Is it time for Peter David to go?

[Turbo]

Yes, PAD's early stuff was better. But that doesn't automatically mean that he won't reach that level again. His NF stuff is still pretty good, and Before Dishonor is the outlier. Now if the next book gets ripped apart as much as this one did, then we'll have more of a topic.

 

[danjamesb]

Works for me. The first Doctor Who novel I picked up in 2001 (The Taking of Planet 5 by Simon Bucher-Jones and Mark Clapham) was one of the arc-heaviest books in the series, not that I knew that at the time. But all the stuff about the Celestis, Fitz, Compassion, and all the other unfamiliar names made me think, okay, this is not just an attempt to tell a TV-style story, it's doing a lot more than that. This is part of something big and interesting.

Absolutely. I got drawn into Ed McBain's 87th Precinct series with Candyland, which I believe was something like the 80th book in the series, and had evidence of tons of character backstory that, even though I walked in at the middle, was still perfectly readable and enjoyable. I've since read all the way to the end of series, and have since come back around to its early '60s roots.

Exactly. Nelson DeMille, Tom Clancy, Kathy Reichs, Greg Rucka, and Lee Child are just some examples off the top of my head where this is the case. Indeed, I started with Rucka, Child, and DeMille with books written well after the first appearance of their respective characters, and after finishing those books went back and started at the beginning.

Thanks for sharing.

I've had similar experiences myself - I listened to the Doctor Who audio Caerdroia without having heard any of the other plays from the Divergent Universe arc, and have since gone back and caught up.

But it's not a question of whether it's possible to do so, it's about whether it ought to be necessary for people who want to read one Trek novel to make a larger commitment at all.

 

[Deano2099]

Funny that the Before Dishonour arguement crops up in the same thread as the 'too much continuity' thing, given BD is mainly criticised for not abiding by continuity enough.

On that note, all the TNG 'relaunch' books are being marketed as standalone. In fact the 'relaunch' is just an invention of fandom. There's no numbers, special logos etc.

And I'd argue they do stand-alone as episodic entries. Yes, three of them all deal with the Borg, but that's like saying Q Who wasn't 'stand alone' as we knew the Borg were coming back. And as has been pointed out, BD isn't that much in continuity with the others, PAD hadn't even read Q and A when writing it, there doesn't seem to be a major editorial push to have them all tie together as closely as even Titan.

I'm enjoying BD at the moment, it's a different take on post-NEM TNG, I don't have a problem with that

 

[Dayton Ward]

But it's not a question of whether it's possible to do so, it's about whether it ought to be necessary for people who want to read one Trek novel to make a larger commitment at all.

Um, no, it's not necessary, which is the point of the examples being made. I didn't feel compelled or required to pick up other books about a certain character because I came in mid-stream and felt like I was missing out on something. The story I read was good enough that I wanted to go back, and see what it was this author had previously written about these characters.

 

[William Leisner]

But it's not a question of whether it's possible to do so, it's about whether it ought to be necessary for people who want to read one Trek novel to make a larger commitment at all.

Um, no, it's not necessary, which is the point of the examples being made. I didn't feel compelled or required to pick up other books about a certain character because I came in mid-stream and felt like I was missing out on something. The story I read was good enough that I wanted to go back, and see what it was this author had previously written about these characters.

QFT.

I would love to know where people are seeing these roving bands of gun-toting Pocket Books thugs forcing poor innocent casual fans to buy multiple books.

 

[Dayton Ward]

 

[OmahaStar]

I've had similar experiences myself - I listened to the Doctor Who audio Caerdroia without having heard any of the other plays from the Divergent Universe arc, and have since gone back and caught up.

Try having your first Doctor Who audio be the triple disc Zagreus, like I did.

That sucker was scary. I know who Charlie is now, though!

 

[JD]

I've actually jumped into the middle of a story arc right now. I'm reading The Legacy, part of the Drizzt series of Forgotten Realms books, and even though it is the 7th book in the series I've been following well enough. But at the same time it's gotten me curious enough about what happen before that I want to read the other 2 trilogies that come before the miniseries The Legacy starts. I'll admit though that I look a few things up on the internet before hand, but that was mostly just baisic who, and what stuff.

