arrive in a smaller ship at a neutral planet whilst the mysterious Shinzon arrives on a scout. The Scimitar is under cloak of course ready to spearhead an invasion but noone is any the wiser.
That smaller ship is the medical ship that Captain Crusher has (shades of AGT).. You might have Ambassador Worf there as well. The medical ship is an underarmed joke compared to the Scimitar and could be destroyed at a look. But the little ship is a fast, hot rod of a ship that has to race to medical emergencies wherever it arises, so, surprisingly, it can out-pace the Scimitar.
Meanwhile the Enterprise under Captain Riker is just at the neutral zone ready to respond.
Then after the Picard-Shinzon meetings, you contrive it that the Scimitar is discovered and Riker and maybe Data helps save the day yada-yada
See that? If only I was in charge I would've done right little beaut of a film and no doubt they'd still be poppin' out TNG films till this very day, eh?.
Change of government on Romulus. Although the actual government is unknown, it's got outwardly democratic features and the "foreign minister" (or whatever) is a known pro-Fed guy and puts out peace feelers. Requests Picard personally. A bit odd that -- but there you go.
Invaluable opportunity for peace says the newly minted Ambassador Picard as he recalls events 80 years earlier in TUC. Big risk but peace is a bigger prize.
Romulans pretend they are a bit jittery -- they don't want big capital ships anywhere. So they request that Picard arrive in a smaller ship at a neutral planet whilst the mysterious Shinzon arrives on a scout. The Scimitar is under cloak of course ready to spearhead an invasion but noone is any the wiser.
That smaller ship is the medical ship that Captain Crusher has (shades of AGT).. You might have Ambassador Worf there as well. The medical ship is an underarmed joke compared to the Scimitar and could be destroyed at a look. But the little ship is a fast, hot rod of a ship that has to race to medical emergencies wherever it arises, so, surprisingly, it can out-pace the Scimitar.
Meanwhile the Enterprise under Captain Riker is just at the neutral zone ready to respond.
Then after the Picard-Shinzon meetings, you contrive it that the Scimitar is discovered and Riker and maybe Data helps save the day yada-yada
See that? If only I was in charge I would've done right little beaut of a film and no doubt they'd still be poppin' out TNG films till this very day, eh?.
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