Is (guess who) a (insert something) Sue? (Spoilers)

[Campe]

So you are of the opinion that Luke is a liar when he repeatedly states he's a pilot over the course of the film and never flew a T16 before joining the rebellion as he claimed.

I can't necessarily speak for JoeZhang, but I can say that that there is a big difference between a bush pilot and a fighter pilot. Yes, Luke flew his T-16 on Tatooine and took potshots against rodents in the middle of the desert. If you listen to the Radio Drama, it suggests that he "threaded the Stone Needle." Fancy flying for sure. But, nowhere does it suggest that the sands of Tatooine had turbolasers shooting at him. Nowhere does it say that Biggs, Windy, Deak and Fixer were practicing dogfighting against him or that one of them was some sort of a secret Sith Lord.

I get that the idea is that its a fairy tale and that he uses the Force to help him through all of this, but if one were to look at this realistically, Luke Skywalker would have been killed in the opening salvos of the Battle of Yavin, forgotten to the history of the galaxy far far away and the Rebellion would have been destroyed. It doesn't lessen the movie to suggest that. Its just a point of fact.

 

[BillJ]

Is Rey an awesome character? Yes. Yes, she is.

 

[BillJ]

I can't necessarily speak for JoeZhang, but I can say that that there is a big difference between a bush pilot and a fighter pilot. Yes, Luke flew his T-16 on Tatooine and took potshots against rodents in the middle of the desert. If you listen to the Radio Drama, it suggests that he "threaded the Stone Needle." Fancy flying for sure. But, nowhere does it suggest that the sands of Tatooine had turbolasers shooting at him. Nowhere does it say that Biggs, Windy, Deak and Fixer were practicing dogfighting against him or that one of them was some sort of a secret Sith Lord.

I get that the idea is that its a fairy tale and that he uses the Force to help him through all of this, but if one were to look at this realistically, Luke Skywalker would have been killed in the opening salvos of the Battle of Yavin, forgotten to the history of the galaxy far far away and the Rebellion would have been destroyed. It doesn't lessen the movie to suggest that. Its just a point of fact.

Oh my God! Luke Skywalker is the Randy Quaid character from Independence Day!

 

[Campe]

Oh my God! Luke Skywalker is the Randy Quaid character from Independence Day!

LOL... I do keep wanting to make that comparison, but I've avoided it so far.

 

[fireproof78]

Is Rey an awesome character? Yes. Yes, she is.

Not that I wasn't already convinced of this but Rise of Skywalker pretty much cemented it.

 

[Alan Roi]

I can't necessarily speak for JoeZhang, but I can say that that there is a big difference between a bush pilot and a fighter pilot. Yes, Luke flew his T-16 on Tatooine and took potshots against rodents in the middle of the desert. If you listen to the Radio Drama, it suggests that he "threaded the Stone Needle." Fancy flying for sure. But, nowhere does it suggest that the sands of Tatooine had turbolasers shooting at him. Nowhere does it say that Biggs, Windy, Deak and Fixer were practicing dogfighting against him or that one of them was some sort of a secret Sith Lord.

I get that the idea is that its a fairy tale and that he uses the Force to help him through all of this, but if one were to look at this realistically, Luke Skywalker would have been killed in the opening salvos of the Battle of Yavin, forgotten to the history of the galaxy far far away and the Rebellion would have been destroyed. It doesn't lessen the movie to suggest that. Its just a point of fact.

Your offering opinion, not fact. We know the Death Star's turbolasers aren't going to be able to easily shoot down rebellion fighters because we're specifically told they aren't designed for that purpose. We know the rebellion fighters are highly automated because they have computer controlled systems and droids managing them, therefore making the pilot's specific skill less of an issue, because we are shown this. And speaking about realistic, many of the spitfire pilots in the Battle of Britain had very little training as well. And yet, they weren't all blown out of the sky in the opening salvos of the BoB.

Now I'm not claiming that Star Wars is a documentary. It's not. But Luke immediately being killed in the Death Star attack, is not a realistic scenario based on what the film shows us or tells us up to that point.

 

[Campe]

Your offering opinion, not fact. We know the Death Star's turbolasers aren't going to be able to easily shoot down rebellion fighters because we're specifically told they aren't designed for that purpose. We know the rebellion fighters are highly automated because they have computer controlled systems and droids managing them, therefore making the pilot's specific skill less of an issue, because we are shown this. And speaking about realistic, many of the spitfire pilots in the Battle of Britain had very little training as well. And yet, they weren't all blown out of the sky in the opening salvos of the BoB.