 

[BrotherBenny]

Star Wars books dramatically outsell Star Trek books, judging by the bestseller lists in Locus, the news magazine of the SF publishing world. The Star Wars novel line is doing just fine.

I don't get that. The SW novels are pure drivel, minimal character and pulp scifi plots. I guess that there are more SW book-reading fans than ST book-reading fans. It's the only thing I can think of that makes them so successful.

 

[danjamesb]

But it's not a question of whether it's possible to do so, it's about whether it ought to be necessary for people who want to read one Trek novel to make a larger commitment at all.

Um, no, it's not necessary, which is the point of the examples being made. I didn't feel compelled or required to pick up other books about a certain character because I came in mid-stream and felt like I was missing out on something. The story I read was good enough that I wanted to go back, and see what it was this author had previously written about these characters.

Yeah, that happened when I listened to Caerdroia out of sequence too, and I have no doubt it happens with TrekLit. "Necessary" was probably the wrong word to use there.

Anyone familiar with TNG should be able to follow Q&A without too much trouble, and they might have their curiosity piqued enough to pick up Before Dishonor and Greater than the Sum, or go back and read Death in Winter and Resistance. If so, that's brilliant.

But I also think there are situations where the reverse will be true. Someone who's casually watched Deep Space Nine in the past might see Star Trek XI, and decide to pick up a novel or two, wanting a couple more self-contained Trek stories to devour. They go to Borders, and there's an pretty-looking novel called Fearful Symmetry with Kira Nerys on the cover. I honestly think that they'd struggle with it, given the number of ongoing storylines and unfamiliar characters in the post-finale books, and not everyone will want to buy fifteen other novels to enhance their enjoyment of one they're not really following. If they'd picked up Vengeance or Proud Helios, on the other hand, they'd probably have less of a problem.

I know I'm not in a position to speak with authority about this sort of thing, but I think there's probably a decent market for self-contained standalone stories, set in our universe, during the television series, which make few (if any) references to other novels. There are people who want books like those, and they're not really catered for by the line at the moment. And with a new movie on the way, which could potentially re-energise the franchise and bring in a lot of new readers for the fiction line, I genuinely believe there should few more of those books.

*shrug*



Edit: It worked for Doctor Who: when the series returned in 2005, the serialised Paul McGann novels were stopped, and replaced by standalone one-off adventures. A small number of fans who preferred the arc-based storytelling have been disgruntled, but the sales have been phenomenal in comparison to the older books.

 

[Brendan Moody]

Another point that could be made in this discussion is that the appearance of heavy continuity can be as bad as its actual presence. I don't doubt that most readers who really cared could, if they tried, enjoy (say) Destiny in spite of not having read Titan or the TNG-R or the DS9-R. But if they don't realize that they can, they won't try, and I don't think the books make enough effort to appear accessible.

Since they've already been brought up as a point of comparison, the Doctor Who NAs and EDAs faced a similar problem: the average entry is pretty standalone and accessible (more so, I'd argue, than current Trek fiction, but never mind that now), but with a long list of previous entries in the back and cover copy that emphasizes the book's placement in a series, it could seem like they were much more convoluted than they were. This was exacerbated by the tendency of fans like us to revel in and discuss arcs and continuity points to the exclusion of the standalone aspects of the books. At one point those novels did an arc that closed off a lot of the built-up continuity from previous books and offered a jumping on point where things started basically from scratch; I'd imagine that had at least something to do with concerns like this.

The casual peruser of recent Trek novels faces a similar problem to a prospective NA/EDA reader. Say you're a casual Trek fan who happens to see Gods of Night on the shelf in your local bookstore. You're in the mood for a Trek story, so you pick it up and read the back cover. Captain Riker? Oh, right, he became a captain in that last crappy movie, didn't he? Captain Dax? Wasn't she a counselor? Have you missed something? You go rummaging around the tie-in SF section and find Fearful Symmetry. OK, maybe that clues you in that Ezri is thinking about command, but it raises its own questions, and does this come before Destiny? And what about these Titan books you saw?

