Is my middle-aged friend wrong to propose to a teenager?

[CaptJimboJones]

I don't have a problem with them dating, screwing around, having fun. But I do have an issue with them getting married. Not because of the age gap, but because I just don't think any 18-year-old is mature enough to make that kind of life-changing decision.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Something can have zero moral questionablness but still be stupid. It can be ethically fine but still be stupid.

The fact that the girl in the OP's story is of legal age doesn't mean there's not a whole lot of potential here to be stupid. My main point is that it is up to the older person in the relationship to go about it with the least amount of stupid possible. Getting engaged to prove something is stupid. Being very much in love doesn't make it any less so.

It is true that stupidity is not eliminated by age, and any couple of any age can be stupid. Like I said, if they were in love, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

But it matters to them.

And really it does come down to there not being ANYTHING that can improve people's opinions of this relationship except time. If they really love each other they will be willing to invest the time and wait for the objections to fall away. I say this as a person who was in a 5 year long distant relationship (across the ocean). There were some people who objected to my relationship for whom time was the only thing that proved it to them as being worthy.

Keeping in mind, though, that you don't have to prove anything to them at all. It is your discretion to do so, but it's not required.

Not required by the universe, yes of course. But the girl wants her parents approval, that was made quite clear by the OP. Everything I've said has been a response to their stated dilemma which is the flack they are getting from their parents and others.

Saying "if they are in love it doesn't matter what anyone thinks" is.. well, ridiculous. They live in a world of family, friends and work and they want this relationship to fit into that world, not to say fuck you we'll do what we want.

If I was the man I would be very worried about my job and what kind of reaction I will be getting from my colleagues since he's a teacher. If he doesn't move in with her and doesn't marry her until she's 20 he might get away with it. Otherwise he's pretty much marked himself as a teacher suspiciously attracted to teenagers. If I had a teenager in his class and heard he had married an 18 year old I would be completely freaked out and the school would be in a position of justifying this.

Since they care about their families, friends and job then clearly "it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks" is not the case.

 

[Amaris]

But it matters to them.

I can understand why it would matter to them, but sometimes you just can't get everything you want. Allowing outside influence like that can destroy the first steps of a marriage. If they love one another, they're just going to have to ignore that outside influence, no matter how much it hurts.

Not required by the universe, yes of course. But the girl wants her parents approval, that was made quite clear by the OP. Everything I've said has been a response to their stated dilemma which is the flack they are getting from their parents and others.

Saying "if they are in love it doesn't matter what anyone thinks" is.. well, ridiculous. They live in a world of family, friends and work and they want this relationship to fit into that world, not to say fuck you we'll do what we want.

Indeed, and if their family doesn't support them, let them go. If their friends don't support them, let them go. If their place of employment doesn't accept them, leave. It sounds cut and dried, though I realize the massive implications it would have on their lives, but it just seems such a shame that people whom the marriage doesn't harm, can be so devastating to that couple.

If I was the man I would be very worried about my job and what kind of reaction I will be getting from my colleagues since he's a teacher. If he doesn't move in with her and doesn't marry her until she's 20 he might get away with it. Otherwise he's pretty much marked himself as a teacher suspiciously attracted to teenagers. If I had a teenager in his class and heard he had married an 18 year old I would be completely freaked out and the school would be in a position of justifying this.

Since they care about their families, friends and job then clearly "it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks" is not the case.

Of course they care about their family, friends, and jobs. It's just sad they apparently have to choose. They shouldn't have to choose. It shouldn't matter. They have a right to be together if they so choose, and if a family member, a friend, or an employer cannot see that and actually tries to intervene, then what a terrible way to treat people these aforementioned groups claim to "love".

 

[Spot's Meow]

I wouldn't be so sure about this part. Getting engaged likely will not force the parents to believe that this is a truly serious relationship; at best, it won't change anything about their opinion. At worst, it will actually make them feel even more strongly that this ISN'T a serious relationship. They will likely believe that this impulsive decision to get engaged is just further proof of how their daughter is not mature enough to handle this relationship. So, I believe that the engagement would have the exact opposite effect than what the couple is intending.