Now I'm not claiming that Star Wars is a documentary. It's not. But Luke immediately being killed in the Death Star attack, is not a realistic scenario based on what the film shows us or tells us up to that point.

Okay, I will concede the opinion over fact thing. However, I still find it highly unlikely. If skill weren't an issue, why doesn't Princess Leia or Mon Mothma jump into a cockpit and fly? We have seen pilots struggling at the controls in these movies, so the idea that skills are "less of an issue" is questionable, at least to me. And even if the defenses were designed against a larger assault, the towers with the turbolasers were problematic (Wedge: "What about that tower?" Luke: "You worry about those fighters. I'll worry about the tower.") Yeah, Artoo controls the power systems and is able to do repairs and yes, autopilot can be initiated, but looking back at The Phantom Menace, even little Ani realizes that if he doesn't get off of autopilot, it will get him killed.

As for the Battle of Britain, granted, I am not that versed in that particular part of history nor the mechanics of flying a plane, combat or otherwise but I can imagine there are considerable differences in atmospheric vs. outer space. There would be additional factors to deal with. Back when the movie Pearl Harbor was released, there were criticisms that the fighter planes were flying less like they should and more like an X-Wing. I'm not suggesting that I could do either, but I imagine that with drag that is not as much of an issue in space as it is in atmosphere, the fighters in the Battle of Britain would be facing certainly different challenges than those in the Battle of Yavin, just like the pilot of a T-16 Spacehopper would be facing different challenges than the pilot of a whatevermodelitis X-Wing Starfighter.

Regardless, the character survived. He saved the galaxy. Several times, in fact.

 

[Alan Roi]

Okay, I will concede the opinion over fact thing. However, I still find it highly unlikely. If skill weren't an issue, why doesn't Princess Leia or Mon Mothma jump into a cockpit and fly? We have seen pilots struggling at the controls in these movies, so the idea that skills are "less of an issue" is questionable, at least to me. And even if the defenses were designed against a larger assault, the towers with the turbolasers were problematic (Wedge: "What about that tower?" Luke: "You worry about those fighters. I'll worry about the tower.") Yeah, Artoo controls the power systems and is able to do repairs and yes, autopilot can be initiated, but looking back at The Phantom Menace, even little Ani realizes that if he doesn't get off of autopilot, it will get him killed.

As for the Battle of Britain, granted, I am not that versed in that particular part of history nor the mechanics of flying a plane, combat or otherwise but I can imagine there are considerable differences in atmospheric vs. outer space. There would be additional factors to deal with. Back when the movie Pearl Harbor was released, there were criticisms that the fighter planes were flying less like they should and more like an X-Wing. I'm not suggesting that I could do either, but I imagine that with drag that is not as much of an issue in space as it is in atmosphere, the fighters in the Battle of Britain would be facing certainly different challenges than those in the Battle of Yavin, just like the pilot of a T-16 Spacehopper would be facing different challenges than the pilot of a whatevermodelitis X-Wing Starfighter.

Regardless, the character survived. He saved the galaxy. Several times, in fact.

I would expect its easier for a less experienced fighter to deal with a tower than an opposing fighter squadron in any event it is a concern. And it's not like Luke's piloting skills ever saved the galaxy again, or in any way other than that very specialized attack run the rebels performed on the first Death Star.

 

[Campe]

I would expect its easier for a less experienced fighter to deal with a tower than an opposing fighter squadron in any event it is a concern. And it's not like Luke's piloting skills ever saved the galaxy again, or in any way other than that very specialized attack run the rebels performed on the first Death Star.

Both fair points.

 

[JoeZhang]

So you are of the opinion that Luke is a liar when he repeatedly states he's a pilot over the course of the film and never flew a T16 before joining the rebellion as he claimed.

No I'm of the mind that is the equal of a man who can drive thinking he can leap into an F1 car and win. Being a pilot is the basis of becoming a fighter pilot but not the same thing. He would have died horrifically at the start of the battle - there would not even be enough time for him to the basics.

I see you have addressed some of this above but I'm unconvinced.

 

[J.T.B.]

Your offering opinion, not fact. We know the Death Star's turbolasers aren't going to be able to easily shoot down rebellion fighters because we're specifically told they aren't designed for that purpose. We know the rebellion fighters are highly automated because they have computer controlled systems and droids managing them, therefore making the pilot's specific skill less of an issue, because we are shown this. And speaking about realistic, many of the spitfire pilots in the Battle of Britain had very little training as well. And yet, they weren't all blown out of the sky in the opening salvos of the BoB.

