Is it time for Peter David to go?

[Trent Roman]

I think part of the problem everybody seems to be having defining "standalone" is simply the way we tend to consume media in this day and age. With the advent of the DVD box set for television and the trade paperback collection for comic books, we now look at stories in different ways. Authors and producers can now safely assume that if somebody really wants back story, they can simply go and find it through a variety of means, and not everything has to be recapped ad nauseum. We're no longer limited to the information presented in the books, comics, or novels we read. Everything we want to know for context is on the internet, and the previous installments are generally readily available whenever we want them.

Precisely. What baffles me about a lot of the complaints re: interconnectivity is this sense that there's some kind of deadline that needs to be met; as though, if you're not up to date with whatever new release is coming out, it'll vanish into the aether without you ever having the chance to consume it. Apart from the irritating fact that some of these books go out of print (and then there's always the electronic versions, assuming the e-book department gets its act together), these stories aren't going anywhere. You'd think some of these people have never picked up an older book. I don't worry, say, that I can't possibly read Foundation and Earth because I haven't read the previous Foundation books; I'll just start at the beginning with the first book and get to the latter entries in my own good time. Or if I missed a large chunk of a TV series and don't think I'll be able to catch up to the live broadcasts, I'll wait for the DVDs to come out at the rental store. It's like, chillax, yo: not everything needs be instantaneous.

Creditorly yours, the Rent Roman

 

[Defcon]

If you can't bring in new readers, the numbers stagnate,

Actually I guess they would be going down, since even socalled "die hard" fans can grow weary of the books after a time and move on, or just simply lose their ability to buy and/or read the books anymore (unemployment, illness, death etc.).

And while I like the continuity in the books, I wouldn't be adverse to more true stand alones.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

I don't worry, say, that I can't possibly read Foundation and Earth because I haven't read the previous Foundation books; I'll just start at the beginning with the first book and get to the latter entries in my own good time.

I certainly wouldn't recommend reading F&Earth without reading the prior Foundation novels and the Robot novels. Yeah, you can read it, but it's probably the least accessible of the Foundation books on its own terms.

 

[Claudia]

You'd think some of these people have never picked up an older book. I don't worry, say, that I can't possibly read Foundation and Earth because I haven't read the previous Foundation books; I'll just start at the beginning with the first book and get to the latter entries in my own good time. Or if I missed a large chunk of a TV series and don't think I'll be able to catch up to the live broadcasts, I'll wait for the DVDs to come out at the rental store.

Granted, I do the same - if the episode I already watched appeals to me, then I start from the beginning. But that requires having watched/enjoyed/more or less understood the plot. And that's quite hard to do with an arc-heavy programme. I'd say I'd never have picked up "24" if I had watched first a random episode in the middle of the season - except for the fact that people are killed left and right by some person who apparently works for some governmental agency where intrigues are the order of the day... without any context, no one can follow the plot (it's sometimes even hard enough to do so having watched from the beginning *g*).

The same applies to book series. I have little interest to invest time and money in reading the whole of DS9-relaunch that I missed, just to understand the plot in the book I want to read right now because the blurb appealed to me. My copy of "Destiny" no. 1 was shipped yesterday - I'm really looking forward to reading this, although I haven't read much of the Relaunch books of any series. If I find it was a waste of money, I'll be quite disappointed - and I'll definitely not revoke my decision not to read any of the preceding books. I simply have no time to play catch up.

I do appreciate, though, real stand-alone stories that depend on no prior knowledge save the TV-series or movies. There should definitely be more of those - IMO half the book releases per year. This doesn't only concern the casual reader, but also those who've followed ST-bookverse for years and just are tired of major story-arcs and interrelated books.

 

[William Leisner]

But, isn't it just as likely that this theoretical new buyer, in picking up a Trek book at random, will say, "I don't fully understand who this Captain Klag is, so I'm going to track down the other Trek books he appeared in and give Pocket even more of my money"?

BTW, for those in the know... how many of the bazillion Star Wars books clogging the SF/F section are "stand alones," and how many rely on characters and storylines created outside of the six films? And is Lucas making a poor business choice by not restricting his EU to stories about Luke and Leia and Jar-Jar?

 

[BrotherBenny]

IMO, standalone novels are those that aren't in a defined series. Anything that takes place between the pilot and finale (barring crossovers and such) of a given series and doesn't have preludes or sequels is a standalone, just as AotF, FoF and EM are (though I still maintain that the latter two could be great series). I will accept that TLE is a theme rather than a series and those novels are standalones, I was wrong there, as I was with the MU and MyrU books.

