Poll Is Michael Burnham a "Mary Sue"?

[F. King Daniel]

That's the one thing we can't change, I presume so you couldn't do a "which sexual fantasies do you enjoy" anonymous poll and then have the moderator switch it to public.

Or another less weird example.

I love that your mind immediately went there

 

[Alan Roi]

Hell no. For reasons others have already articulated. The main one being that she's the star of the show. She's meant to have focus and qualities which some might find exceptional. But the DSC writers have also given her some pretty obvious flaws and had characters close to her call her out on them.

I do want to elaborate on one thing, however, and that is I find the writing in that scene between Spock and Michael really outstanding in terms of highlighting the issues they have with each other. But I people who are inclined to'crackerize' (see the eating crackers meme) Michael seem to view it as a great chance to "take her down a peg", give her a "verbal smackdown", "put her in her place" and other such sentiments. These commenters might even call her "uppity". You can see where I am going with this. But it does the scene a disservice because Spock is correctly pointing out that she's taking all the guilt and blame upon herself. Self flagellating. Yes, it's a form of self-importance which can be irritating, but it's reflected inwards, focused on her past failures. She thinks she has to shoulder the burdens alone, and to fix things by herself, because she thinks SHE made the mistakes which led to those bad situations in the first place. Therefore she is constantly seeking atonement, rushing to solve every problem alone in order to avoid facing her grief, her loss and the fact that sometimes events will be out of her control. This is the opposite of an arrogant, narcissistic person (which many like to claim she is).

I wonder if those same people who dislike Michael so intensely also hate Sisko's entire character arc, which is about letting go of the past and accepting his role as Emissary. The Chosen One. Space Jesus.

Actually, my problem with Sisko's arc is his gradual loss of agency over the course of the series until he is turned into exactly what the Worm Hole aliens need as a tool to fix their problem. In the end there was no way for him to escape a fate that was mapped out for him. Space Jesus. It was interesting to follow along see if he could escape that fate. Its the man vs. God narrative. But in the end, he's a puppet to an outside force.

So far, I don't see Burnham having such an arc, as it appears that her fate involves whether she can overcome her self-imposed savior complex. And so far I find her more interesting because she's not a far more powerful being's puppet. Her's is a man vs himself narrative.

 

[Lord Garth]

Actually, my problem with Sisko's arc is his gradual loss of agency over the course of the series until he is turned into exactly what the Worm Hole aliens need as a tool to fix their problem. In the end there was no way for him to escape a fate that was mapped out for him. Space Jesus. It was interesting to follow along see if he could escape that fate. Its the man vs. God narrative. But in the end, he's a puppet to an outside force.

Good/Sisko/Bajor/Federation/Prophets vs. Evil/Dukat/Cardassia/Dominion/Pah'Wraigths

What I like about the current arc in Discovery is that it doesn't seem like everything will end up split so exactly down the middle on every level. At least I hope not.

 

[saddestmoon]

To answer the OP’s question - No, Michael Burnham isn’t a Mary Sue.

 

[eschaton]

I answered no, though the answer is really more complex.

In the first season, she was not really a Mary Sue, but she had some Sue-like tendencies, including:

1. Other characters had scripted dialogue which included effusive praise for her.
2. Multiple characters were way too into her. Sarek seemed to like her more than Spock. Tyler was in love with her. Lorca was secretly obsessed with her. MU Georgiou felt emotionally connected to her due to MU Burnham having the same face, etc.
3. She's hyper-competent across a wide number of fields (though this is nothing new for Starfleet officers).
4. Although she's clearly shown as having flaws (her whole arc starts due to a big one) the season was somewhat muddled about it. A good example is her original "mutiny," where the way the episode is constructed makes it seem like Georgiou is the naive fool for thinking "we come in peace" will work, making Burnham's position - although self-defeating for her - arguably come across as the "correct" decision to make.

All of these elements - aside from the hyper-competence (which again, is normal on Trek) have now receded. She's still clearly the lead, but anyone who thinks she shows any Sue-like qualities any longer just hasn't been watching the show.

