Is my middle-aged friend wrong to propose to a teenager?

[Jefferies]

If he's already having sex with her, why the rush to marriage?

To be honest I have no idea if this is the case. The parents seem to think so. But its not like she is sleeping at his place all the time, in fact she rarely dares to. At any rate it doesn't seem to be the main motivator for the relationship if that's what you are thinking.

 

[Mr Awe]

Jefferies, after reading more, you should pay heed to my sage advice.

Support your friend for now if you honestly don't think there has been anything inappropriate.

However, go in with your eyes open and be the first one to cry "foul!" if you see anything alarming.

That gives you the best of both worlds. Supporting a friend as well as being in a position to keep an eye on the well-being of the girl.

Mr Awe

 

[wissaboo]

So far, thanks everyone for your genuine and measured advice. It's all been really helpful and has made me consider things I hadn't before.

As a friend of the guy I suggest you tell him to back off on the proposal part. There is no reason for an 18 year old to get engaged and it just makes the whole thing look worse for him. Is he trying to provoke the parents? Is he trying to cement the relationship via engagement? If the latter than he needs to ask himself why it's not strong enough to just move along at a regular pace without the big heavy deal of being engaged. THAT is the part that sounds manipulative to me. An 18 year old girl might be very much carried away by the romance, as the older person in the relationship he needs to take into account her age and lack of life experience and be willing to wait several years at least. If it's two 18 year olds getting engaged it's a bit silly.. but if it's a mid 30's person proposing to an 18 year old a whole lot of other things come into it. The guy needs to be the mature one making mature decisions, not the impulsive one.

What's interesting about this is that the whole proposal thing was brough up by her. From her perspective I think she feels that no one is taking this relationship seriously, everyone is expecting it to fall apart at any moment, especially her parents who feel this is no more than an affair. So the proposal is a bit of a stunt, but they insist that the feelings behind it are completely genuine. They are rather conservative so in their mind the man has to propose. In the end though it was her initial idea and it took some convincing before my friend felt it was the right thing to do. To be honest I think he still has some doubts, not because of how he feels but because of how sensitive everyone is about the situation. It's one of the reasons why he wants my advice. People might feel this is nobody's business and they should figure it out by themselves but they are under a lot of pressure and I think they are looking for a way to calm the waters. An engagement certainly would force the parents to acknowledge the relationship on a different level then they have been prepared to do until now. Would it annoy them further? I'm not sure, they couldn't accuse them anymore of not being serious about their relationship.

In the end I believe what others here have said is true. Time will decide the outcome of this. Time will demonstrate commitment, it will mellow people's attitudes and it will put them both to the test if they really are suited to each other. So they will probably have to stick it out and deal with the criticism and resentment from everyone as long as it lasts. And my prediction is it will last for a very long time so maybe they just have to get used to it.

sounds like teenage reasoning to me. You don't like my boyfriend! I'm gonna marry him then! take that!

speaking as the mother of a 20 year old, I don't take his relationships that seriously either. It has nothing to do with the age of his girlfriends

the only thing that will give their relationship credibility is time.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I have known 2 teenagers who did just that wissaboo--announced their engagement to older men as a reaction to people not taking them seriously. The older men were in their mid to late twenties, not even mid thirties like in this situation. Neither ended up getting married or staying with the person and the engagements just set them up for a lot of eye rolling.

You don't get engaged as a response to other people's reaction to your relationship. That's not a mature response. OP your friend may be quite flattered as to how much she clearly likes him, how serious she is etc.. but having goals and being serious and grown up in your aims (as opposed to wanting to only hang out at the mall when 18) does not equal maturity. A lot of maturity is only learned by life experiences, by taking all those mature ideas you have in your head and testing them out on life.

I want to make it clear that I don't think the relationship is automatically doomed or inappropriate. But I think the onus is on your friend to take the higher road and to look very carefully at what will be the reasoned and caring approach. He needs to be realistic that there WILL be maturity differences. FWIW getting engaged does not make them look more serious about their relationship, it just makes them look more impulsive.

A year from now, if they have spent a year dating and she is obviously getting on with whatever life plans she had prior to this (college or whatever) the parents will have their fears allayed and will most likely be less against it, or at least somewhat used to it. They are not allaying anyone's fears by getting engaged, they are adding to them. There is nothing they can do right now that will fix the parents negative response. It's a long haul situation and it seems they haven't been willing to accept that or to quite understand it.