On the surface, your assumption that it will force the parents to take the relationship more seriously seems logical; however, you must take into account that a parent's love is not based on logic at all. They will find ways through and around the logic to reinforce their gut feelings that this is inappropriate and a mistake.

And of course the proposal was her idea - when you were 18, didn't you dream about some mature, attractive man coming along and sweeping you off your feet? You'd get married and play house and everything would be perfect. Okay, so if you are a male that image might have been somewhat different, but I can guarantee that a lot of teenage girls have that exact fantasy. But that's exactly what it is - a fantasy. But when you are young, you buy into the idea that "love conquers all" and even get a kick out of acting out plots straight from Romeo and Juliet. It makes sense at the time ("This person means everything to me, how could it be wrong? We need to get married and start our perfect life together right away!"). Your early twenties serve to knock you into reality and the realization that relationships are hard work and that the right decision isn't always based on your feelings in the moment.

This engagement seems more like a 'feeling in the moment' reaction, rather than one based on having a strong and lasting relationship.

I would say your assessment of the proposal is fair. However, I think it's not necessarily immature to believe in the power of romantic love. Hell I'm in my 30s and I still belive it. Maybe, that means I'm a bit hopeless but cynicism even when it lacks bitterness is not equivilant to wisdom.

Edit:
Spot's Meow, having re-read your post I think what you say is very well intentioned. I also think much of what you say is likely to be at play. However, I hold firm regarding romantic love. To view it with so much scepticism is a bit depressing and I say this in response to doubleohfive as well.

I never said that I don't believe in romantic love. I've been in a wonderful and loving relationship for about seven years now, so I very much believe in it. But it's not the same kind of infatuated idealistic love that you believe exists as a teenager, where you think that any of those silly little issues like money or your parents disapproving will just melt away because your love is so strong.

When you are sheltered by your parents and don't have to worry about putting a roof over your own head, or working long hours without enough sleep and then having to come home to do the dishes and pay bills and cook dinner for your partner and all of that fun stuff called the real world, you believe that love is all you need and will solve all of your problems. But then you move out of your parents house and start your own life and realize that the daily grind of life makes relationships hard work. Romance still exists, but it is a more realistic and down to earth version of it.

It also doesn't have the urgency that it once did. When you're young you feel in such a rush to attain that fairy tale life, you will ignore big red flags to get there. You just feel like you have to get married right away, and show everyone how serious and amazing your relationship is. Now that I'm older I don't feel that urgency anymore, I would rather let things develop in their own time instead of pushing ahead to prove a point.

So I don't think the dichotomy is between romantic love or cynical love, I think it is more between infatuated love or realistic romance.

 

[Gaith]

But hey, we have a very simple rule. The women you're allowed to date without being automatically creepy need to be half your age plus 7 years. Nice and simple. 35 / 2 + 7 = 24.5... I'm a generous sort, so I'll chop off the 0.5 and call it 24. 18? Way down in the creep zone.

I think there's lots of wisdom in the Half Your Age Plus Seven Rule. Heck, it even comes in graph form.

And even if she never went to his school, this sounds like a potential disaster for his teaching career.

 

[wissaboo]

But it matters to them.

I can understand why it would matter to them, but sometimes you just can't get everything you want. Allowing outside influence like that can destroy the first steps of a marriage. If they love one another, they're just going to have to ignore that outside influence, no matter how much it hurts.

Not required by the universe, yes of course. But the girl wants her parents approval, that was made quite clear by the OP. Everything I've said has been a response to their stated dilemma which is the flack they are getting from their parents and others.

Saying "if they are in love it doesn't matter what anyone thinks" is.. well, ridiculous. They live in a world of family, friends and work and they want this relationship to fit into that world, not to say fuck you we'll do what we want.

