You can talk about the force till you're blue in the face but the movie makes it a specific plot point that he wasn't using it. Obi-Wan has to tell him to shut off his pilot brain and use the force instead before he finally makes the shot.
Is (guess who) a (insert something) Sue? (Spoilers)
- Thread starter Spot261
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You can talk about the force till you're blue in the face but the movie makes it a specific plot point that he wasn't using it. Obi-Wan has to tell him to shut off his pilot brain and use the force instead before he finally makes the shot.
Next will come the argument that Luke was just using part of the Force up to that point.
Marty Stu.
No, he's not. This is a silly argument.
Actually, it's the truth.
No, it's not. Remotely. Once more for posterity -
Luke fails throughout the movie. He screws up constantly. He is rescued from danger by other characters on numerous occasions:
Obi Wan saves him from the sand people.
Obi Wan saves him from stormtroopers.
Obi Wan saves him from the bar toughs.
Leia saves him (and Han & Chewie) from their poorly thought-out rescue attempt.
Han saves him from Vader.
Luke is given exactly ONE unique or special skill in the movie - he's a good pilot. This is established in dialogue on several occasions and therefore doesn't just come out of nowhere when Luke (somewhat improbably) takes the stick of an X-Wing during the Death Star assault.
When Luke is first aboard the Falcon - which is Han's ship - Han tells Luke to sit down, shut up and get out of the way.
Luke is shown to use the Force exactly once, after receiving hands-on training from Obi Wan. He can't just do it...just cuz.
Rey never makes any mistakes. She never needs anyone's help. In fact, she gets irritated when Finn tries to help her.
Rey has numerous special skills. She is an expert in hand-to-hand combat. She is an expert mechanic. She is an expert pilot. She speaks Wookiee and she speaks droids (um, why, exactly??)
When Rey is first aboard the Falcon - which is Han's ship - she flies it like a pro. Later, she shows that she knows more about how to fix the Falcon than Han or Chewie.
Rey never needs anyone to rescue her. When she's captured, she frees herself, even though her friends are risking their lives to try to save her.
Rey is never given any force training at all, yet she uses the force on several occasions. She uses a mind trick (how does she even know that's a thing that's even possible?) She uses telekinesis. She uses it for enhanced combat, besting a Force/lightsaber expert in a duel.
Now, I think some of this is perfectly okay and is justified. Just as Luke is allowed to have one special skill, some of Rey's skills are organic and earned. She obviously wound need to be able to defend herself on the dangerous, hard-scrabble world of Jakku. She makes her living scavenging parts and tinkering on ships, so I buy that she knows her way around a starship.
But the cumulative result of ALL of her special skills, combined with the fact that she's never, not once, permitted to screw up or need help to appear vulnerable, makes her into a flat, superheroic character who isn't dramatically or emotionally accessible. She's perfect. Perfect is the opposite of drama. It's boring. It's childish. It's bad writing.
If the Sue fits...
The amount of lying people insist on going to to paint Rey as a mary sue is always amazing.
'Expert pilot'? Han would've been screaming for her to give up the controls before she destroyed the ship if he'd been on the Falcon when she was flying it. She was good enough to survive, barely. There was nothing expert about it.
'Besting' an 'expert' in a lightsaber duel? That still never happened no matter how many times people insist on claiming otherwise. She survived a lightsaber duel against a wounded and emotionally wrecked Kylo Ren (who is not an expert by any definition) because the planet split apart between them and ended the fight without any winner.
She doesn't 'know more about how to fix the Falcon than it's rightful owners', she knows what modification has been made to the ship in the years since they haven't owned it (*because* she worked for the guy who modified it).
She knows what a mind trick is because she's heard the stories of Jedi before. She uses telekinesis instinctively in the exact same way Anakin used force precognition instinctively.
She speaks droid because *literally almost everyone* in the SW universe speaks droid of some kind.
And she is by no means 'perfect' or 'invulnerable'. She runs away. She uses poor judgement. She gets captured. She is violated by Ren. In TLJ she is violated by Snoke and she has to be rescued by Kylo.
Nothing I said is remotely a lie. Almost everything you said is a "yeah, but...." post-facto explanation that is not remotely in the text.
"Heard stories of the Jedi?" Gimme a break, that's some serious weaksauce right there. She's shown to be barely aware of the Jedi and almost totally ignorant of the concept of the Force.
"Everyone" speaks droid? She's literally the first human shown in the films to be able to converse with a droid fluently.
Her flying skills were not "expert" Gimme a break. That's just a willfull misreading. There's nothing she does that's any different than how we saw Han and Lando flying the ship while under attack.
Other than one scene of her randomly, inexplicably running into the woods, which is just straight up shitting writing, since there's no reason for her to run and no reason for her not to just return to her friends, give me ONE instance in TFA where she uses "bad judgment."
I'll wait.
Talk about "lying"...sheesh.
If this is the best you've got, you've lost. Big time.
Let's not make it personal.
Both Anakin and Obi-Wan can speak with R2 and R4, respectively.
I don't remember Luke having any issues communicating with R2.
Eh, I'm more iffy on that one. He looks to 3PO constantly in ANH, and then has the X-Wing translator for ROTJ. However, there is also the scene where he asks if R2 is alright and then says "Good" in response to the beeps. Could go either way.
Nope. It's because Rey can speak to BB-8 without issue and that apparently makes her a Mary Sue. Again...
Now you're being deliberately disingenuous (if not downright dishonest) since you know that was one in a list of ten things I listed about Rey that made her super powered.
You're allowed a couple of things. But with Rey, they reached a breaking point since they kept adding skill after skill and did NOTHING to balance that and humanize her with any corresponding flaws or errors.
So if you're going to cherry pick ONE thing instead of responding to the collective argument, it's clear it's because you can't.
I don't appreciate the accusation of being disingenuous and/or dishonest. I was making an observation-that's all. Largely because the Mary Sue debate is old and tired. And I'll take my wife's judgement on it (who writes and is well aware of the Mary Sue trope) over others.
There is not one word I can argue that will change people's minds. I've made my points. Calling me a liar is poor showing.
There is a thread about this. Take your bullshit over there.
No need to be hostile.
Yes there is. Every thread is going out of control because of these people. Something needs to be done. I'll be banned for this, so see you in a few months.