And yes, your friend needs advice and "staying out of it" doesn't help him if he's looking for input. I think you're doing a great job working it through and since your head is unclouded by the romance you can help him out quite a bit since he's seemingly quite open to discussing and evaluating where to go with this relationship.

 

[Jefferies]

Thank you teacake, I find your arguments really helpful, in particular your point about maturity. And yes, my friend is open to advice and so is his girlfriend. They truly wish to straighten things out with the people they care about and they realise they don't have all the answers. My friend is also not blind to the disparities in this relationship. In fact he has argued this many times to his girlfriend, pointing out the considerable power differential. And there are other factors that further underpin this, not just experience but material wealth for example. She has no assets. He has a car, a house, a stake in his parent's company and a decent amount of savings. They are aware of this and have agreed to try and not let it affect their relationship and to point out when it inadvertently might be doing so. I have to say they are really good at dealing with conflict and disagreement between themselves. For example I have never heard them raise their voices to each other. They just stay calm and talk things over, which isn't to mean they are all lovey-dovey all the time and agree on everything because they don't. But so far they have managed to steer any rough waters pretty well together. And the good thing is they talk about issues such as this one.

 

[Spot's Meow]

An engagement certainly would force the parents to acknowledge the relationship on a different level then they have been prepared to do until now. Would it annoy them further? I'm not sure, they couldn't accuse them anymore of not being serious about their relationship.

I wouldn't be so sure about this part. Getting engaged likely will not force the parents to believe that this is a truly serious relationship; at best, it won't change anything about their opinion. At worst, it will actually make them feel even more strongly that this ISN'T a serious relationship. They will likely believe that this impulsive decision to get engaged is just further proof of how their daughter is not mature enough to handle this relationship. So, I believe that the engagement would have the exact opposite effect than what the couple is intending.

On the surface, your assumption that it will force the parents to take the relationship more seriously seems logical; however, you must take into account that a parent's love is not based on logic at all. They will find ways through and around the logic to reinforce their gut feelings that this is inappropriate and a mistake.

And of course the proposal was her idea - when you were 18, didn't you dream about some mature, attractive man coming along and sweeping you off your feet? You'd get married and play house and everything would be perfect. Okay, so if you are a male that image might have been somewhat different, but I can guarantee that a lot of teenage girls have that exact fantasy. But that's exactly what it is - a fantasy. But when you are young, you buy into the idea that "love conquers all" and even get a kick out of acting out plots straight from Romeo and Juliet. It makes sense at the time ("This person means everything to me, how could it be wrong? We need to get married and start our perfect life together right away!"). Your early twenties serve to knock you into reality and the realization that relationships are hard work and that the right decision isn't always based on your feelings in the moment.

This engagement seems more like a 'feeling in the moment' reaction, rather than one based on having a strong and lasting relationship.

 

[Jefferies]

I wouldn't be so sure about this part. Getting engaged likely will not force the parents to believe that this is a truly serious relationship; at best, it won't change anything about their opinion. At worst, it will actually make them feel even more strongly that this ISN'T a serious relationship. They will likely believe that this impulsive decision to get engaged is just further proof of how their daughter is not mature enough to handle this relationship. So, I believe that the engagement would have the exact opposite effect than what the couple is intending.

On the surface, your assumption that it will force the parents to take the relationship more seriously seems logical; however, you must take into account that a parent's love is not based on logic at all. They will find ways through and around the logic to reinforce their gut feelings that this is inappropriate and a mistake.

And of course the proposal was her idea - when you were 18, didn't you dream about some mature, attractive man coming along and sweeping you off your feet? You'd get married and play house and everything would be perfect. Okay, so if you are a male that image might have been somewhat different, but I can guarantee that a lot of teenage girls have that exact fantasy. But that's exactly what it is - a fantasy. But when you are young, you buy into the idea that "love conquers all" and even get a kick out of acting out plots straight from Romeo and Juliet. It makes sense at the time ("This person means everything to me, how could it be wrong? We need to get married and start our perfect life together right away!"). Your early twenties serve to knock you into reality and the realization that relationships are hard work and that the right decision isn't always based on your feelings in the moment.

This engagement seems more like a 'feeling in the moment' reaction, rather than one based on having a strong and lasting relationship.

I would say your assessment of the proposal is fair. However, I think it's not necessarily immature to believe in the power of romantic love. Hell I'm in my 30s and I still belive it. Maybe, that means I'm a bit hopeless but cynicism even when it lacks bitterness is not equivilant to wisdom.

