• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Is it snobbery?

What I do find annoying (extremely so) is the kind of comment that either explicitly or implicitly states that anyone who did like the movie is somehow unintelligent. And that kind of condescension has been FAR more prevalent among the detractors of the film rather than the supporters. It's not even remotely close.
Yeah, but on the other side you have the comments that imply that anyone who didn't like the movie is boring, 'unfun', stuck up, takes it too seriously etc.
You're making a blanket statement to counter a specific one. It is not that all the people who dislike the film are saying those who like it are unintelligent. It is that a higher percentage of the "naysayers" has been condescending than of the supporters. I don't deny that supporters have made the kinds of comments you've listed. However, I strongly challenge the notion that they are, proportionally, as frequent as the naysayers' comments about supporters being stupid (or some variation thereof).
 
What I do find annoying (extremely so) is the kind of comment that either explicitly or implicitly states that anyone who did like the movie is somehow unintelligent. And that kind of condescension has been FAR more prevalent among the detractors of the film rather than the supporters. It's not even remotely close.
Yeah, but on the other side you have the comments that imply that anyone who didn't like the movie is boring, 'unfun', stuck up, takes it too seriously etc.
You're making a blanket statement to counter a specific one. It is not that all the people who dislike the film are saying those who like it are unintelligent. It is that a higher percentage of the "naysayers" has been condescending than of the supporters. I don't deny that supporters have made the kinds of comments you've listed. However, I strongly challenge the notion that they are, proportionally, as frequent as the naysayers' comments about supporters being stupid (or some variation thereof).
<in Garak's voice> Someone should do a study! :)
Well, I can't really speak much about it, i just recently joined the board, but I personally haven't seen much of that.
 
I don't think it's snobbery exactly. I tried to explain this in another thread so I'll just quote that here before adding some extra thoughts:

What I think it comes down to, ST-One, is that everybody draws a different line as to how much "silly" they'll tolerate and where they'll tolerate it. TOS purists tend to think of TOS as those 30 or so episodes that stand up as serious SF adventure, discounting the so-so outings and the duds. That's what I do when I'm feeling very "pure" (and with my history of drug use and whoremongering, TOS is about the only thing I get to feel pure about these days :cool:). That's why my positive reaction to this new movie has been qualified by statements that, taken on their own, make me sound as if I hated it and, sadly, as if I'm insulting guys like you, who have a different take on TOS than I do. I think that's what's happening here with trevanian--he takes Bond more seriously than we do because he came into it from a more serious entry point. By contrast, he'll enjoy "silly" elsewhere--Action Jackson or Battle Beyond the Stars, for example.

I'm the same way with Alien. That movie is on a par with 2001, Blade Runner, eXistenZ*, The Man Who Fell to Earth and a select few others as my idea of "serious" SF. As much as I can enjoy Aliens as an action flick, I think it is a woefully unworthy sequel to the original--a silly, comic book smash 'em up that remakes the original's sublime and elegant beast into a weird and disturbing (and not in agood way) hybrid of a termite mound and the Viet Cong. In short, I think it's a stupid movie. It does not follow, however, that I think those who like it--even those who prefer it the original--are stupid as well, just that they look for different things in SF movies.

*eXistenZ is far more serious and, paradoxically, far more playful examination of the Phildickian "what is real?" conundrum than the much more celebrated original Matrix movie, released around the same time. It bombed at the box office, got a lukewarm critical response and it is one of my all-time favorite films.

For many of us, Trek was aspirational SF. For me, the best episodes of TOS were almost invariably the ones that took themselves very seriously and, in so doing, grappled (with varying degrees of success) with somewhat heavy issues--at it's most successful, these were philosophical and psychological rather than political. And yes, turgid as it is in many spots, TMP gets high marks for asking existential questions and exploring the psychology of three men (Kirk, Spock and Decker) who make the mistake of running from the very things (the Enterprise, Kirk and Ilia, respectively) that can give their lives meaning. TWOK, while more action oriented, is also a pretty good exploration of accepting one's mortality and the morality of those closest to one (all but totally undone by TSFS but hey, what are ya gonna do?). By contrast, I love Star Wars but, aside from a few cautionary bits about how seductive giving into anger and hatred can be, see very little of equal depth in it.