Indeed, and if their family doesn't support them, let them go. If their friends don't support them, let them go. If their place of employment doesn't accept them, leave. It sounds cut and dried, though I realize the massive implications it would have on their lives, but it just seems such a shame that people whom the marriage doesn't harm, can be so devastating to that couple.

If I was the man I would be very worried about my job and what kind of reaction I will be getting from my colleagues since he's a teacher. If he doesn't move in with her and doesn't marry her until she's 20 he might get away with it. Otherwise he's pretty much marked himself as a teacher suspiciously attracted to teenagers. If I had a teenager in his class and heard he had married an 18 year old I would be completely freaked out and the school would be in a position of justifying this.

Since they care about their families, friends and job then clearly "it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks" is not the case.

Of course they care about their family, friends, and jobs. It's just sad they apparently have to choose. They shouldn't have to choose. It shouldn't matter. They have a right to be together if they so choose, and if a family member, a friend, or an employer cannot see that and actually tries to intervene, then what a terrible way to treat people these aforementioned groups claim to "love".

they don't have to cut off their family, all they have to do is wait it out a few years. Since she is 18 now and they didn't start their relationship till she was 18 they obviously havn't been together very long. What's the rush?

 

[Amaris]

they don't have to cut off their family, all they have to do is wait it out a few years. Since she is 18 now and they didn't start their relationship till she was 18 they obviously havn't been together very long. What's the rush?

Then again, if they're happy together, and have planned their futures together, why should they have to wait? She's an adult, he's an adult.

 

[Frontier]

This is a bit of a Kobayashi Maru, now isn't it?

You go against your friend, you stand to lose him. You don't follow the crowd and speak out against it, you stand to lose potentially more there.

One thing I can say...

The more you tell an 18 year old not to do something, or it's bad for them, or they're too young, or whatever else?

The more they'll want to do such a thing.

I'd stay out of it, much as you can.

 

[wissaboo]

they don't have to cut off their family, all they have to do is wait it out a few years. Since she is 18 now and they didn't start their relationship till she was 18 they obviously havn't been together very long. What's the rush?

Then again, if they're happy together, and have planned their futures together, why should they have to wait? She's an adult, he's an adult.

the op indicated they were getting engaged not because they were in love and wanted to get married, but to prove to people there relationship is legitimate.

 

[Amaris]

they don't have to cut off their family, all they have to do is wait it out a few years. Since she is 18 now and they didn't start their relationship till she was 18 they obviously havn't been together very long. What's the rush?

Then again, if they're happy together, and have planned their futures together, why should they have to wait? She's an adult, he's an adult.

the op indicated they were getting engaged not because they were in love and wanted to get married, but to prove to people there relationship is legitimate.

Still:

However, from what I have seen, these two truly love each other. To me there is no sign of anything sinister - past or present. He cares deeply for her welfare and they both insist that there was no sexual relationship before she was an adult.

So, what's the problem? They're apparently in love with each other, and if they want to prove that love is real and genuine by joining in a committed relationship, it's no one else's business but their own.

 

[wissaboo]

the problem is they want people to accept it. Getting married or engaged prematurely will not do that. It may also put him in a difficult position at work. Perhaps even jeprodize his job. Are they going to live on love then?

 

[Amaris]

the problem is they want people to accept it. Getting married or engaged prematurely will not do that. It may also put him in a difficult position at work. Perhaps even jeprodize his job. Are they going to live on love then?

They're just going to have to accept that there are people who are obstinate and will refuse to acknowledge the love of others because of some reason or another. Of course, since the people with the hangups are the people closest to them, and possibly his place of employment, they'll likely have to cater to the will of said mob or lose everything, and while I'd rather see two people in love tell those "concerned" family members, "friends", and employers to fuck off, as it's none of their business interfering between the marriage of two adults, that's unlikely because people still need to pay the bills.

 

[Mr Awe]

the problem is they want people to accept it. Getting married or engaged prematurely will not do that. It may also put him in a difficult position at work. Perhaps even jeprodize his job. Are they going to live on love then?