 

[johnjm22]

She is overly compatent at times, but she isn't a literal Mary Sue.

Either way she's a bland boring character.

 

[Awesome Possum]

I’ll be so glad when this Mary Sue dies. It’s not even criticism, it’s shitposting.

 

[Skipper]

I think you mean "derailed", but come to think of it, "deranged" is pretty accurate too.

Yes, I meant "derailed", but this one of the definition of "to derange"

derange
[dih-reynj]
verb (used with object), de·ranged, de·rang·ing.

1. to throw into disorder; disarrange.
2. to disturb the condition, action, or function of.
3. to make insane.

So, yes, you are right, it's pretty accurate.

 

[Refuge]

Golly no. She's a Dreary Sue though. Killed Star Trek for me.

 

[Refuge]

Yes, I meant "derailed", but this one of the definition of "to derange"

derange
[dih-reynj]
verb (used with object), de·ranged, de·rang·ing.

1. to throw into disorder; disarrange.
2. to disturb the condition, action, or function of.
3. to make insane.

So, yes, you are right, it's pretty accurate.

BTW congrats on the thread

 

[Skipper]

This is the original story from which the term "Mary Sue" comes. So everyone can judge by themselves if the term applies to Michael Burnham...

A TREKKIE'S TALE
By Paula Smith

"Gee, golly, gosh, gloriosky," thought Mary Sue as she stepped on the bridge of the Enterprise. "Here I am, the youngest lieutenant in the fleet - only fifteen and a half years old." Captain Kirk came up to her. "Oh, Lieutenant, I love you madly. Will you come to bed with me?" "Captain! I am not that kind of girl!" "You're right, and I respect you for it. Here, take over the ship for a minute while I go get some coffee for us." Mr. Spock came onto the bridge. "What are you doing in the command seat, Lieutenant?" "The Captain told me to." "Flawlessly logical. I admire your mind."
Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy and Mr. Scott beamed down with Lt. Mary Sue to Rigel XXXVII. They were attacked by green androids and thrown into prison. In a moment of weakness Lt. Mary Sue revealed to Mr. Spock that she too was half Vulcan. Recovering quickly, she sprung the lock with her hairpin and they all got away back to the ship.
But back on board, Dr. McCoy and Lt. Mary Sue found out that the men who had beamed down were seriously stricken by the jumping cold robbies , Mary Sue less so. While the four officers languished in Sick Bay, Lt. Mary Sue ran the ship, and ran it so well she received the Nobel Peace Prize, the Vulcan Order of Gallantry and the Tralfamadorian Order of Good Guyhood.
However the disease finally got to her and she fell fatally ill. In the Sick Bay as she breathed her last, she was surrounded by Captain Kirk, Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Mr. Scott, all weeping unashamedly at the loss of her beautiful youth and youthful beauty, intelligence, capability and all around niceness. Even to this day her birthday is a national holiday of the Enterprise.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

A masterpiece!

 

[Crazyewok]

I dont think she is a mart sue in the traditional sense.

I just think the character is dull and boring and think Discovery weak point is focusing on her.

 

[Skipper]

A masterpiece!

Right? Except for the names, it's EXACTLY like your average Discovery episode

 

[Skipper]

This bit from the Wikipedia Page is interesting

In chapter four of her book Enterprising Women,[8] Camille Bacon-Smith states that fear of creating a "Mary Sue" may be restricting and even silencing to some writers.

Smith quotes an issue of the Star Trek fanzine Archives[9] as identifying "Mary Sue" paranoia as one of the sources for the lack of "believable, competent, and identifiable-with [sic] female characters." In this article, author Joanna Cantor interviews her sister Edith, also an amateur editor, who says she receives stories with cover letters apologizing for the tale as "a Mary Sue", even when the author admits she does not know what a "Mary Sue" is. According to Edith Cantor, while Paula Smith's original "Trekkie's Tale" was only ten paragraphs long, "in terms of their impact on those whom they affect, those words [Mary Sue] have got to rank right up there with the Selective Service Act".[10] At Clippercon 1987 (a Star Trek fan convention held yearly in Baltimore, Maryland), Smith interviewed a panel of female authors who say they do not include female characters in their stories at all. She quoted one as saying "Every time I've tried to put a woman in any story I've ever written, everyone immediately says, this is a Mary Sue." Smith also pointed out that "Participants in a panel discussion in January 1990 noted with growing dismay that any female character created within the community is damned with the term Mary Sue."[11]

So people were afraid to create strong female characters because they feared they would be labelled as "Mary Sue", like it's happening right here for Burnham.