This new movie, however, aims to be more like Star Wars in its scope and in its depth. For someone who thinks of Trek as being the 30 or so most "serious" episodes ("The Ultimate Computer," "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and, oh, I dunno, "Balance of Terror" to name three more or less at random) and those first two movies, this film is either going to be a let-down or require a serious re-examining* of what we think Star Trek is. For someone, however, with a more inclusive view of TOS, someone who sees it as being as much "Trouble with Tribbles" and TVH (two crowd-pleasing, light-hearted romps I have little use for) the cries that this movie is somehow "not Star Trek" is going to be a head-scratcher and yes, depending on how it is said, it is going to sound like snobbery--indeed, sometimes it will be snobbery, but not as often as you think. (This board is populated--on both sides of the divide--with very smart people who are used to being the smartest guy in the room and so a certain degree of pissing is to be expected, whether it's from Dennis on the one side or the dearly missed God Thing on the other.)

*For the record, I watched the movie for third time last night and, for the third time, thoroughly enjoyed myself. I've said this before (and I'm gonna keep saying it) but the movie reminded of such penumbral Trek lore as the story albums and Gold Key comics of my childhood. Turns out, they are Star Trek, too.
 
Last edited:
This board is populated--on both sides of the divide--with very smart people who are used to being the smartest guy in the room and so a certain degree of pissing is to be expected, whether it's from Dennis on the one side or the dearly missed God Thing on the other.

I don't miss God Thing at all, and I'd LIKE to start "missing" Dennis/Starship Polaris. There's a huge difference between being smart (and knowing it) and being an elitist jerk, and both of them fit the latter description to a T.
 
This board is populated--on both sides of the divide--with very smart people who are used to being the smartest guy in the room and so a certain degree of pissing is to be expected, whether it's from Dennis on the one side or the dearly missed God Thing on the other.

I don't miss God Thing at all, and I'd LIKE to start "missing" Dennis/Starship Polaris. There's a huge difference between being smart (and knowing it) and being an elitist jerk, and both of them fit the latter description to a T.

Eh, I get a kick out of both of them. But then, I love Harlan Ellison, too.;)
 
I agree with you about TWOK, certainly, and while I think TSFS is a bit more mixed thematically speaking, it's also strong in this regard.TWOK is actually one of the tightest scripts I've ever read - everything feeds into that theme, right down to Spock and McCoy's birthday gifts. I still put it at the top of my list of Trek films mainly for this reason, and can't imagine anything toppling it.

TSFS reads weakly on theme only if you take it in a 'stand alone' context, IMO. Taken alone, it plays like half a movie, which in many ways it is. Khan is Acts One and Two and TSFS is Acts Three and Four of a much larger picture.

You could actually extend the metaphor and include TVH as an Act Five and Six, since the themes started in WoK and continued in TSFS are really paid off and the story wrapped up in TVH.
 
I want to call it snobbery, because that's a fun way to belittle the people I don't agree with. ("You buncha snobs! I hold the more popular opinion, so yer just jjjjeaalous.")

But I suspect it's just that different people loved different things about Star Trek, and those that loved it for the exploration of Important Issues (although I suspect the old shows/movies weren't as Important as people remember them) were pissed off that this movie didn't do that. It wasn't the Star Trek they wanted to see, and I can respect that.

Sure, there are always old grumpy fans that hate ANYTHING new, but I'm sure a lot of people disliked this one because, well, it's not the part of Star Trek they loved. (My own husband was disappointed, and, not self-indentifying as a Star Trek fan, he had nothing to lose by the masses loving it. "That was fun... but it wasn't Star Trek.")
 