They're just going to have to accept that there are people who are obstinate and will refuse to acknowledge the love of others because of some reason or another. Of course, since the people with the hangups are the people closest to them, and possibly his place of employment, they'll likely have to cater to the will of said mob or lose everything, and while I'd rather see two people in love tell those "concerned" family members, "friends", and employers to fuck off, as it's none of their business interfering between the marriage of two adults, that's unlikely because people still need to pay the bills.

J, ultimately, I think you're correct. However, there is something to be said for trying to smooth the road. No point making it bumpier for themselves than necessary. There's probably a middle ground where they remain as a couple, they just don't showboat it. And, they certainly don't get engaged so soon!

But, if push comes to shove, and people are against them no matter what, yeah, they'll just have to live their lives and accept the problems that come with it.

Mr Awe

 

[horatio83]

the problem is they want people to accept it. Getting married or engaged prematurely will not do that. It may also put him in a difficult position at work. Perhaps even jeprodize his job. Are they going to live on love then?

What the hell, they are adult people. If other people have a problem with that they might wanna ask themselves whether marrying and getting kids with 40 and getting your first heart attack when your kids are out of college is more or less mature than getting engaged with 18.
If we consider people who are 18 to be in some kind of immature adolescence we do not have to be surprised if they behave like this.

 

[bryce]

I have a friend who got married at *16* to her *25* year-old boyfriend. I think she was even pregnant at the time. (She needed her mom's signature to marry, but at the time the father had recently died, and mom I think was overwhelmed - but also very pissed.)

Now, that kind of relationships (older guy, younger girl...pregnancy) happens a LOT in that part of the country, and usually ends *badly*. As the father of a soon-to-be 17 year-old, I be a bit concerned too. (Though it's not like my oldest daughter isn't having sex with her bf anyway...) But in my friend's case, it's now almost 30 years and 4 kids and 3 grandchildren later - and she's still married to him and insists that at 16 she herself was mature enough to handle marriage and kids, and is happy to this day that she did it. (She also has a job and is a pretty well respected member of her community...often holding the whole damn town together. Though small town, some people STILL talk.) Now, most 16 or even 18 year-old's, I say *aren't* anywhere near ready for marriage. (Mine I'm sure isn't...) - but I have met some 16 year-old's who are far more matured than many 20+ or 30+ year-old's who get into bad marriages, have kids, and it all ends in disaster.

I don't know your friends...I don't know what they are like (maturity and lever-headedness wise) - and the odds aren't stacked in their favor. But who knows, maybe this girl is mature enough to know what she is doing. Only time will tell.

But basically, she's an adult legally. So she's gonna have to be the one to make her own decisions now...good or bad...and live with them. How "creepy" it is or isn't to other people makes no damn difference under the law.

And funny, if this girl was 21 or 22, would it still be quite the issue? Probably not. But I don't think she'd be a whole lot more older and wiser if she was a year or two older.

(Btw, my friend's mom - STILL pissed. Lol. And all it's gotten her...is a daughter who can't often stand to be in the same room with the b*tch. It didn't stop the marriage...and had she not just given up and signed off on it, it would have still happened just 20-some months later. You can not like what choices your kids make...but be too pushy about it, and you'll just drive them off ANYWAY - often in the very direction that you DON'T want them to go in...)

 

[Amaris]

the problem is they want people to accept it. Getting married or engaged prematurely will not do that. It may also put him in a difficult position at work. Perhaps even jeprodize his job. Are they going to live on love then?

They're just going to have to accept that there are people who are obstinate and will refuse to acknowledge the love of others because of some reason or another. Of course, since the people with the hangups are the people closest to them, and possibly his place of employment, they'll likely have to cater to the will of said mob or lose everything, and while I'd rather see two people in love tell those "concerned" family members, "friends", and employers to fuck off, as it's none of their business interfering between the marriage of two adults, that's unlikely because people still need to pay the bills.