As for it being time for PAD to go, I'll reserve judgement until after reading Treason. The NF series has had its ups and downs and I'd rather PAD concentrated on that than writing something in another line. After reading Vendetta and Before Dishonor, I have to admit that I don't think he gets the characters of the TNG crew (old or new) right. I don't want him to leave the trekverse, he's made it a far richer place with his hijinx, but sometimes he goes a little overboard.

 

[captcalhoun]

most SW novels are in one series or another between Clone Wars, the Republic Commando series within same, Legacy of the Force, the New Jedi Order, Coruscant Nights etc. many of these heavily feature EU characters, with the RCs not even including ANY movie characters beyond Jango and Boba Fett cameos

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I was thrilled when he got permission to use Arex and M'ress, but he so badly mishandled M'ress (turned her into a right proper b****)

Considering PAD himself had tapped a flirtatious/comedic side to M'Ress in the post-ST IV comics he did for DC, I saw M'Ress's 24th century personality shift to be part of her emotional state in reaction to being uprooted almost a century. Most of Arex's long-lived relatives are still alive. M'Ress had only Arex. Both of them had to relearn many skills to survive as Stafleet officers in a new century. Her bitchiness has certainly toned down in recent NF arcs. I particularly liked the revelations about her in Janos's arc in "Stone and Anvil", for example.

Perhaps, but he made her so UNlikeable before that that I stopped caring either way. And the Selelven (?) sexual harrasser was a badguy version of a Gary Stu, the way he was written. Not to mention the idea that such a thing would EVER be tolerated on a Starfleet vessel just rankled.

A good editor would have pulled PAD in a bit, made him rethink such questionable story choices.

The couple of times I've shelf-browsed the latter books, they came off (to me) as equal parts superhero comic and "Starfleet Days of our Lives". Just WAY too out there for my tastes.

 

[doubleohfive]

PAD stays.

 

[-Brett-]

Is it time for Peter David to go?

I wouldn't say he necessarily needs to go, just that he needs to never be allowed to write TNG again.

If he botched TNG that badly, he'd probably do the same with TOS and DS9, so keep him away from those series as well.

Come to think of it, just keep him confined to New Frontier. And no more cameos from outside that series.

 

[Amaris]

PAD stays.

Seconded.

I love Peter David's work. Are we seriously getting to the point where if the author hits a minor off key note, it's time to put him out to pasture? None of his other high quality contributions come into play?

Peter David stays, in my over glorified opinion, and I hope he takes a crack at the novels which may happen after the new Star Trek movie while he's at it.


J.

 

[Newspaper Taxi]

Peter David wanted to make the Borg "scary again", if I remember correctly. The concept of the Borg absorbing material was an interesting one to me but it had more of a weird factor to it than it did a fear factor. The part with Pluto getting destroyed was a real dark humor moment -- on one hand, Pluto is removed from Star Trek canon. On the other hand, the Borg managed to absorb 1/9 of the "Classic 20th Century Planet-Objects" and sucked up energy from our sun. Hopefully the sun's lifespan isn't hurt.

I would say, though, that to avoid this kind of backlash, they might consider holding a slightly more tight leash on him -- Although he won't come back if he feels he's too creatively restrained. I'm not even certain how much it was his idea for the Borg development and Janeway's death, etc.

Of all of Peter David's books that I've read I'd say this was my least favorite, although it didn't upset me as much as the ending to Sir Apropos of Nothing book 3 did. I was loving the book until what they did to Apropos...I don't know if I could read the character again.

 

[The Grim Ghost]

Yes, it is. Like I said in another recent thread, let him stay with the New Frontier books and Star Trek comics if he wants to. That way his fans can continue to enjoy his take on the Star Trek universe.

His recent non-NF books show (me at least) that he has no place in the 'regular' TNG relaunch series. Over the last few years the quality of Trek Lit has improved so much..his style sticks out like a sore thumb when put up against KRAD's, D. Mack's, etc. These guys have taken Trek Lit to the next level, and Peter David is stuck in the 90s with awful attempts at humor, mishandling character dialogue and constant comic booky references.

I don't think he is a horrible writer, I just don't care for his style. It is suited well for comic books, but not for Trek. Keep him on with NF and the comics, they play to his strengths.