The forum regulars here would say, No, this hypothetical person doesn't have to read those first, but she could if she wanted to. Or she could come back to them later. But this hypothetical reader doesn't have access to our knowledge; she's standing in a bookstore looking for some light reading. Given a choice between a Trek book she might understand and some other book she definitely would, what's she more likely to choose? We tend to ignore people like this when it comes to discussing the current line: they haven't read any of the recent books, so how can they judge the fiction accurately? This neatly obscures the important part: they're not reading recent books when they might be.

 

[Stevil2001]

Star Wars books dramatically outsell Star Trek books, judging by the bestseller lists in Locus, the news magazine of the SF publishing world. The Star Wars novel line is doing just fine.

I don't get that. The SW novels are pure drivel, minimal character and pulp scifi plots. I guess that there are more SW book-reading fans than ST book-reading fans. It's the only thing I can think of that makes them so successful.

Like all sweeping generalizations written, this is 100% factual.

 

[Baerbel Haddrell]

This discussion reminds me a bit of what I heard about comics: Now and again there is a wave of arguments from people voting for more stand-alones but I also read on PAD`s website that continuity still sells much better than stand-alones. I remember from Ordover`s days that he also said trilogies and other ongoing stories sell better than the rest.

In general, I also prefer continuity but certainly don`t mind a good stand-alone now and again.

I think the answer is to find the right balance. Some ongoing series do this better than others, meaning to be inviting to newcomers as well. New Frontier is very newcomer friendly. In each book PAD provides the basics of every character and there are a few books that can be seen as jump-on points. So far TNG Relaunch and Titan are doing well here, too.

I am a regular reader for the most part, even if I am behind here and there. The worst series for being transparent to newcomers is DS9 Relaunch. I don`t have the time and also not the motivation to re-read the series. The various factions connected with the Prophets are pretty much a blur to me by now. The same applies to Bajoran politics in general. I have forgotten who the new aliens introduced in previous books, like in Mission Gamma and Rising Son, are. I know that the series is full of subtle fineries but unfortunately, I think most of them are lost on me nowadays. I still like the series but my passionate enthusiasm I had years ago is gone.

I think Vanguard is in danger to go into the same unfortunate direction. There are only a few books but I can already see that with my growing to-read pile and my preference for other series, it might become less attractive to me in time.

SCE has never been a problem for me. Although I am far behind I know I can jump ahead wherever I want and will always feel at home in the series. I never had problems with Gorkon/Klingon Empire either.

 

[Therin of Andor]

All of which came out in the 90s.

Well, I didn't have a problem with "Before Dishonor" (despite the new continuing characters needing some tighter editing), but there aren't any other non-New Frontier PAD ST titles to list.

 

[Therin of Andor]

This discussion reminds me a bit of what I heard about comics: Now and again there is a wave of arguments from people voting for more stand-alones but I also read on PAD`s website that continuity still sells much better than stand-alones.

People are also attracted to TV soap operas at all points of their continuum. New people find "Days of Our Lives" every day, and old fans get fed up and stop watching every day. Or return after many months and try to pick up where they left off.

It's also why cop shows and medical dramas now have more obvious ongoing character arcs for their regular cast as well as whatever the story of the day happens to be. "Lost" is another great example. If you ignore the ongoing island plot, each episode's flashback story can be as engaging as an episode of any good anthology show.

I remember from Ordover`s days that he also said trilogies and other ongoing stories sell better than the rest.

Yep, I always thought it was really silly to bring out both thin parts of a duology in the same month, or two parts of a new trilogy. As in, why not save money and put them out as just one chunkier volume, and cut down on handling, cover art, and required display space? But, from a marketing standpoint, browsing customers are more likely to be attracted to two (or three) similarly-styled books that appear to be closely related, than two or three independent items.

 

[Trent Roman]

I don't get that. The SW novels are pure drivel, minimal character and pulp scifi plots. I guess that there are more SW book-reading fans than ST book-reading fans. It's the only thing I can think of that makes them so successful.

That, or, you know, there are readers out there who disagree with your assesment of the line as being vapid, irrelevant fluff.