Edit:
Spot's Meow, having re-read your post I think what you say is very well intentioned. I also think much of what you say is likely to be at play. However, I hold firm regarding romantic love. To view it with so much scepticism is a bit depressing and I say this in response to doubleohfive as well.

 

[doubleohfive]

Actually, I think Spot's Meow hit the nail on the head re: the perspective on romantic love vs. realistic love.

I'm not saying you can't still be idealistic about the "power of romantic love" -- but I've found in my experience that her perspective as described above is much more believable to me than "love conquers all" -- a sad statement on our society, yes, but nonetheless accurate. Love, more often than not, does not conquer all.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

"Love conquers all" is kind of meaningless and weird. "Conquers"? It's a bit all or nothing too, either your relationship challenges were fixed by love or you failed to allow love to conquer them. To me it's like a cartoon of the real nitty gritty that goes on. I'm not skeptical about it, I just think putting all that emphasis on an emotion can make it harder sometimes. Romantic love can have loooong lulls. Stressful circumstances or people having hormonal or brain chemistry issues can make it an impossible feeling to re-acquire so you better have your love based on more than romantic ideals.

 

[horatio83]

We are moving slowly but steadily away from romantic love and towards arranged marriages, basically all becoming little James Bonds who do not want to endure the pure horror of falling in love anymore. It's a very sad development in Western liberalism.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Little James Bonds?

 

[Squiggy]

There's nothing legally wrong with it. Likewise there is nothing legally wrong with this gem:

I mean, it's creepy as hell, morally questionable, and a little sad...but "wrong"...meh.

 

[Amaris]

There's nothing legally wrong with it. Likewise there is nothing legally wrong with this gem:

I mean, it's creepy as hell, morally questionable, and a little sad...but "wrong"...meh.

For me, "morally questionable" only comes into play with intent. If she really loved him, morals and ethics had nothing to do with it.

 

[Danoz]

I don't think 18 and mid-30s are compatible in maturity (either in physical brain development or in life experience), life experiences, or really much of anything that would lead to a successful relationship. I too would question the 18-year-old's decision-making skills. I would also question the older man's decision-making skills, if he is unable to see the problems that this sort of disparity creates. Not a mix for a successful relationship, if you ask me.

Age gaps in general do not have to be a problem. But when you're dealing with an adolescent, who still has not fully developed (and the brain and way of thinking do continue to change noticeably up to about the age of 25), and an older adult, then to me the disparity is questionable.

And yeah, I have to agree that this would reflect badly upon him as a teacher. Regardless of whether or not anything illicit has happened, I think a lot of people will come to that conclusion and would not want their girls in a class with him.

This

I think it's creepy. I'm 27 and I would feel uncomfortable dating an 18 year old girl... it's very young and people change a lot in those years. I can tell you if I had daughters in the school system, I wouldn't want that teacher anywhere near my kids.

 

[doubleohfive]

I wouldn't be so sure about this part. Getting engaged likely will not force the parents to believe that this is a truly serious relationship; at best, it won't change anything about their opinion. At worst, it will actually make them feel even more strongly that this ISN'T a serious relationship. They will likely believe that this impulsive decision to get engaged is just further proof of how their daughter is not mature enough to handle this relationship. So, I believe that the engagement would have the exact opposite effect than what the couple is intending.

On the surface, your assumption that it will force the parents to take the relationship more seriously seems logical; however, you must take into account that a parent's love is not based on logic at all. They will find ways through and around the logic to reinforce their gut feelings that this is inappropriate and a mistake.

And of course the proposal was her idea - when you were 18, didn't you dream about some mature, attractive man coming along and sweeping you off your feet? You'd get married and play house and everything would be perfect. Okay, so if you are a male that image might have been somewhat different, but I can guarantee that a lot of teenage girls have that exact fantasy. But that's exactly what it is - a fantasy. But when you are young, you buy into the idea that "love conquers all" and even get a kick out of acting out plots straight from Romeo and Juliet. It makes sense at the time ("This person means everything to me, how could it be wrong? We need to get married and start our perfect life together right away!"). Your early twenties serve to knock you into reality and the realization that relationships are hard work and that the right decision isn't always based on your feelings in the moment.

This engagement seems more like a 'feeling in the moment' reaction, rather than one based on having a strong and lasting relationship.

I would say your assessment of the proposal is fair. However, I think it's not necessarily immature to believe in the power of romantic love. Hell I'm in my 30s and I still belive it. Maybe, that means I'm a bit hopeless but cynicism even when it lacks bitterness is not equivilant to wisdom.