 

[Defcon]

If he botched TNG that badly,

I have said something similar a while ago: If every author who has "botched" a novel in the eyes of a part of the readership was barred from continuing to write for Trek we soon would have no books coming out at all, or only books by first-time writers (most likely it would be their last time, too, since every book will have a group of people bitching about it) .

 

[Therin of Andor]

Peter David is stuck in the 90s with awful attempts at humor, mishandling character dialogue and constant comic booky references.

And yet many people agree he struck gold with "Imzadi", "Imzadi II: Triangle", "The Rift", "Strike Zone" and "Vendetta".

 

[Steve Roby]

But, isn't it just as likely that this theoretical new buyer, in picking up a Trek book at random, will say, "I don't fully understand who this Captain Klag is, so I'm going to track down the other Trek books he appeared in and give Pocket even more of my money"?

Works for me. The first Doctor Who novel I picked up in 2001 (The Taking of Planet 5 by Simon Bucher-Jones and Mark Clapham) was one of the arc-heaviest books in the series, not that I knew that at the time. But all the stuff about the Celestis, Fitz, Compassion, and all the other unfamiliar names made me think, okay, this is not just an attempt to tell a TV-style story, it's doing a lot more than that. This is part of something big and interesting.

The DS9 relaunch is, what, a couple dozen books? That's not a lot. When I read The Taking of Planet 5 there were already more than 40 books in the Eighth Doctor Adventures series (plus 61 in the New Adventures series, and dozens of Missing Adventures and Past Doctor Adventures). But the unfamiliar continuity elements in The Taking of Planet 5 made me want to find out more. So I bought and read a lot more books. Way more than a couple dozen.

It's common for book series to count on continuity hooking readers. (Hell, isn't that the point of series, whether they're books, TV, movies, or games?) It isn't just SF, either. There are uncountable mystery series featuring a cop or private eye who solves a case in each novel but also has a whole lot of ongoing character arc stuff from book to book -- supporting characters, nemeses, relationships, etc.

BTW, for those in the know... how many of the bazillion Star Wars books clogging the SF/F section are "stand alones," and how many rely on characters and storylines created outside of the six films? And is Lucas making a poor business choice by not restricting his EU to stories about Luke and Leia and Jar-Jar?

The Republic Commando novels just went from mass market paperback to hardcover, despite not being about any of the big screen characters. Star Wars books dramatically outsell Star Trek books, judging by the bestseller lists in Locus, the news magazine of the SF publishing world. The Star Wars novel line is doing just fine.

 

[DimesDan]

To answer the original question, I'm not sure, I have read a few PAD novels and have really enjoyed them, but I've not read any of New Frontier and I'm not a comic book reader, so I can't really compare his work 15>20 years ago to what he does now. I will admit though, that all his work I have read, they've all had some more out landish scenes which sometimes have grated, but he does a far better job of writing fiction that I've ever been able to.

I know that the original question is a theoretical one, but would it even have been asked if PAD posted on here and if KRAD, or Christopher or David or Dayton slipped in their quality, would the question "Is it time for X to go?" get discussed?

 

[William Leisner]

It's common for book series to count on continuity hooking readers. (Hell, isn't that the point of series, whether they're books, TV, movies, or games?) It isn't just SF, either. There are uncountable mystery series featuring a cop or private eye who solves a case in each novel but also has a whole lot of ongoing character arc stuff from book to book -- supporting characters, nemeses, relationships, etc.

Absolutely. I got drawn into Ed McBain's 87th Precinct series with Candyland, which I believe was something like the 80th book in the series, and had evidence of tons of character backstory that, even though I walked in at the middle, was still perfectly readable and enjoyable. I've since read all the way to the end of series, and have since come back around to its early '60s roots.

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ Exactly. Nelson DeMille, Tom Clancy, Kathy Reichs, Greg Rucka, and Lee Child are just some examples off the top of my head where this is the case. Indeed, I started with Rucka, Child, and DeMille with books written well after the first appearance of their respective characters, and after finishing those books went back and started at the beginning.

 

[LightningStorm]

Peter David is stuck in the 90s with awful attempts at humor, mishandling character dialogue and constant comic booky references.

And yet many people agree he struck gold with "Imzadi", "Imzadi II: Triangle", "The Rift", "Strike Zone" and "Vendetta".

All of which came out in the 90s.