 

[Nyotarules]

I’ll be so glad when this Mary Sue dies. It’s not even criticism, it’s shitposting.

Mary Sue
2165-2565
Rest in Peace, longest lived, most intelligent and most beautiful human and sentient being ever!
Best Human mother, girlfriend, daughter, and special 'friend' (cough cough lover) of Captains Archer, Reed, April, Pike, Georgiou, Lorca, Kirk, Spock, Scott, McCoy, Picard, Sisko, Janeway and Ambassadors Sarek, Troi and others.
Best ever Starfleet Ensign, Lieutenant jg, Lieutenant, Lt Commander, Captain, Commodore, Rear/Vice/Fleet Admiral and President of the UFP all before the age of 30!
Reformer of Sections 31-38 into charitable institutions
Gone and hopefully will be forgotten as soon as we torpedo her coffin to the Genesis planet....
Farewell Bitch!

 

[SJGardner]

I never considered her a Mary Sue. She's a deeply flawed character who comes from a similar childhood emotional environment to mine and who's fighting much of the same demons as I am. For that reason, she's the first Star Trek lead I can truly relate to or even identify with. In Picard I've often seen an idealized representation of who I wanted to become, but I can see much of myself in Burnham, for better or worse.

 

[Nyotarules]

So far IMO Discovery Pike is a Gary Stu, his only minor hiccup is he missed the war and feels he needs to prove he is a hero, apart from that Anson Mount's portrayal makes me sing the song Sexual Healing every time he comes on the TV!
If I ever write a Discovery fanfic it will include Pike and bad boy Lorca, I'm putting myself in the story as the Sexy Sue and we ain't going to be playing chess!

 

[Crazyewok]

This bit from the Wikipedia Page is interesting

In chapter four of her book Enterprising Women,[8] Camille Bacon-Smith states that fear of creating a "Mary Sue" may be restricting and even silencing to some writers.

Smith quotes an issue of the Star Trek fanzine Archives[9] as identifying "Mary Sue" paranoia as one of the sources for the lack of "believable, competent, and identifiable-with [sic] female characters." In this article, author Joanna Cantor interviews her sister Edith, also an amateur editor, who says she receives stories with cover letters apologizing for the tale as "a Mary Sue", even when the author admits she does not know what a "Mary Sue" is. According to Edith Cantor, while Paula Smith's original "Trekkie's Tale" was only ten paragraphs long, "in terms of their impact on those whom they affect, those words [Mary Sue] have got to rank right up there with the Selective Service Act".[10] At Clippercon 1987 (a Star Trek fan convention held yearly in Baltimore, Maryland), Smith interviewed a panel of female authors who say they do not include female characters in their stories at all. She quoted one as saying "Every time I've tried to put a woman in any story I've ever written, everyone immediately says, this is a Mary Sue." Smith also pointed out that "Participants in a panel discussion in January 1990 noted with growing dismay that any female character created within the community is damned with the term Mary Sue."[11]

So people were afraid to create strong female characters because they feared they would be labelled as "Mary Sue", like it's happening right here for Burnham.

Storm in a tea cup. People are making a fuss over nothing.


No one dislikes strong female characters, people just don't want BORING characters, male or female.


Discovery is not exactly edgy or ground breaking .voyger had a strong female captain.....only difference was she was a interesting character.

 

[Skipper]

No one dislikes strong female characters, people just don't want BORING characters, male or female.

If this is the case, why they don't just say she is a boring character, instead of labeling her as a "Mary Sue"? In other word, why they don't use a gender-neutral adjective to indicate their distaste..?