Edit:
Spot's Meow, having re-read your post I think what you say is very well intentioned. I also think much of what you say is likely to be at play. However, I hold firm regarding romantic love. To view it with so much scepticism is a bit depressing and I say this in response to doubleohfive as well.

Well, nobody else can control what you find depressing. That said, I can only speak from my own experience. You must have better luck with the women you date. Life has a way of getting in the way sometimes, and sometimes people just aren't strong enough to put aside whatever is going on and rely on the "love conquers all" bit to get them through whatever turmoil, crisis, boredom or malaise that life throws at them.

I'm glad it's been true for you; I'll let you know when I find someone who can support the theory.

 

[Jefferies]

...so you better have your love based on more than romantic ideals.

This goes without saying. But I find the opposite argument also holds true. Romantic feeling should be part of the equation as well. Otherwise what's the difference to just being friends with benefits or whatever other cynical discription one wants to use for this? Also, when I say romantic love I don't just mean that head over heels, hearthrobbing, mind-numbing sensation at the beginning of a relationship. Romantic love can also be steady and familiar. In fact I think its at that point where it really gets interesting in a relationship. Which doesn't mean that there won't be peaks and troughs, because that's true of most things in life.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Okay I've now read Spot's Meow's post 3 times and I can't see anything remotely depressing about it. Unless you think someone saying nice fantasies have a reality side is depressing.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

There's nothing legally wrong with it. Likewise there is nothing legally wrong with this gem:

I mean, it's creepy as hell, morally questionable, and a little sad...but "wrong"...meh.

For me, "morally questionable" only comes into play with intent. If she really loved him, morals and ethics had nothing to do with it.

Something can have zero moral questionablness but still be stupid. It can be ethically fine but still be stupid.

The fact that the girl in the OP's story is of legal age doesn't mean there's not a whole lot of potential here to be stupid. My main point is that it is up to the older person in the relationship to go about it with the least amount of stupid possible. Getting engaged to prove something is stupid. Being very much in love doesn't make it any less so.

And really it does come down to there not being ANYTHING that can improve people's opinions of this relationship except time. If they really love each other they will be willing to invest the time and wait for the objections to fall away. I say this as a person who was in a 5 year long distant relationship (across the ocean). There were some people who objected to my relationship for whom time was the only thing that proved it to them as being worthy.

 

[Mr Awe]

Love doesn't "conquer all." It's an emotion that exists in the real world. Does any other emotion "conquer all."

The girl is clearly behaving in an immature manner. That's despite the fact that the OP describes her as "very mature." Again, this is a common description in these types of cases and I generally find these to be cover for the older person as to why they'd be so interested in someone that is so far below there maturity level.

Honestly, I just wouldn't find an 18 year old that interesting.

Jefferies, I don't think this is such a big dillemma as you make out. I've outlined several possibilities but they all point to one starting position for you, be there for your friend.

1) If this relationship crashes and burns soons, as is statistically likely, you should be there for him.

2) If this relationship lasts, well, there's no reason to not be there for him. Anxiety's from others will subside as she grows older and the relationship is seen as stable.

3) On the chance that there were improper, manipulative actions, you need to be there as an observer. You could be the girls first line of help, if needed. Not saying that's the case, but if it is, it is again best that you're there.

Basically, all scenarios point to you being there for him (and her). You don't need to be showy about it and going out of your way to make a public stand. Just be a friend, plain and simple. If the parents pressure you, just say that you're a friend to all of them. Let them know you're supporting the couple but that you're keeping an eye out for their daughter.

Mr Awe

 

[Amaris]

Something can have zero moral questionablness but still be stupid. It can be ethically fine but still be stupid.

The fact that the girl in the OP's story is of legal age doesn't mean there's not a whole lot of potential here to be stupid. My main point is that it is up to the older person in the relationship to go about it with the least amount of stupid possible. Getting engaged to prove something is stupid. Being very much in love doesn't make it any less so.

It is true that stupidity is not eliminated by age, and any couple of any age can be stupid. Like I said, if they were in love, it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.

And really it does come down to there not being ANYTHING that can improve people's opinions of this relationship except time. If they really love each other they will be willing to invest the time and wait for the objections to fall away. I say this as a person who was in a 5 year long distant relationship (across the ocean). There were some people who objected to my relationship for whom time was the only thing that proved it to them as being worthy.

Keeping in mind, though, that you don't have to prove anything to them at all. It is your discretion to do so, but it's not required.