No, but they had a vastly increased chance of being blown out of the sky. And even if they weren't, they didn't contribute much until they had more experience. Even in the darkest days of the BoB, Fighter Command tried to first assign inexperienced pilots to "C" squadrons in the north, where action was less frequent and they could build up some operational flying time before going into combat. And at that point, the pilots had about eight months of training (basic military, primary flying, advanced flying). It's hard to imagine what it would be like with Luke's level of training (a day, two days?).

"I tried to take up my new pilots once or twice before taking them on ops. It was like sentencing them to death if I didn't, and not far short of it even if I did."

Sqn Ldr James Leathart, quoted by Richard Hough, The Battle of Britain, 1990.​

In general, German pilots enjoyed more thorough training and a longer period of pre-combat flying, which explains their higher kill ratios in battle and their better survival rate.

Richard Overy, The Battle of Britain: The Myth and the Reality, 2010.​

It is almost unquestioned among military historians and analysts that individuals' first experience in combat is so unfamiliar, overwhelming and terrifying that they have little chance of doing anything effective. They are lucky if they can just keep themselves alive, and largely dependent on experienced personnel to survive. It takes a few exposures to get used to what's happening and keep ones head about them.

Now I'm not claiming that Star Wars is a documentary. It's not. But Luke immediately being killed in the Death Star attack, is not a realistic scenario based on what the film shows us or tells us up to that point.

Well, it's a story template from myths and legends. Luke is a hidden prince, and princes are better than normal people at everything, and once they get to their rightful place they take over and set everything right. But instead of ancient warriors or knights with swords and lances, the template is applied to something that's supposed to be technologically far superior to what we know today. Today a US Navy pilot is in training for about two years before reaching an operational squadron. But piloting an X-wing in battle, successfully, apparently takes less training than flying a Spitfire or Hurricane in 1940. Not especially believable, to me. Even as a kid in '77, I remember thinking "What, he's a fighter pilot now?"

 

[Alan Roi]

No, but they had a vastly increased chance of being blown out of the sky. And even if they weren't, they didn't contribute much until they had more experience. Even in the darkest days of the BoB, Fighter Command tried to first assign inexperienced pilots to "C" squadrons in the north, where action was less frequent and they could build up some operational flying time before going into combat. And at that point, the pilots had about eight months of training (basic military, primary flying, advanced flying). It's hard to imagine what it would be like with Luke's level of training (a day, two days?).

"I tried to take up my new pilots once or twice before taking them on ops. It was like sentencing them to death if I didn't, and not far short of it even if I did."

Sqn Ldr James Leathart, quoted by Richard Hough, The Battle of Britain, 1990.​

In general, German pilots enjoyed more thorough training and a longer period of pre-combat flying, which explains their higher kill ratios in battle and their better survival rate.

Richard Overy, The Battle of Britain: The Myth and the Reality, 2010.​

It is almost unquestioned among military historians and analysts that individuals' first experience in combat is so unfamiliar, overwhelming and terrifying that they have little chance of doing anything effective. They are lucky if they can just keep themselves alive, and largely dependent on experienced personnel to survive. It takes a few exposures to get used to what's happening and keep ones head about them.



Well, it's a story template from myths and legends. Luke is a hidden prince, and princes are better than normal people at everything, and once they get to their rightful place they take over and set everything right. But instead of ancient warriors or knights with swords and lances, the template is applied to something that's supposed to be technologically far superior to what we know today. Today a US Navy pilot is in training for about two years before reaching an operational squadron. But piloting an X-wing in battle, successfully, apparently takes less training than flying a Spitfire or Hurricane in 1940. Not especially believable, to me. Even as a kid in '77, I remember thinking "What, he's a fighter pilot now?"

Again, Luke states that he is a pilot. And then he's put in an X-Wing by people who have to know who can or can't fly their fighters. And yes, the job was tailored to his skillset, so he didn't actually have to do a lot more than he already knew how to do. That's what the movie tells us and that's what the movie shows us. You want to insist that it takes someone 2 years to learn how to fly an X-wing. Show me where that's stated in the movies and your comments above will be more credible.

i agree he's not the greatest pilot in the galaxy, hell, he crashes his snowspeeder and X-Wing in the next film. but in A New Hope, he doesn't have to be the greatest pilot in the galaxy, because he's not up against the greatest fighter defenses in the galaxy as i point out above. All he has to do is remain calm and demonstrate that he isn't a liar.