I thought the film did dumb things down but that doesn't mean I think people who watched and enjoyed it are on the same level of intelligence. Everyone has different tastes and wants when they go see a movie.
 
Don't get me wrong, I love Trek and have done since I was 9 in 1969, but
intellectualism of the the other Trek Movies :guffaw:

Dickens, Shakespeare, Bronte Sisters, Arthur Miller, Asimov etc, they ain't.

Perhaps not, but to dismiss them en mass as being bereft of intellecutal weight is not justified.

Take WoK/TSFS for example. I always pair them up becasue they may be two movies in form, but they are really one story.)

I don't have time right now to go on a massive typing binge and lay this out in full, so here's the "Cliff's Notes" version of my thesis:

The story is about Death, the many forms of thereof, and how we as individuals react to it. The major thematic device that showcases that is of course the Genesis Project. Again, I could expound for quite some time about the various aspects of Death covered just by the project itself, but suffice to say that ultimately it boils down to death being the doorway to new life.

More layers of exploration of the theme come from the various character arcs: Kirk, Spock, the crew as a unit, Khan, and the Klingons.

Kirk's most obvious death-related arc involves his confrontation of his own mortality, combined with his internal examination of "what could have been, but wasn't". He told Saavik that how one faced death was as important as how one faced life. Applying that to his own life, it was obvious that Kirk was seeing the flaws in the way he had been living his life (esp of late). Kirk never stopped until then to really contemplate death. ("I don't believe in the no win scenario [death metaphor].")

Spock of course, faced his death theme as a Vulcan should: logically. The interest in his death theme is to watch how it conflicts and intertwines with those of the others.

The crew as a unit was facing the death of their careers as they had known them. Some were being "beached", some were moving on to other things, but it still meant the death of the "Enterprise family", and that had an effect on them. In the last part of the film(s), they were facing the death of their careers period, due to the Genesis scandal. (this theme would come back in ST VI.)

Khan, of course, is the dark mirror of Kirk in so many ways. Khan is not just confronted with death, he is swamped by it, burried alive by it. The death of many of his followers after the explosion of Ceti Alpha VI. The death of his wife. The death of his very dreams, in that his "world to win" was reduced to a "no way out" struggle just to survive one more day.

Where as Kirk ultimately once again rejected death, Khan embraced death. Having died inside, he BECAME death. His nihillism is the counterpoint to Kirk's stubborn affirmation of fighting for life.

The Klingons were looking at death as well. Death of culture, death of independence. Kruge said it best: "warm sun, woman at your side, children playing, and overhead, flutering in the breeze is the flag of the Federation." Kruge feared that Genesis would kill the Klingon cultural soul, as it took away the reasons for them to struggle. (a common Trek theme, by the way). Paradoxically, he also EMBRACED Genesis, as the "ultimate weapon", one which not only killed your enemy, but made it as if he were never there to begin with. Not just subjugation, but obliteration.

Even (if in a very minor way) the Enterprise herself has a meaning to her death. Her day considered done, she is to "fade away", in the manner of old soldiers everywhere. To the extent that she was considered at least a metaphorical member of the cast/crew, her arc rejected "going quietly into the night", and gave her the ending befitting a proud and gallant warrior queen: in battle, striking one last blow against her enemies even in her death throes.

There are problably aspects of the theme I haven't even realized yet, and a few I have skipped over for time and space (like how all the deaths tie together to birth "new" life in the end).

I don't often say this, but... great post. :techman:
 
I don't need the cliff notes - we own the DVDs, saw each of the movies in first release at the cinema - I am vaguely familiar with their story lines.
 
Here's some snobbery for you--this guy feels about Trek almost exactly as I do. Note what he says about Star Wars.

I like this new movie a great deal but itr jettisons a lot of what Trek was. That stuff--the snobby stuff--never appealed to Abrams.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top