Creditorly yours, the Rent Woman

 

[Therin of Andor]

But this hypothetical reader doesn't have access to our knowledge; she's standing in a bookstore looking for some light reading.

But... I was having many similar conversations with newbie ST browsers in Galaxy Bookshop in Sydney way back in the early 80s, when the few ST shelves had Bantam Blish adaptations and original ST, some Corgi UK editions of the same titles, Ballantine TAS adaptations, some Corgi UK editions of those, novelizations of ST TMP, II and III, and a few copies each of Pocket original novels.

"But I haven't seen all the episodes..."

"I've never seen TAS..."

"TMP was good but I hated Spock dying in ST II so I refused to go to any more movies..

"Why does Sulu have a moustache on the cover?"

"But this uniform is all wrong!"

"Aren't all the new novels sequels to the movies?" "Why not?"

And the classic, "But if these things never really happened on the show why do I need to read about them?"

Not to mention, "Can't I just borrow your copies?"

Sometimes browsers just have to take the plunge.

 

[Ktrek]

I know that the original question is a theoretical one, but would it even have been asked if PAD posted on here and if KRAD, or Christopher or David or Dayton slipped in their quality, would the question "Is it time for X to go?" get discussed?

Actually...YES it would have been asked. I am no respecter of persons just because they happen to frequent this site or other Star Trek book sites I am involved with. And if KRAD, Chris, David or Dayton decline in the quality of their offerings I would have posted the same.

I never would have guessed that this thread would turn into a discussion about stand alone VS arc driven stories but it has been interesting to read everyone's input. I have said elsewhere that I am beginning to be weary (note WEARY not LEARY) of these long story arc novels. Not that I don't enjoy them but to tell you the truth I am beginning to feel like there is to too much to keep track of. I never used to have to Google to refresh my memory as to who, what and where and whys but I am now finding myself doing so much more frequently. I buy and read every book but all the new characters and arcs are becoming overwhelming. Eventually I think this will hurt and impact Pocket in diminishing sales unless they can turn things back around. As I have said before I really love the DS9 relaunch and I thought it was an excellent idea but because it worked for that one series does not mean it should have been done to other series too. It's typical of media based entertainment to latch on to success and milk the cow until the cow is dead but it may also mean the death and the ultimate loss and decline of sales for Star Trek books in general.

In any case I doubt anyone really cares but I wanted to say my piece.

Kevin

 

[TerriO]

You're still presuming a lot of foreknowledge, Ian.

What about the people who weren't around for TOS, never really got into modern Trek, but are fans of J.J. and may want to check out a book or two to familiarize themselves with this universe before they go see the film?

I don't know about anyone else, but browsers in an SF bookstore are hardly the kind of casual readers I was thinking of. There is a new audience opening coming with the new movie. And yes, contrary to popular belief, there are going to be people out there who know very little about the Trek universe beyond what's made it into popular culture. J.J. is a hot commodity now. There is a very good chance that people who've never seen Trek before will be seeing the film. (Hard as I know that is for many to believe.) And if it hooks them, in a crap economy are they going to go for the DVDs for more adventures, or are they going to go for the much cheaper novels?

I'm talking the kind of readers who go to the chain bookstores instead of SF specialty stores. The kind of new readers this movie is quite possibly going to bring in because J.J.'s name's attached. These are the people for whom the movie will be their first exposure to Trek.

Could they just leave the theatre and jump into a modern TOS novel to keep following those characters they just saw on the movie screen (semantics, I know, but humor me here)? And, truth be told, we're not the ones to answer that question, because we haven't been new to the universe for years.

That's the question that, IMO, as writers we all need to ask ourselves when setting out onto a project in any series, let alone Trek.

 

[Julio Angel Ortiz]

I still like the series but my passionate enthusiasm I had years ago is gone.

That's pretty much how I feel about New Frontier. After the Fall and Missing in Action were just tepid for my tastes, and I gave up on the comic series after two issues. I won't be bothering with the series unless a fresh perspective (i.e. a new writer) comes on board.

Having said that, I don't think it's time for PAD to "go" anywhere. I enjoyed Before Dishonor for what it was and this was after giving up on New Frontier. If you don't like it, vote with your wallet. That's the best way to handle it.