J, ultimately, I think you're correct. However, there is something to be said for trying to smooth the road. No point making it bumpier for themselves than necessary. There's probably a middle ground where they remain as a couple, they just don't showboat it. And, they certainly don't get engaged so soon!

But, if push comes to shove, and people are against them no matter what, yeah, they'll just have to live their lives and accept the problems that come with it.

Mr Awe

You're right, and I know, it's just I get angry when someone tries to control the life of another, who is harming no one or themselves, because they don't like the way they're living. I guess I just feel that there's not enough love in the world, that we're too imbued with cynicism and discontent. The world can be a terribly lonely, busy, heady, distracting place, and when people find one another through all of that, and they love one another, I can't help but become a bit protective over it. I can't help it, I'm an old romantic, I do believe in love at first sight, I do believe that the love between people can be powerful enough to overcome the cynicism and bitterness that exists in the world, and I do believe that the heart is the most powerful and vital part of humanity. Naive? Maybe, but I'd rather be naive than bitter and hateful (not saying people here are being as such).

You're right, though, that smoothing the road is the best course of action, whenever possible, and whenever it leads to a better and more stable future.

 

[Kestra]

This thread has gotten slightly ridiculous.

J., I know you love love (and I do too) but you can't take something so abstract and put it up on this pedestal as this perfect, amazing thing. Yes, love can be beautiful and amazing, it can take away loneliness and make someone's small corner of the world a bit better.

But it can also cause no end of agony. I'm not just talking about heartbreak here. I'm talking about enabling control over others, poor decision making, lack of focus, etc. It can cause that same bitterness and cynicism in spades. If you want to look at it from the point of "these are two people who are within their rights to love each other," that's one thing. But it's not always a positive thing. You can believe in their right to be in love or be in a relationship while also thinking that it's a stupid thing to do in this particular situation. That's not necessarily a wrong view to take.

 

[Yoda]

I don't know if "love at first sight" is the best idea to bring up J, considering the creepsicle first met her when she was 10.

 

[Amaris]

This thread has gotten slightly ridiculous.

J., I know you love love (and I do too) but you can't take something so abstract and put it up on this pedestal as this perfect, amazing thing. Yes, love can be beautiful and amazing, it can take away loneliness and make someone's small corner of the world a bit better.

But it can also cause no end of agony. I'm not just talking about heartbreak here. I'm talking about enabling control over others, poor decision making, lack of focus, etc. It can cause that same bitterness and cynicism in spades. If you want to look at it from the point of "these are two people who are within their rights to love each other," that's one thing. But it's not always a positive thing. You can believe in their right to be in love or be in a relationship while also thinking that it's a stupid thing to do in this particular situation. That's not necessarily a wrong view to take.

I understand that, and agree. After all, love may be blind, but it can blind us to realities we don't want to face. I have no problem with people disagreeing with the relationship, I just hate the idea that it can cost him his job, because of who he loves. They're both adults, and to me, it's just not reasonable to lose employment over one's choice of partners (as long as they are adults and entering into the relationship willingly, of course).

I don't know if "love at first sight" is the best idea to bring up J, considering the creepsicle first met her when she was 10.

Well... yeah, point taken.

I just mean in general, though, about love at first sight. If you're (general you) looking at ten year old girls as potential mates, and you're 18+, there's some real problems that may be lying beneath the surface that you should take care of first.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

You're right, though, that smoothing the road is the best course of action, whenever possible, and whenever it leads to a better and more stable future.

Yes because she also loves her parents.

There is more love to consider than romantic love and romantic love does not always triumph over other kinds of love. Many parents would choose their love of their children over romantic love for instance, if it came down to a choice. Romantic love is not some be all end all.

There is no reason to view it as an all or nothing dilemma. They can pursue their relationship while doing their best to maintain their relationships with the other people in their lives. It's not like the parents said, "leave him or we will never speak to you again" which is the way some responses in this thread sound like.

It's not attacking love to counsel being sensible.