 

[Grendelsbayne]

Again, Luke states that he is a pilot. And then he's put in an X-Wing by people who have to know who can or can't fly their fighters. And yes, the job was tailored to his skillset, so he didn't actually have to do a lot more than he already knew how to do. That's what the movie tells us and that's what the movie shows us. You want to insist that it takes someone 2 years to learn how to fly an X-wing. Show me where that's stated in the movies and your comments above will be more credible.

i agree he's not the greatest pilot in the galaxy, hell, he crashes his snowspeeder and X-Wing in the next film. but in A New Hope, he doesn't have to be the greatest pilot in the galaxy, because he's not up against the greatest fighter defenses in the galaxy as i point out above. All he has to do is remain calm and demonstrate that he isn't a liar.

He's up against more than just the death star's defenses. In order to get to the death star in the first place he has to survive getting past the well-trained, professional tie fighter pilots. Plenty of the other x-wing pilots in the movie (with more training) don't survive.

 

[Alan Roi]

He's up against more than just the death star's defenses. In order to get to the death star in the first place he has to survive getting past the well-trained, professional tie fighter pilots. Plenty of the other x-wing pilots in the movie (with more training) don't survive.

Well trained professional tie fighter pilots... way too many oxymorons there. Next thing your going to tell me is storm troopers are well trained and professional marksmen. The tie fighters also don't show up immediately, As for the rest of the defenses, Both sides of the death star battle understand that the death star's defenses aren't designed to deal with fighters. And without the intervention of the Millenium Falcon, Luke is as dead as the rest. And let's not forget that even Darth Vade is compelled to comment "The Force is strong in this one." But I guess, where it comes to the context of Star Wars, you don't believe in that superstitious nonsense.

 

[J.T.B.]

Again, Luke states that he is a pilot. And then he's put in an X-Wing by people who have to know who can or can't fly their fighters. And yes, the job was tailored to his skillset, so he didn't actually have to do a lot more than he already knew how to do. That's what the movie tells us and that's what the movie shows us.

Yes it does, I just don't find it remotely believable. Military pilots train to be part of a "machine" where everyone knows the way things are done so they can be organized and employed effectively. Candidates who already have civilian pilot licenses go through the exact same training as someone with zero experience. We know from his talk about the Academy that Luke has no training within a larger organization.

You want to insist that it takes someone 2 years to learn how to fly an X-wing.

Nowhere did I say that. All I said was that it takes less training time to be assigned to fly an X-wing in combat than it did to be assigned to an RAF fighter in 1940, as the Battle of Britain had been presented as a "realistic" example. If someone finds that credible, OK. I don't.

 

[fireproof78]

Next thing your going to tell me is storm troopers are well trained and professional marksmen.

Now, as much as I don't like randomly linking YT videos I am going to do it here. Largely because Mr. Henry is very good at his analysis of stormtroopers and their accuracy:

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Even if we are not going to state that all troopers are marksmen, there is more than sufficient evidence that the stormtroopers with Vader are capable.

 

[JD]

Well trained professional tie fighter pilots... way too many oxymorons there. Next thing your going to tell me is storm troopers are well trained and professional marksmen. The tie fighters also don't show up immediately, As for the rest of the defenses, Both sides of the death star battle understand that the death star's defenses aren't designed to deal with fighters. And without the intervention of the Millenium Falcon, Luke is as dead as the rest. And let's not forget that even Darth Vade is compelled to comment "The Force is strong in this one." But I guess, where it comes to the context of Star Wars, you don't believe in that superstitious nonsense.

Flying the X-Wing is a very small part of a combat mission like the destruction of the Death Star. He'd also have to deal with flying as part of a team, and the actual combat itself, neither of which he appears to have any experience with.
He might have liked to shoot poor little rodents back on Tattooine, but that isn't necessarily going to prepare him to up against armed starfighters and a space station's defenses, along side other a squadron of other armed starfighters.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I'm pretty sure it's like dusting crops.

 

[Alan Roi]

Flying the X-Wing is a very small part of a combat mission like the destruction of the Death Star. He'd also have to deal with flying as part of a team, and the actual combat itself, neither of which he appears to have any experience with.
He might have liked to shoot poor little rodents back on Tattooine, but that isn't necessarily going to prepare him to up against armed starfighters and a space station's defenses, along side other a squadron of other armed starfighters.

I don't remember him shown to be "the best pilot in the galaxy" in that battle. Did you spot much effective "team" fighting once the ties showed up? And he has one benefit that everyone seems super eager to be suffering amnesia about:

"The force is strong in this one," - Darth Vader.

How many fighter pilots on Earth have that?

 

[Nerys Myk]

I don't remember him shown to be "the best pilot in the galaxy" in that battle. Did you spot much effective "team" fighting once the ties showed up? And he has one benefit that everyone seems super eager to be suffering amnesia about:

"The force is strong in this one," - Darth Vader.

How many fighter pilots on Earth have that?

Hans Von Hammer